What Are You Listening To?

[CumBloodSucker]

9 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I've just never heard of Lack of Interest or Anubi. Or A? Just A? And I've never really gotten heavily into MDB either but I don't hate them or anything.

Lack of interest was a random discovery when I deep dived into Man is the bastard who are, of what I know, one of the pioneers of powerviolence. Man is the bastard members had a noise/hardcore sideproject, imaginatively, called the Bastard noise and they had a split with Lack of interest. Anubi was another random pick when visiting a record store.

My dying bride is a old favorite. Spinned the Lies I sire which I again just randomly picked up when it was new and it still works. MDB works same way as Type-o-negative or any good doom metal for "resting" after days or weeks of listening blackened, cumblood blasted, shit paved black/death, crust, noise/stenchcore filled barbaric caveman filth. MDB almost sounds artistic for the occasion until it's time to jump back in to the filth and kick some ass!

My dying bride - Echoes from a hollow soul

The Bastard noise - Culture of monsters

 

[Nasty_Cabbage]

Dun Ringill - Where The Old Gods Play

▶︎ Where The Old Gods Play - Act 1 | Dun Ringill (bandcamp.com)

Reminds me of Surrounded By Thieves era High on Fire.

[JamesT]

19 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

We'll get Archspire on the next tech death shuttle. This one's gonna have to be a bit bigger like Noah's Ark so we can fit them all on there. We'll gather all the tech death bands two by two and blast them into outer space. Large crowds will gather to wave goodbye. We can let the drummers stay here with us on Earth though because they can probably be retrained to play black and death metal. No sense letting perfectly good drummers go to waste.

 

At least Jimbo understands even if the Ockers don't. Titans might be better than a lot of other things, not saying it's a bad record per se, but it's not better than Overkill. And it's not in the same stratum with some of Testie's older stuff as far as most (not all apparently) of us older guys would be concerned. We all love Chuck, but if you can't hear that his voice is shot at 62 then I don't even know what to tell you.

But naturally we all have our own rankings for things that make perfect sense to each of us and that's cool. Jimbo's young dude perspective rankings where all these bands' newer albums are at the top and their older classics are at the bottom makes sense to him and that's all that matters. To him. But if you really think Testament's last 4 are their best 4 I have to laught at that. I respect you brah, but from this old guy's perspective that's just funny.

Alright Jimbo, now that we've got all the Testie talk out of the way, let's get down to business. From one Overkill Fanboi to another, please explain to me how you think Ironbound and Grinding Wheel and WDA are on the same level with albums chock full of great songs like Wings or Electric, or even Killbox or Bloodletting, much less Horror or TO. Go have a listen if you need to, I'll wait. Take your time, take a few days if you need to. When you're ready let's talk specifics.

I'll start with my assessment: Ironbound, which came right on the heels of two of their absolute worst albums, contained 3 really good standout tracks: The title track, Green & Black and the closer The SRC. All the songs in between were forgettable throwaway cookie-cutter bullshit. IMHO. It's like they were in DD's studio one night watching hockey and drinking beer and someone said ok these songs we've got aren't really that good so maybe if we ratchet up the tempos and play them really super fast people won't notice how bad they suck? Pissed me off when they played Bring Me the Night live last year cuz I fucking hate that song. That's not the Overkill I know and love.

Always great to get a chance to talk Overkill with a fellow Fanboi - which describes me precisely!  I actually just recently listened through the entire 20-album catalog again - great timing!  

For me, production quality comes majorly into play.  If the sound is thin, lacking in any sort of "bottom end", or is just generally lacking in "crunch", it's much more difficult for me to get into the music, personally.  Having said that, songwriting is what's most important, so I do try and listen to the music with that being the ultimate lens through which I view (or hear) it.  

For me, "Ironbound" is an absolutely phenomenal release, from beginning to end.  "The Green and Black" kicks things off, and the title track and my personal favorite, "Bring Me the Night", continue the blazing trail.  The final 3 tracks, "In Vain", "Killing for a Living", and "The SRC" are crushers to end the album.  It's a stone cold classic in every sense in my book.  As great as it is, "The Electric Age" is my favorite Overkill album of all, which is incredible, given the album it follows.  The modern crunch of these recent albums does have a lot to do with it, but I do genuinely think the songwriting is legendary.  The material remains interesting and engaging all the way through, which certainly isn't the case for a lot of generic thrash bands, whose music I forget within minutes of listening to it.  The appeal of repeated listens is something I use to judge how much I like the music, in any case.

As for their classic era when compared with their modern output, I absolutely love the first 5 albums.  As I've mentioned before, I have "Taking Over", "The Years of Decay", and "Horrorscope" all in my top 5 of my Overkill discography ranking.  In fact, my top 11 consists of those classic first 5 albums and their most recent 6 albums, so I have a solid mix of their catalog represented at the top.  "Under the Influence", for example, has incredible songs, but the production is so flat, the songs aren't done the justice they deserve.  Perhaps a reissue is in the works!

