Random metal thoughts

[SurgicalBrute]

2 minutes ago, navybsn said:

It's just impossible to translate everyone's mental image of those characters onto a screen or translate the story into anything close to accurate. You have to leave something out or make a casting choice and upset someone. Dune is probably the closest I can come up with to the actual novel that works.

I don't disagree. There's no doubt some things need to be edited or cut when translating something from one medium to another, and you're never going to please everyone. Even the LoTR movies had to make cuts to the story in order to make it work which annoyed some purists. I think the problem currently, is that the goal seems to have shifted from trying to make relatively faithful adaptions of a work into re-imagining a work, and that's when the issues start.

13 minutes ago, navybsn said:

My point is, if you don't like it, just don't watch. Don't waste energy outraging on the internet. Better uses of time.

100% agree. Like I said to Zack, I'm not defending the excessive outrage itself...I think there's a large number of incredibly entitled fans out there, and quite often the things they get blown up about are absolutely beyond stupid. I just don't think that the outrage we see when characters are race/gender/sexuality swapped is itself necessarily coming from a place of prejudice, so much as a place of "how dare you make changes to this thing that's important to me"

[Hungarino]

If the human species somehow manages to survive long enough we will all end up some brownish hue, probably mostly dark hair - an amalgamation of whatever genetic make-ups keep propagating. The sooner the better, imo.

I find hang-ups about race in fantasy shows hilarious. Its...fantasy. If anything matters less in the world right now please share.

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

38 minutes ago, SurgicalBrute said:

"This stuff doesn't matter to me, so no one else could possibly feel this way either"

It's not about immersion, it's about understanding a mindset...but if you want to just assume everyone is a racist I'm not stopping you

"...but it's okay when we do it!"...Gotcha

Not saying no one else could or should feel that way, afaic people are free to feel any way they want about anything. I have no interest in being the feelings arbiter. And I'm not saying everyone's a racist. I'm just saying that people were being stupid assholes to get all bent and make a big stink about it. "They ruined the Little Mermaid!!" It's a movie about a fucking cartoon character mermaid, go on with your life.

And yes, "but it's ok when we do it" was the whole point of that meme. White people never seemed to mind too much when Hollywood had a long history of casting white men as lots of non-white characters both historical and fictional. John Wayne as Atilla the Hun, really? Jake Gyllenhaal as a Persian prince? Brad Pitt as the Greek warrior Achilles? Some people noticed and laughed among themselves at how ridiculous it was, but they didn't get all bent out of shape over it. But dare to give the Little Mermaid role to a black actress and there was a public outcry, a bunch of people lost their collective shit. They should be embarrassed.

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

32 minutes ago, Hungarino said:

If the human species somehow manages to survive long enough we will all end up some brownish hue, probably mostly dark hair - an amalgamation of whatever genetic make-ups keep propagating. The sooner the better, imo.

I find hang-ups about race in fantasy shows hilarious. Its...fantasy. If anything matters less in the world right now please share.

 

If we manage to survive long enough some day people will be able to download custom skins to the processors implanted in their heads so they can change their outward appearance and even their race and gender at will. It'll be no more complicated than selecting a different theme from a drop-down menu.

[Dead1]

14 hours ago, Sheol said:

That's probably because the majority of fans and bands were white for a very long time, much like women in metal. I think when the non-whites was very few and not seen as threatining the status quo. There were Alex of Entombed, the two guys from Suffocation, Death Angel, and Living Colour.

 

You forget people like Kirk Hammett (half Filipino), Rocky George from Suicidal Tendencies, Chuck Billy (half Mexican half Native American),  Dino Cazares, Tom Araya, Slash, Mike Alexander (Evile), whole of Bodycount, Benji Webb (Skindred), Tom Morello and Zache de la Roche from RATM), Eddie and Alex Van Halen (half Indonesian), Kim Thayil and Hiro Yamamoto from Soundgarden  etc etc.

In fact hispanics form a large percentage of the modern US metal scene!

We now have metal bands from as far as Mongolia!