"Taking Over" is a glorious ride from beginning to end.  I'd have zero issue whatsoever with anyone who ranked that album as #1.  "Deny the Cross", "Wrecking Crew", and "Fear His Name" comprise perhaps the best 3-headed monster to begin any album in the catalog.  "The Years of Decay" is probably the most diverse album they've ever done and is legendary and deserving of all of the praise it gets.  "Horrorscope" does a great job of mixing up speed and slower tempos but never sacrifices ferocity.  I have different things I like about each album, regardless of which era it falls in.

"Killbox 13" is a highly underrated album and seemed to herald a return to a more thrash-y sound, although the two albums that followed it didn't exactly continue in that vein.  "Ironbound" was the true return to thrash a few years later.  

"The Grinding Wheel" is a special album.  It changed some things up from the trilogy that immediately preceded it, with a lot of NWOBHM (specifically Iron Maiden) influences mixed in with the thrash.  The longer, more complex song structures really came together very nicely.  "The Wings of War" was an album that really grew on me after a few listens ("Last Man Standing" is just a fierce opener).

Anyway, I know you didn't come for a rundown of the catalog!  I would just say that songs like "Ironbound", "Bring Me the Night", "Electric Rattlesnake", "Drop the Hammer Down", "PIG", "Bitter Pill", "Shine On", "Mean, Green, Killing Machine", "Last Man Standing", "Head of a Pin", "Scorched", and "Know Her Name" all stand up to anything in the classic era, both in terms of interest level and genuinely masterful songwriting, which just goes to show how incredible this band is.  

I think nostalgia often is the driver behind the love people have for certain albums - and that's perfectly understandable!  Nostalgia is a wonderful thing.  However, the songs are recorded at a specific point in time, and they are what they are.  Nostalgia doesn't have any bearing on the actual quality of the material.  So I try and remove that from the equation when evaluating for myself what I think of newer material as it's released.  The classic era is fantastic, because the songs truly hold up.  The newer era is just as good - even better in some cases - for the exact same reason.  The songs are well written and well executed, and they never, ever get old!  

I appreciate your giving me the opportunity to Fanboi in spectacular fashion over my favorite thrash band of all time!  I'm going to play a lot of Overkill through the headphones on this glorious Friday!

I truly enjoy our interactions on here and look forward to more of your thoughts!  Have a great Friday!

[Nasty_Cabbage]

NP: Sodality - Benediction part 1

▶︎ Benediction part 1 | SODALITY (bandcamp.com)

 I get that this style of black metal rewards a patient ear, and that the real rewards are in coming to know the sort of 'hidden in plain sight' ins and outs of the material, but the tech death loving part of me can't help but feel like if they pushed the pace just a little bit it would be worlds more enjoyable. Maybe a few extra lines per verse or cut just a little of the repetition. Still, there's a lot here to like. The bass (especially on the second track)  has an unusually rich tone for black metal which so often shirks that portion of things, and it contributes to the songs themselves with it's own melodies and counterpoints to the guitar. That's practically unheard of in this style. The sound is dense, but not too dense, and the atmosphere manages to tightrope it's way between exaggerated dramatics and stoic lifelessness with measured sound musical sensibilities, and a wide variety of harsh vocal techniques. Get those song lengths down and it'd be a superb listen. As it is it's still good.

[agamerwholovesmetal]

Takeing a break from loudwires thrash list to listen to this

I never knew how much I need sega genesis thrash covers in my life before this

[Nasty_Cabbage]

42 minutes ago, agamerwholovesmetal said:

Takeing a break from loudwires thrash list to listen to this

I never knew how much I need sega genesis thrash covers in my life before this

That's pretty fun. Has me thinking of what type of game they'd set to MoP. I'm thinking a contra style shooter would be appropriate.

NP: Nebula Orionis - Aether

▶︎ Aether | Nebula Orionis (bandcamp.com)

Every so often stuff like this sounds pretty decent to me. It's pretty much what you'd want from a more digestible instrumental Oltreluna.

[agamerwholovesmetal]

3 minutes ago, Nasty_Cabbage said:

That's pretty fun. Has me thinking of what type of game they'd set to MoP. I'm thinking a contra style shooter would be appropriate.

I could also see them using it for a castlevania game

[Nasty_Cabbage]

1 hour ago, agamerwholovesmetal said:

I could also see them using it for a castlevania game

Maybe. It might be odd to have anything, but symphonic metal in any franchise whose cornerstone is Symphony of the Night though. Did you ever play Valfaris? That soundtrack was amazing, and the game was excellent too, if you dig the retro thing.

NP:  夢遊病者 (Sleepwalker) - Skopofoboexoskelett

▶︎ Skopofoboexoskelett | 夢遊病者 | Sentient Ruin Laboratories (bandcamp.com)

Woah. Alright this is what I'm talking about when I say I've got nothing but respect for experimental metal-adjacent things. If I want something out there on the fringes I want something way out there on the fringes, and this fits the bill. This isn't just some weird psychedelia with some metal thrown in for a garnish. These are whole and fully realized songs. Every influence is fused and played consecutively without breaking the song into Between the Buried and Me style "sections" of different genres. It all works together and at once and boy is it weird. Excellent for what it is, and recommended for the musically adventurous of spirit only.

[agamerwholovesmetal]

10 minutes ago, Nasty_Cabbage said:

Maybe. It might be odd to have anything, but symphonic metal in any franchise whose cornerstone is Symphony of the Night though. Did you ever play Valfaris? That soundtrack was amazing, and the game was excellent too, if you dig the retro thing.

I hadn't heard of it intel now but thanks for bringing it to my attention it looks cool.

[Hungarino]

Concilium - Sky Burial

This is solid, engaging blackened death done fucking right. 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

5 hours ago, JamesT said:

Always great to get a chance to talk Overkill with a fellow Fanboi - which describes me precisely!  I actually just recently listened through the entire 20-album catalog again - great timing!  

For me, production quality comes majorly into play.  If the sound is thin, lacking in any sort of "bottom end", or is just generally lacking in "crunch", it's much more difficult for me to get into the music, personally.  Having said that, songwriting is what's most important, so I do try and listen to the music with that being the ultimate lens through which I view (or hear) it.  

For me, "Ironbound" is an absolutely phenomenal release, from beginning to end.  "The Green and Black" kicks things off, and the title track and my personal favorite, "Bring Me the Night", continue the blazing trail.  The final 3 tracks, "In Vain", "Killing for a Living", and "The SRC" are crushers to end the album.  It's a stone cold classic in every sense in my book.  As great as it is, "The Electric Age" is my favorite Overkill album of all, which is incredible, given the album it follows.  The modern crunch of these recent albums does have a lot to do with it, but I do genuinely think the songwriting is legendary.  The material remains interesting and engaging all the way through, which certainly isn't the case for a lot of generic thrash bands, whose music I forget within minutes of listening to it.  The appeal of repeated listens is something I use to judge how much I like the music, in any case.

As for their classic era when compared with their modern output, I absolutely love the first 5 albums.  As I've mentioned before, I have "Taking Over", "The Years of Decay", and "Horrorscope" all in my top 5 of my Overkill discography ranking.  In fact, my top 11 consists of those classic first 5 albums and their most recent 6 albums, so I have a solid mix of their catalog represented at the top.  "Under the Influence", for example, has incredible songs, but the production is so flat, the songs aren't done the justice they deserve.  Perhaps a reissue is in the works!

"Taking Over" is a glorious ride from beginning to end.  I'd have zero issue whatsoever with anyone who ranked that album as #1.  "Deny the Cross", "Wrecking Crew", and "Fear His Name" comprise perhaps the best 3-headed monster to begin any album in the catalog.  "The Years of Decay" is probably the most diverse album they've ever done and is legendary and deserving of all of the praise it gets.  "Horrorscope" does a great job of mixing up speed and slower tempos but never sacrifices ferocity.  I have different things I like about each album, regardless of which era it falls in.

"Killbox 13" is a highly underrated album and seemed to herald a return to a more thrash-y sound, although the two albums that followed it didn't exactly continue in that vein.  "Ironbound" was the true return to thrash a few years later.  

"The Grinding Wheel" is a special album.  It changed some things up from the trilogy that immediately preceded it, with a lot of NWOBHM (specifically Iron Maiden) influences mixed in with the thrash.  The longer, more complex song structures really came together very nicely.  "The Wings of War" was an album that really grew on me after a few listens ("Last Man Standing" is just a fierce opener).

Anyway, I know you didn't come for a rundown of the catalog!  I would just say that songs like "Ironbound", "Bring Me the Night", "Electric Rattlesnake", "Drop the Hammer Down", "PIG", "Bitter Pill", "Shine On", "Mean, Green, Killing Machine", "Last Man Standing", "Head of a Pin", "Scorched", and "Know Her Name" all stand up to anything in the classic era, both in terms of interest level and genuinely masterful songwriting, which just goes to show how incredible this band is.  

I think nostalgia often is the driver behind the love people have for certain albums - and that's perfectly understandable!  Nostalgia is a wonderful thing.  However, the songs are recorded at a specific point in time, and they are what they are.  Nostalgia doesn't have any bearing on the actual quality of the material.  So I try and remove that from the equation when evaluating for myself what I think of newer material as it's released.  The classic era is fantastic, because the songs truly hold up.  The newer era is just as good - even better in some cases - for the exact same reason.  The songs are well written and well executed, and they never, ever get old!  

I appreciate your giving me the opportunity to Fanboi in spectacular fashion over my favorite thrash band of all time!  I'm going to play a lot of Overkill through the headphones on this glorious Friday!

I truly enjoy our interactions on here and look forward to more of your thoughts!  Have a great Friday!

Actually Jimmy T, I did kinda want a rundown of the catalog. I wanted to know which songs I'm sleeping on from the newer era starting in 2010. I love Wings of War and I've played it enough that I know all the songs and think it's a great album. I'd put it ahead of UtI from the first 5. So I don't think nostalgia is the only factor in play here. I've come to like Electric Age quite a bit as well for the same reason as WoW, memorable songs. That album wasn't immediate for me I had to listen to it a bunch of times first before the songs stood out. So I think this shows that I'm willing to keep an open mind and at least give the newer stuff a fair shake.

I don't do this with too many bands. Usually once a band releases a couple of duds I'm done with them at that point and will just stick to the earlier albums that I know and love. Overkill gets a pass from me for their several subpar records because they've still managed to release at Ieast 2 great albums in 4 separate decades. How many bands can truthfully say that? Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Metallica, Anthrax, Exodus, Testament, Slayer and Megastaine can't say that. 