 

The Revolver article was just modern race baiting.  

 

 

1 hour ago, markm said:

My reaction to the multi racial casting in rings of power was that correct me if I'm wrong The Lord of the Rings is a fictional fantasy of medieval Europe which one would assume was overwhelmingly caucasian.  I say that as someone married to a woman of colornso I don't think I really have an issue with multi racial casting but I do like things to make sense.  I like a certain amount of logic even in made up shit.

Same.  It's called suspension of disbelief.

3 hours ago, navybsn said:

The amount of outrage over the casting choices for just about every series/show/movie these days is pathetic. Fan bases are just unreasonable not to mention the culture warriors out there who have to pick everything apart. I just actively choose not to watch anything that doesn't suit my tastes. It's a decent way to avoid getting tweaked over dumb shit. Too bad people can't understand that they have the option to just avoid something they don't like. Freewill and all.

I remember the woke people complaining that the WWII movie Dunkirk lacked people of colour and women.  It's a movie about 300,000 white men hanging out on a beach.  Women and people of colour weren't really present (though they did show some French African colonial troops which is historically accurate).   

[navybsn]

43 minutes ago, SurgicalBrute said:

so much as a place of "how dare you make changes to this thing that's important to me"

That's a part I don't get either. I mean do enough people have "main character" disease that think their opinion on a franchise or casting decision even registers at a level for it to matter? I mean let's be real. These changes aren't being made for the sake of wokeness or inclusion. It's about money. Bring in more fans (in many of these cases they're targeting minorities) so they can expand the audience for more ticket and merchandise sales. Sometimes it's done to appease the Chinese government so the films can be shown in the country, but that's starting to change because companies aren't seeing the return on investment. That's the motivation. That's it. More people identify with a franchise or go see a show, more people spend money on it. With all things in life, the answer is always sex or money.

As a fan, I'm for inclusion. Let more people enjoy the things worth enjoying. I don't really understand why people would be against it unless it's the good old "change is good unless you change my things. Don't touch my thing" mindset. The whole woke thing is a Qanon bogeyman. Something for immature people who can't think critically to be scared of and a way to influence them as a group. Satan worked for years with Judeo-Christian followers, but as that population declines, they have to come up with something else to take his/her place. Or is it they/them? Someone should ask Satan his preferred pronouns.

[Dead1]

3 hours ago, SurgicalBrute said:

Okay...I know what I'm about to say is probably going to get a fair bit of push back, but the whole "you're just mad because the cast wasn't entirely white people, racist" is an absolutely disingenuous narrative that people seem way to quick to buy into.

I'd really like to know, do any of you consider yourselves hardcore fans of any kind of pop culture that was at one time purely the domain of nerds and geeks? Comics, D&D, Video Games, Animation..anything like that? Because honestly, I grew up with a lot of that stuff, and I'm going to tell you, 90% of the outrage over casting like they did in Rings of Power isn't because of the ethnicity of the actor, it's because it changes the lore.

You need to understand the kinds of fanbases you're dealing with here...Not the cultural trend hoppers or the new fans who recently discovered something, but the people who have been with something for years of their lives The kinds of people who were a part of something long before it ever became part of everyday pop culture. These people have an understanding of the material to an almost obsessive point. They can site you chapter and verse about character histories, lines of dialogue, physical descriptions of people and locations. So when you take something that has a fanbase like that, and you present them with something that makes fundamental changes to their passion...yeah...you're going to catch a whole lot of hell from them.

...and I think this is why so many people buy into the "racist fans" idea. Because they don't have that same kind of connection to that something, and they don't understand why it would bother some people to make changes like that unless they were motivated by racism. Studios, particularly marketing and publicists, understand that and they use it to their advantage as a way to deflect from any real criticism leveled against their product.

 

I can relate to it.  Recently D&D stopped having racial/species features because they viewed it as promoting racism (I kid you not). 

 

Eg Elves are not so good at magic anymore and Dwarves not automatically being tough.  So their whole backstory has been effectively wiped out. They're now just the same as humans.   