I've just been unable to see the greatness in most of the tracks on Ironbound, Grinding Wheel and White Devil Armory. I was hoping you'd give me some specific song titles from the newer stuff to point me in the right direction and you have. So I'm gonna go listen to these 3 more recent records that I'm not as familiar with and have not been able to get onboard with yet again starting with Ironbound and I'm gonna pay attention to those songs you named. I totally understand people who dismiss the material on the newer Kill albums as generic, cookie cutter and indistinct, because that's how I feel about these 3 albums. But the fact that Wings of War and Electric Age have broken through to me and revealed how good their songs really are, makes me wonder if further listens might change my perspective on any or all of the other 3.

I agree with you about production in principle. But the only three Kill albums that I feel have really been irreparably hampered by poor production are: Under the Influence, WFO and RelixIV. At one time I might have also said the debut, (and so many thrash bands had shit sounding low budget debut albums back then) but I've learned to really enjoy that more raw sound over the years. All their other albums are fine, their production (while not always perfect) is not an issue for me. I find it's only an issue when it distracts me from the music. Many albums (by any band, not just Overkill) have production that sounds a bit different, maybe not ideal, but while listening to it I just get used to it and by the 2nd song I've become immersed in it and have forgotten all about it. If the music's good enough that'll happen anyway. Sometimes the music's not good enough to overcome it.

So I'll have to do some listening and get back to you James Thomas millennial Ovekill fan extraordinaire. This shall not be the end of our Overkill discussion. You're my only ally here who truly understands and appreciates the real greatness of my Jersey boys. The fact that you love Killbox and call it underrated shows that you get it. That's my litmus test, Killbox 13 and also Bloodletting. If you like those two then you're a real Overkill fan, because most casuals would only say the first 5 and Ironbound. And to a lesser extent I Hear Black, which truly is a great (yes I said great) album, is a litmus test I use as well. I know that people who falsely claim that one sucks will never truly get the greatness of Overkill. But that's OK, they're just a band among thousands of other metal bands, and everyone has their own favorite bands for their own personal reasons. It's just always fun for me when I run across another Overkill fanatic, and you're not even from NY/NJ.

[Serpentboi1992]

[GoatmasterGeneral]

6 hours ago, Nasty_Cabbage said:

NP: Sodality - Benediction part 1

 I get that this style of black metal rewards a patient ear, and that the real rewards are in coming to know the sort of 'hidden in plain sight' ins and outs of the material, but the tech death loving part of me can't help but feel like if they pushed the pace just a little bit it would be worlds more enjoyable. Maybe a few extra lines per verse or cut just a little of the repetition. Still, there's a lot here to like. The bass (especially on the second track)  has an unusually rich tone for black metal which so often shirks that portion of things, and it contributes to the songs themselves with it's own melodies and counterpoints to the guitar. That's practically unheard of in this style. The sound is dense, but not too dense, and the atmosphere manages to tightrope it's way between exaggerated dramatics and stoic lifelessness with measured sound musical sensibilities, and a wide variety of harsh vocal techniques. Get those song lengths down and it'd be a superb listen. As it is it's still good.

Alright Le Cabbage, I'm listening to this one now and my first impression is I like it. Not sure if I love it, but I definitely like it a lot. My question to you is this: when you say "this style of black metal" which style would you be referring to? What are the different styles or categories of black metal in your view, and which one would you put these Poles in?

Not trying to be argumentative or anything, I've very much enjoyed your participation and added perspective here on the board of late, you've been an absoutely fantastic new addition to our quirky little group imho. (don't ghost us!) You come across as a smart, educated, well spoken guy who seems prone to somewhat in-depth analysis and long form dissertations about music, which makes you someone I really enjoy reading and interacting with. (If only our tastes were just a wee bit closer in alignment, but I'm not compalining here! People bringing different perspectives to the table are a big positive in my book) So that's why I'm just trying to start a slightly more thoughtful, cerebral conversation about black metal here.

Because a guy like me who can get so passionate about stuff, I can often become so distracted by the visceral, emotional response I'm having to this music that I'm not always able to step back and look at the bigger picture and properly analyze things calmly, logically and objectively without letting my emotions get in the way. Conversations with other dudes who get as emotional as I do over music are not always as stimulating or productive, because they often tend to stay on more of a "Dude this shit killls so fucking hard!!" level where we're essentially high-fiving ourselves and throwing our proverbial horns in each other's faces. And that's fun too, but sometimes a deeper dive and a more introspective approach can be quite rewarding.

The album's over now, yeah this was pretty cool. I'll deffo be coming back to this later or over the weekend. Have not an ounce of slav in me but I love Polish black metal even if this album is fairly atypical for that decription. I didn't find it to be that dense, it wasn't a solid wall of noise at all, there was plenty of air here, there were dynamics in play. And this is good. But that's coming from someone who listens to a lot of brick wall black metal and norsecore so maybe that's why I don't see this as particularly dense.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hungarino said:

Concilium - Sky Burial

This is solid, engaging blackened death done fucking right. 

Hell yeah it is! 🤘🐐😈🐐🤘

[Thatguy]

6 hours ago, Nasty_Cabbage said:

NP: Sodality - Benediction part 1

Nice bass tone I agree, but static. Where's the riffs? Still, worth a longer listen later.