Also creatures are no longer good or evil aligned.  

And all this kind of cheapens what lore there is.  

Eg one of the most famous D&D characters is Drizzt do' Urden who is a Dark Elf that tore from his culture's evil and violent ways to become a good guy.  Well now Dark Elves are no longer evil so all of a sudden Drizzt's exploits have become meaningless.

The only reason Dark Elves exist is because they did a deal with a demon (Lloth, the Spider Queen).  To gain and keep her favour required acts of violence, slavery and sadism.  Their culture developed accordingly.

 

All of a sudden they're just elves with dark skin with no defining culture or background or anything.  

 

In fact it kind of destroys DnD which is typical good guys v bad guys.  All of a sudden those goblins you're smashing are just impoverished wretches forced into crime and violence due to lack of other options!  My brother has already gone down this politically correct path and he is now a pain to game with.

 

 

Now when I DM mix things up.  Most of the NPCs are "grey."  However those distinctions of good and bad are necessary to give the players grounding and define their parameters.

 

[Dead1]

50 minutes ago, navybsn said:

That's a The whole woke thing is a Qanon bogeyman. 

 

 

Woke's definitely a thing.  I've already mentioned how we have to say a prayer to indigenous Australians at the start of every meeting.  It's now also done at the start of performances (eg my daughter's ballet recital), awards ceremonies, even a dance party I attended this year etc etc.

At my work they are looking at expanding the prayer to include LGBTIQ+, the mentally ill and bizarrely alcoholics and drug addicts.

 

You listen to young people like my niece talk and all the world's problems are attributed to white males.  My wife does it too as do her friends and colleagues.  It's everywhere on TV.

 

Woke is the historical revisionism we are seeing eg Captain James Cook now being touted as as a genocidal colonialist.  It's assigning modern values to respected historical characters to destroy the legacy of those people.

It's recasting the whole of western civilisation as intrinsically evil and to be got rid off.  Other cultures are recast as saintly and without fault.  Accusing another culture of bad practice (eg baked in misogyny in Islam or problems associated with Indian castes) results in allegations of racism.

 

Wokeness is essentially the old post colonialist philosophy transplanted  back to the west and expanded across all facets of life.  It's been merged with feminism and Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi's concepts outlined in Practical Idealism.

Like any concept it's been reduced to mindless slogans and closed minds.

 And I say this as someone who is essentially a feminist and a an actual Marxist (if I had it my way, most industries would be nationalised).  Just last week I participated in a march against domestic violence.  I am all for equality but I am also for freedom of speech and I also think western civilisation and in particular protestant cultures* revolutionised human existence for the better. 

 

*I am again a southern Slav of Catholic origin and an atheist, certainly not a north European Protestant.

----

 

As for inclusivity, no not everything needs to be inclusive. 

 

Eg metal - I can't stand normies taking the piss out of metal which is what they do when they send me all those memes on FB.  I can't stand normies appropriating metal shirts etc.  Metal is for metalheads!    

Or wargaming - the ultracompetitive win at all costs types that cheat and argue to win can fuck off.  I refuse to play them and let my displeasure be known if they've behaved that way after our first game.

 

 

[zackflag]

2 hours ago, markm said:

My reaction to the multi racial casting in rings of power was that, correct me if I'm wrong,  The Lord of the Rings is a fictional fantasy of medieval Europe which one would assume was overwhelmingly Caucasian.  I say that as someone married to a woman of color, so I don't think I really have an issue with multi racial casting but I do like things to make sense.  I like a certain amount of logic even in made up shit.

Ooooookay buuut..... very very little about fantasy or even sci-fi genres makes much sense to begin with so why would having ethnic diversity among the differing species seem illogical? Like, we're talking about a completely fictional world where dragons exist along with dwarves, wizards, magic, fairies, trolls and orcs and goblins and giant eagles and elves who are immortal...... but if the Hobbits have a bunch of different skin tones then that's a step too far???? That's the point where it all becomes illogical?