 

4 hours ago, Nasty_Cabbage said:

NP:  夢遊病者 (Sleepwalker) - Skopofoboexoskelett

The original Thatguy is back to say - in Phil Gould's voice - no, no, no, no, no. This is just a jam with some exotic instruments chucked in. No fun at all.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

Nice bass tone I agree, but static. Where's the riffs? Still, worth a longer listen later.

Mornin' Doc! Do you sir not listen to an abundance of essentially riffless music? I generally prefer black metal that could be characterized as riffy myself, and there are riffs here, but this is not that. But there was more than enough interesting stuff going on here to hold my interest while I typed. I still don't reallly understand why you use static as a negative. I might not even understand what you mean by that when describing a piece of music.

Static: lacking in movement, action, or change, especially in a way viewed as undesirable or uninteresting.

Alright, well when I read that Oxford dictionary definition of the word it seems crystal fucking clear what you mean by static and I have no idea why it wasn't this clear to me before. In this case I disagree. I think there were dynamics here and it's the spaces in between the notes where stuff like this excels. I'm the first one to call out atmospheric bands that are lacking in the riffs department. But that's not how I saw Sodality. I willl say the name bugs me a little though because I want it to be Solidarity. Lech Wałęsa. Showing my age I guess. 

And I know you have it in your head that there's frequently no bass in black metal, and at one time that was true. But it's certainly not true anymore in 2023. Or at least it's true a lot less often than it used to be.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

The original Thatguy is back

Well that's certainly a big relief. But when was he gone? And where did he go?

[Nasty_Cabbage]

1 hour ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Alright Le Cabbage, I'm listening to this one now and my first impression is I like it. Not sure if I love it, but I definitely like it a lot. My question to you is this: when you say "this style of black metal" which style would you be referring to? What are the different styles or categories of black metal in your view, and which one would you put these Poles in?

Not trying to be argumentative or anything, I've very much enjoyed your participation and added perspective here on the board of late, you've been an absoutely fantastic new addition to our quirky little group imho. (don't ghost us!) You come across as a smart, educated, well spoken guy who seems prone to somewhat in-depth analysis and long form dissertations about music, which makes you someone I really enjoy reading and interacting with. (If only our tastes were just a wee bit closer in alignment, but I'm not compalining here! People bringing different perspectives to the table are a big positive in my book) So that's why I'm just trying to start a slightly more thoughtful, cerebral conversation about black metal here.

Because a guy like me who can get so passionate about stuff, I can often become so distracted by the visceral, emotional response I'm having to this music that I'm not always able to step back and look at the bigger picture and properly analyze things calmly, logically and objectively without letting my emotions get in the way. Conversations with other dudes who get as emotional as I do over music are not always as stimulating or productive, because they often tend to stay on more of a "Dude this shit killls so fucking hard!!" level where we're essentially high-fiving ourselves and throwing our proverbial horns in each other's faces. And that's fun too, but sometimes a deeper dive and a more introspective approach can be quite rewarding.

The album's over now, yeah this was pretty cool. I'll deffo be coming back to this later or over the weekend. Have not an ounce of slav in me but I love Polish black metal even if this album is fairly atypical for that decription. I didn't find it to be that dense, it wasn't a solid wall of noise at all, there was plenty of air here, there were dynamics in play. And this is good. But that's coming from someone who listens to a lot of brick wall black metal and norsecore so maybe that's why I don't see this as particularly dense.

 

 

Hell yeah it is! 🤘🐐😈🐐🤘

Thank you for the compliments. It means a lot to me. I've no plans on ghosting. If I ever do just assume it was interrupted internet service or personal real-life related stuff like hospital stays or some such. Not having social media I've definitely lost a few people whom I had corresponded with for years to the internet ether, so I know what it's like, and I like you guys over here. I feel as though I learn more and more about metal of all sorts beings here, and you guys have knowledge that keeps me from becoming too didactic, which I have a bad habit of doing... even in real life when my little brother says foolish things like that he can't tell the difference between Axel Rose and Bon Scott. I can definitely get a little snobby about things I ought not to be snobby about.

In any case to your question you'll have to be patient with me because of the way I tend to divide this stuff up in my head. The longer more repetitive form of black metal is definitely where I'd file this under. I tend to lump it into two categories: the classic two guitars plus vocals and very light atmospherics that this falls under where the repetition of basic two to four riff sets drive the song. It's what a lot of reviewers would use terms like "hypnotic" or "immersive" to describe, and it would be directed towards bands like Aosoth or Urfaust or Xasthur. To me what they're doing isn't all that much different from what some of the early (I believe primarily Norwegian, but feel free to correct me here) bands were doing in one of the first really crystalized offshoots of black metal from the main trunk. I mean my favorite Darkthrone album A Blaze in The Northern Sky has no keyboards or background "atmospheric" instrumentation to speak of and the song lengths on that album are somewhere between long and 'you missed a year of school before the album finished', but what they did there really can't be denied. I don't know that I'd necessarily call it Norsecore just because I've never fully understood the term and throwing "core" onto the end of something is the musical equivalent of adding "punk" to the end of some random thing in an rpg to describe a general aesthetic (seriously what the fuck is frostpunk? Is Skyrim swordandsorcerypunk? Is Greedfall colonypunk? Is Pendragon Arthurpunk? Knock it off with the "punk" already!... *deep breath... okay sorry.) Needless to say This particular branch (I know I'm beating this tree metaphor to death with a stick... Shit!) when done well is some of the most enthralling black metal I can think of, but it's also probably the hardest one to execute. Having zero keyboards, limited production capabilities, and nothing but your own passion and skill to build a song is daunting and difficult. It's why I tend to be a little harder on super repetitive bands.

The other branch of the long form black metal would be the kind that in one way or another fully embraces atmospheric elements as a backing or even comprising the whole songs themselves sometimes. To me this begins with the black metal band most fans either love or hate Nightside... and Anthems... era Emperor. Unfortunately that line of songwriting ends with symphonic stuff like Cradle of Filth or bottom feeding 'dungeon synth', but there's a whole world of good stuff in between.

I have to go grab supper with the family now, but I might continue this later. Thanks again for the kind words ya' crabby old man.

[Thatguy]

32 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Mornin' Doc! Do you sir not listen to an abundance of essentially riffless music?

I do. But if it's passing itself off as BM I expect riffs. And static is good when I say so and bad when I don't like the song so it's a lovely little concept that I can use as I please.

 

17 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Well that's certainly a big relief. But when was he gone? And where did he go?

The original Thatguy was quick and harsh to judgement. I have mellowed and will usually say nothing if I just don't like a band because everyone is trying to be loved.

38 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Or at least it's true a lot less often than it used to be.

Or sometimes it's true and sometimes it isn't. Or it's true when I say it is, or not...😉

23 minutes ago, Nasty_Cabbage said:

can't tell the difference between Axel Rose and Bon Scott

Well, let him know Bon is dead. As for Axel, I don't know.

I haven't listened to any metal this morning apart from previewing the albums you put up - I'm still going on Does Spring Hide It's Joy. I did say it was VERY LONG. There are slowly evolving melodic structures here so you can't call it static.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

@ Le Cabbage...

I guess I'll need to eat pretty soon myself as it's already after 8pm here. But I just wanterd to say Darkthrone themselves are not Norsecore. The term refers to the legions of immitators who picked up on the 2nd wave template that Darkthrone helped lay down with their albums Funeral Moon and Transylvanian, along with seminal works from other early 2nd wave bands, Mayhem, Immortal, Satyricon, Gorgoroth or whomever, all the bands that helped establish the 2nd wave sound as we know it.

Norsecore describes all these 2nd wave styled black metal bands that came along in the late 90's and 2000's who often get knocked for being blast-beat crazy, one dimensional, going full-speed ahead at all times, wall of noise full scale sonic assaults. Static as Doc might say. Many of them Swedish bands but by no means all, bands like Setherial, 1349, Urgehal, Enthroned, Dark Funeral, Tsjuder and Marduk all have albums which could be described as Norsecore. There is definitely quite a bit of punk in play here, all of this stuff has been heavily infused with punk, I can hear it anyway. Some people I'm sure use the terms Norsecore and punky black metal interchangably.

It's not completely unlike how 'deathcore' describes the derivative bands who have taken the old school death metal template and added more stompy hardcore style breakdowns and cranked up the overblown brutality for brutality's sake (comically in many cases) up to 11. Norsecore is seen by many to be a lesser more pedestrian form of the the black arts, just as deathcore is seen by many as a lesser form of death metal that doesn't deserve a seat at the true death metal table. And in deathcore's case I raise my hand, guilty as charged. Yes, I'm an elitist gatekeeping snob. But somehow when it comes to black metal I'm totally cool with Norsecore. Not all of it, for some reason I don't really listen to very much stuff by some of those bands I just named, like Marduk, Dark Funeral, 1349 or Enthroned. But I do listen to a veritable shit ton of younger, lesser known Nordic bands who fit the general description of "Norsecore." 

[JamesT]

5 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Actually Jimmy T, I did kinda want a rundown of the catalog. I wanted to know which songs I'm sleeping on from the newer era starting in 2010. I love Wings of War and I've played it enough that I know all the songs and think it's a great album. I'd put it ahead of UtI from the first 5. So I don't think nostalgia is the only factor in play here. I've come to like Electric Age quite a bit as well for the same reason as WoW, memorable songs. That album wasn't immediate for me I had to listen to it a bunch of times first before the songs stood out. So I think this shows that I'm willing to keep an open mind and at least give the newer stuff a fair shake.

I don't do this with too many bands. Usually once a band releases a couple of duds I'm done with them at that point and will just stick to the earlier albums that I know and love. Overkill gets a pass from me for their several subpar records because they've still managed to release at Ieast 2 great albums in 4 separate decades. How many bands can truthfully say that? Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Metallica, Anthrax, Exodus, Testament, Slayer and Megastaine can't say that. 