It's really strange to me that a fictitious fantasy world must have a strict, codified set of guidelines that must be adhered to or else it's "woke" or whatever.

[AlSymerz]

15 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

Woke's definitely a thing.  I've already mentioned how we have to say a prayer to indigenous Australians at the start of every meeting.  It's now also done at the start of performances (eg my daughter's ballet recital), awards ceremonies, even a dance party I attended this year etc etc.

At my work they are looking at expanding the prayer to include LGBTIQ+, the mentally ill and bizarrely alcoholics and drug addicts.

I know Tasmania is backwards and some of the laws are archaic but I have NFI what you are on about with all these prayers. I have never been asked to pray anywhere other than in a church, which is pretty much what is expected of the church. My cuz has kids at school in Tassie and he reckons they have no such prayers. He's always putting on public events and abiding by whatever rules councils require to make them happen and he's never had to pray to anyone.

We've had the Acknowledgement of Country and/or Welcome to Country here in Vic for at least the last 20 years, before every school event and pretty much every public event. It's changed a bit over the years but it's not a prayer and lasts all of about 30 seconds, hardly a big issue. I've never seen or heard of any public event here where we have to pray to LGBTQ Army or alcoholics and drug addicts, that's just fucking ridiculous.

Anyone who complains about Acknowledgement of Country has fuck all else in life to worry about. Even as a white bred male I had to recite the Acknowledgement and I didn't feel less of a person for having to do it.

 

[markm]

2 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

But yet it didn't seem like anyone got bent out of shape when Peter Jackson chose to film his LOTR trilogy in New Zealand, which does not resemble Europe very closely. But that's ok because it's supposed to take place in Middle Earth, which is a completely made up fantasy world, so you should theoretically be able to shoot it anywhere. And the characters are all totally made up too so it shouldn't really matter who they cast or how the director and the costume designer and the make up artists decide they want to interpret the character. In my mind it'd be different if it were actual historical figures we were talking about. If Hollywood were to cast Snoop Dog as a weed smoking Abe Lincoln, or Lizzo as Winston Churchill then I could understand people not wanting to accept that. But we're talking about Hobbits and cartoon mermaids n shit here. WGAF?

True to a point, but in my mind, not really. Tolkien was incredibly specific and detailed with his description of things, especially landscapes. I read the LOTR series right before the first Jackson film came out in my late 30's. I had wanted to read it all my life and that was the catalyst. I very much enjoyed reading the books, then watching the movies. I read the Silmarillion and several of the pieced together partially finished histories (all made up of course) of Middle Earth. But I don't have the attention to detail to really geek out on a lot of the specifics of the lore as Surge calls it. 

I was learning about classical music and I was interested in the comparisons between Wagner and Tolkien.  They both are credited for sort of inventing whole worlds out of their respective genres-creating cultures of music, history words, music, poetry. That's the stuff I find interesting and the concepts from a literary POV. Not unlike studying religions. I just wanted to be in the know. So, I don't know what level of nerd that makes me. 

In my mind, you can't separate Tolkien, Wagner and H.P. Lovecraft with race. Were they products of their own time or were they racist? Probably both. Part of the multi cultural casting prolly has to do with the pushback about the notion that part of the Middle Earth culture has been argued is a romanticism of Aryan values perhaps not unlike some of the early black metal white power stuff. 

You might think Tolkien was pagan with his love of Norse mythology but he was  ardent Catholic. WWI was definitely a huge influence. A big part of the depiction of the eye Sauron and the orcs and all that was a condemnation the industrial military complex-the mechanization of the world, technology destroying nature-all that sort of stuff. And then a bunch of metal bands identified the orcs. I mean if you were to subtract Tolkien and  Lovecraft, you'd just delete about 40% of metal! OK, that might be a big of an exaggeration. 