I've just been unable to see the greatness in most of the tracks on Ironbound, Grinding Wheel and White Devil Armory. I was hoping you'd give me some specific song titles from the newer stuff to point me in the right direction and you have. So I'm gonna go listen to these 3 more recent records that I'm not as familiar with and have not been able to get onboard with yet again starting with Ironbound and I'm gonna pay attention to those songs you named. I totally understand people who dismiss the material on the newer Kill albums as generic, cookie cutter and indistinct, because that's how I feel about these 3 albums. But the fact that Wings of War and Electric Age have broken through to me and revealed how good their songs really are, makes me wonder if further listens might change my perspective on any or all of the other 3.

I agree with you about production in principle. But the only three Kill albums that I feel have really been irreparably hampered by poor production are: Under the Influence, WFO and RelixIV. At one time I might have also said the debut, (and so many thrash bands had shit sounding low budget debut albums back then) but I've learned to really enjoy that more raw sound over the years. All their other albums are fine, their production (while not always perfect) is not an issue for me. I find it's only an issue when it distracts me from the music. Many albums (by any band, not just Overkill) have production that sounds a bit different, maybe not ideal, but while listening to it I just get used to it and by the 2nd song I've become immersed in it and have forgotten all about it. If the music's good enough that'll happen anyway. Sometimes the music's not good enough to overcome it.

So I'll have to do some listening and get back to you James Thomas millennial Ovekill fan extraordinaire. This shall not be the end of our Overkill discussion. You're my only ally here who truly understands and appreciates the real greatness of my Jersey boys. The fact that you love Killbox and call it underrated shows that you get it. That's my litmus test, Killbox 13 and also Bloodletting. If you like those two then you're a real Overkill fan, because most casuals would only say the first 5 and Ironbound. And to a lesser extent I Hear Black, which truly is a great (yes I said great) album, is a litmus test I use as well. I know that people who falsely claim that one sucks will never truly get the greatness of Overkill. But that's OK, they're just a band among thousands of other metal bands, and everyone has their own favorite bands for their own personal reasons. It's just always fun for me when I run across another Overkill fanatic, and you're not even from NY/NJ.

I really enjoyed reading this response!

I listened through 6 full albums today:  "Necroshine", "Bloodletting", "Killbox 13", "Immortalis", "The Electric Age", and "White Devil Armory", and I made it through 8 of the 11 tracks on "The Grinding Wheel" before I had to remove the headphones to leave the office.  And I must say, even though there aren't any Overkill albums I truly dislike, I've really been sleeping on "Bloodletting"!  That album is fantastic.  What makes Overkill so great is that there's something to love on every album.

And my mistake!  I didn't realize I was on the right track with giving a bit of a shortened rundown of the catalog!  In that longer list of songs in my previous post, I included 2 tracks from each of the most recent 6 albums, beginning with "Ironbound", so hopefully that gave some insight into my thoughts.  But to go a bit deeper on the 3 modern albums that you mentioned aren't your cup of tea as of now, "White Devil Armory" is excellent all the way through.  I'd highlight "PIG" and "Bitter Pill" like I mentioned earlier, but also "Down to the Bone" and "Where There's Smoke...".  The song structures are interesting and engaging, and the guitar work is great.  The drums from Lipnicki are a major highlight that get often overlooked.  

"The Grinding Wheel" was the album that changed some things up from the preceding 3 albums.  The songs were longer and more complex.  I've read some complaints that the album is too long, but that's a complaint I'll never understand.  That, however, is a soap box for a different day!  The album doesn't feel long to me at all.  The opening track, "Mean, Green, Killing Machine" is a gut punch immediately, and tracks like "Shine On", "Red, White, and Blue", and "The Wheel" are pure thrashers.  Then you have tracks that mix up the tempo a bit, such as "Let's All Go to Hades" and the album closer, the title track.  The outro on the title track is almost haunting.  The intro to "The Long Road" reminds me of classic Iron Maiden in terms of the guitar harmonies.  It's a masterpiece in my view.

I know "Ironbound" has been a frequent mention in our posts, but I feel I should at least make a few observations.  Firstly, it's incredible that an album so fierce followed a couple of lesser liked albums like "Relix" and "Immortalis".  No idea where the ferocious return to pure thrash came from, but I'm so glad it happened!  Secondly, the guitar work is phenomenal.  Every solo is perfectly placed, and there's actually quite a bit of variation in the song structures.  "The Green and Black" is the 8+ minute epic to open the album, and the final 3 tracks are all thrashers.  But then you have songs like "The Goal is Your Soul" and "The Head and Heart", which slow things down a bit, but without sacrificing any of the heaviness - and I mean not one single bit!  "Endless War" is the X-factor of the album for me.  The first few seconds are a great build-up and then the double-bass drumming kicks in with the guitar shredding fading into the sound as the song really gets going.  It's just such a well-executed song and a big favorite of mine.  And I know you mentioned that you really don't like "Bring Me the Night", but that is one of my favorite thrash songs of all time, period.  And hey, it's cool if you still can't get into it after another listen or two - we all have our tastes, as you've said.  For me, the blinding pace of the song combined with the solo toward the latter half (with furious drumming), is everything I want in a thrash song. 

"The Wings of War" is an album that actually had to grow on me a bit after the first couple of listens.  But grow, it did!  I love that album now.  "Batshitcrazy" is killer, and "Welcome to the Garden State" brings that fun punk element into the mix.  "Head of a Pin" is a big favorite from that album for me as well.  "Where Few Dare to Walk" would be a bit of a wild card for me.  It's a great change of pace and a very engaging listening experience.  

I'd venture to say you and I both are still allowing "Scorched" to continue to digest!  As of now, the title track, "The Surgeon", "Twist of the Wick", "Fever", and "Know Her Name" all stand out.  But I truly enjoy the entire album - no surprise there!  I've listened to it all the way through 8 times now, and it has gotten better with each listen.  Can't wait to play it again!

Thanks again for the chance to Fanboi about Overkill!

[GoatmasterGeneral]

41 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Well, let him know Bon is dead. As for Axel, I don't know.

He certainly looks like death warmed over. Can the actual, literal state of death be that far away?

 

[AlSymerz]

That top photo is about 10 years old, he's slimmed up a bit more these days. Botox has removed the death like skin feature.

(Axl is the chick on the left in the sports jacket!)

[Thatguy]

19 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

He certainly looks like death warmed over. Can the actual, literal state of death be that far away?

Sic gloria transit mundi

[Nasty_Cabbage]

5 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Well, let him know Bon is dead. As for Axel, I don't know.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Bon would be looking as rough or worse were he alive. That man was not known for his temperance or moral rigor. My little brother honestly thinks they sound the exact same.

As for norsecore undergoing a similar process as deathcore, I suppose it makes sense. The punkier side of metal was never something I could claim any authority on, not being all that into punk myself (and yes, I am aware of just how strong an influence punk had on many important metal bands). The thing with deathcore, like any other genre, is that the assertion it's just death with some hardcore breakdowns and often some melodeath influence is really only true until it's not. There's plenty of bands that began life that way and went in a completely different direction, and plenty of bands that ended up there despite starting somewhere else. Then of course there's bands who had a ton of hardcore from before deathcore was really considered a thing. I mean some of the "slam" death bands out there like Dying Fetus or Skinless are really only honorary death metal in name due to their tenure, speed, and technicality.

In any case I usually try to avoid chopping black metal up by region unless I'm speaking within a purely historical context. As much as I love the music I just can't really keep my head on straight if I thought of something as Finnish style bm from Greece, or Greek bm from Russia. It'd be more than enough to make me lock myself up in a castle tower somewhere searching for mysterious traces of antimatter in the intestines of different genus' of quail. So I generally divide it into faster more raw material with a traditional one or two guitar band, heavy atmospherics making use of either keyboards, synths, ambient sound, or orchestration and usually stemming from the groundwork Emperor laid (folk bm can often fall under this umbrella category as well depending on their instrumentation), long form "hypnotic" black metal with a traditional band set and little to no atmospherics, and then some of the borderline stuff that can have sections of black metal but usually keeps them completely divided. These would be your 'post' or psychedilic or whatever bands. Once again, I'm not an authority on any of this, it's just the way I kind of keep things divided. In betweens and exceptions abound.

NP: Primeval Mass - Nine Altars

Nine Altars | Primeval Mass (bandcamp.com)

 

I love Absu so much I even love Absu when it's not played by Absu.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

1 hour ago, Nasty_Cabbage said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Bon would be looking as rough or worse were he alive. That man was not known for his temperance or moral rigor. My little brother honestly thinks they sound the exact same.

As for norsecore undergoing a similar process as deathcore, I suppose it makes sense. The punkier side of metal was never something I could claim any authority on, not being all that into punk myself (and yes, I am aware of just how strong an influence punk had on many important metal bands). The thing with deathcore, like any other genre, is that the assertion it's just death with some hardcore breakdowns and often some melodeath influence is really only true until it's not. There's plenty of bands that began life that way and went in a completely different direction, and plenty of bands that ended up there despite starting somewhere else. Then of course there's bands who had a ton of hardcore from before deathcore was really considered a thing. I mean some of the "slam" death bands out there like Dying Fetus or Skinless are really only honorary death metal in name due to their tenure, speed, and technicality.

In any case I usually try to avoid chopping black metal up by region unless I'm speaking within a purely historical context. As much as I love the music I just can't really keep my head on straight if I thought of something as Finnish style bm from Greece, or Greek bm from Russia. It'd be more than enough to make me lock myself up in a castle tower somewhere searching for mysterious traces of antimatter in the intestines of different genus' of quail. So I generally divide it into faster more raw material with a traditional one or two guitar band, heavy atmospherics making use of either keyboards, synths, ambient sound, or orchestration and usually stemming from the groundwork Emperor laid (folk bm can often fall under this umbrella category as well depending on their instrumentation), long form "hypnotic" black metal with a traditional band set and little to no atmospherics, and then some of the borderline stuff that can have sections of black metal but usually keeps them completely divided. These would be your 'post' or psychedilic or whatever bands. Once again, I'm not an authority on any of this, it's just the way I kind of keep things divided. In betweens and exceptions abound.

Bon would be 77 now, born July 1946 he was 7 months younger than Lemmy. Same age as: Freddie Mercury, David Gilmour, Keith Moon, Sylvester Stallone, Tommy Lee Jones, Susan Sarandon, Liza Minelli, Dolly Parton, Elton John, Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, Al Bunndy, Danny Glover, Steven Spielberg, Cheech Marin, Andre the Giant and Cher. No way in hell he'd still be alive today!