If you read his books, you've got kings and queens and guillotines. Fiefdoms, castles, peasants, royalty. It's obviously based on European Feudalism, culturally. It's not even debatable.  There's been a lot of criticism written about his racial views even though I don't think he ever came out and stated his views explicitly. He romanticizes Western and Northern Europe as the best looking and noble creatures. The Valar or Gods  and elves and all that shit and humans who bred with elves were from the west-Western Europe. It's clear as a bell. The good looking women and men are always described as fair-now you can argue if fair means attractive or light skinned but it's both. The more sinister and evil creatures who are described in unflattering ways with features with more swarthy descriptions are rife with racial stereotypes of what a lot of scholars think of depicting negative outdated racist depictions of Asian and afro features ascribed to vile, nasty, evil creatures. 

I just figure in the 1930's the browning of Europe had started and  probably colored his view as he yearned for his own Beowulf mythology glorifying the origins of his heritage. He was a professor of Anglo Saxon studies at the University of Oxford FFS.  I mean the guy was anglophile all the way in his world view-a throwback to Victorian times. I don't really hold it against him. But if you want to make films of his books his love of Anglo Saxon culture has to be addressed. 

It's all there in black and white as it were. The casting choices were no doubt to counter some of these criticisms. Just my take.  

[markm]

So at the end of the day, if big monied interests want to remake and and reconfigure the pieces of Tolkien's story as a fictional reimagining today's world, Europe or not that helps peoples of all backgrounds enjoy the stories as some of you have said, why not? 

 But there's no denying that it's a fairly comprehensive reworking and reimagining of the original LOTR books.....I'm sure the creators would say they kept the spirit of Tolkien alive.  

[SurgicalBrute]

2 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Not saying no one else could or should feel that way, afaic people are free to feel any way they want about anything. I have no interest in being the feelings arbiter. And I'm not saying everyone's a racist. I'm just saying that people were being stupid assholes to get all bent and make a big stink about it.

I mean...you just told me that my entire point was a giant crock of shit, so I'm not really sure what other options you're seeing here. Whether you think they were assholes was never my point. Either you think most of those people were outraged because they were racist, or you think they were motivated by something else.

 

2 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

It's a movie about a fucking cartoon character mermaid, go on with your life.

Okay...but do you understand that I'm not trying to convince you to view things like they do? What I'm trying to do is explain that there are people out there who are passionate about all sorts of things, including animation. You're more than welcome to think that's stupid...more power to you, but some people feel very strongly that the Little Mermaid should look like the Little Mermaid they grew up with in the animated cartoon.

 

2 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

And yes, "but it's ok when we do it" was the whole point of that meme.

Great...but you missed my point. That door swings both ways. If someone thinks race/gender/sexuality swapping is totally fine then what the fuck are they even complaining about? If they take issue with it, then why the fuck are they fine selectively giving some films a pass?

[markm]

1 hour ago, zackflag said:

Ooooookay buuut..... very very little about fantasy or even sci-fi genres makes much sense to begin with so why would having ethnic diversity among the differing species seem illogical? Like, we're talking about a completely fictional world where dragons exist along with dwarves, wizards, magic, fairies, trolls and orcs and goblins and giant eagles and elves who are immortal...... but if the Hobbits have a bunch of different skin tones then that's a step too far???? That's the point where it all becomes illogical?

It's really strange to me that a fictitious fantasy world must have a strict, codified set of guidelines that must be adhered to or else it's "woke" or whatever.

Yeah, that's reasonable. I think I'm biased having read the books and having a lot of the literature in my head. And I rest on my view that LOTR is based on Euro values.  It depends on how much of a purist any fan of the books might be.

Shakespeare might be a good comparison. It's older, based on even older stories that Shakespeare found to write about, and also written by a Brit. The plays have been adapted  in every conceivable way imaginable. But usually, albeit not always, productions want to be faithful to the words of Shakespeare.  

Like, I think it's great with unconventional casting in Shakespearean roles roles and concepts. A modern depiction of Romeo and Juliet, with DiCaprio-sure. But I also think you have honor the the culture, language, time and place those plays were written. So play with. Push it. No reason to not have an all black cast, Hamlet, awesome. I want to see that show. But there's still going to be "something rotten in Denmark". Not so crazy about fucking with the words. I'm dubious about changing Hamlet to being something rotten in Ontario or Senegal. 

If you want to reimagine Tolkien-cool. But there is a history involved with its creation and that involves the writer's culture. And, it's Europe like it or not. 

At least the actors have British accents. Put Stallone in as the once and future King and all bets are off 🤪

[Dead1]

43 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

I know Tasmania is backwards and some of the laws are archaic but I have NFI what you are on about with all these prayers. I have never been asked to pray anywhere other than in a church, which is pretty much what is expected of the church. My cuz has kids at school in Tassie and he reckons they have no such prayers. He's always putting on public events and abiding by whatever rules councils require to make them happen and he's never had to pray to anyone.

We've had the Acknowledgement of Country and/or Welcome to Country here in Vic for at least the last 20 years, before every school event and pretty much every public event. It's changed a bit over the years but it's not a prayer and lasts all of about 30 seconds, hardly a big issue. I've never seen or heard of any public event here where we have to pray to LGBTQ Army or alcoholics and drug addicts, that's just fucking ridiculous.

Anyone who complains about Acknowledgement of Country has fuck all else in life to worry about. Even as a white bred male I had to recite the Acknowledgement and I didn't feel less of a person for having to do it.

 

 

In my department Acknowledgement of Country is mandatory.

 

I hate the Acknowledgement of Country prayer with a passion.  I work for a secular public service that provides services to anyone regardless of race, religion etc. 

Why acknowledge one group (well now potentially 3 if they do end up implementing bit about about acknowledging LGBTIQ+ and mentally ill/alcohol and drug addicts)?

Why should my kids' school do the same?

 

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

54 minutes ago, markm said:

True to a point, but in my mind, not really. Tolkien was incredibly specific and detailed with his description of things, especially landscapes. I read the LOTR series right before the first Jackson film came out in my late 30's. I had wanted to read it all my life and that was the catalyst. I very much enjoyed reading the books, then watching the movies. I read the Silmarillion and several of the pieced together partially finished histories (all made up of course) of Middle Earth. But I don't have the attention to detail to really geek out on a lot of the specifics of the lore as Surge calls it. 

I was learning about classical music and I was interested in the comparisons between Wagner and Tolkien.  They both are credited for sort of inventing whole worlds out of their respective genres-creating cultures of music, history words, music, poetry. That's the stuff I find interesting and the concepts from a literary POV. Not unlike studying religions. I just wanted to be in the know. So, I don't know what level of nerd that makes me. 

In my mind, you can't separate Tolkien, Wagner and H.P. Lovecraft with race. Were they products of their own time or were they racist? Probably both. Part of the multi cultural casting prolly has to do with the pushback about the notion that part of the Middle Earth culture has been argued is a romanticism of Aryan values perhaps not unlike some of the early black metal white power stuff. 

You might think Tolkien was pagan with his love of Norse mythology but he was  ardent Catholic. WWI was definitely a huge influence. A big part of the depiction of the eye Sauron and the orcs and all that was a condemnation the industrial military complex-the mechanization of the world, technology destroying nature-all that sort of stuff. And then a bunch of metal bands identified the orcs. I mean if you were to subtract Tolkien and  Lovecraft, you'd just delete about 40% of metal! OK, that might be a big of an exaggeration. 

If you read his books, you've got kings and queens and guillotines. Fiefdoms, castles, peasants, royalty. It's obviously based on European Feudalism, culturally. It's not even debatable.  There's been a lot of criticism written about his racial views even though I don't think he ever came out and stated his views explicitly. He romanticizes Western and Northern Europe as the best looking and noble creatures. The Valar or Gods  and elves and all that shit and humans who bred with elves were from the west-Western Europe. It's clear as a bell. The good looking women and men are always described as fair-now you can argue if fair means attractive or light skinned but it's both. The more sinister and evil creatures who are described in unflattering ways with features with more swarthy descriptions are rife with racial stereotypes of what a lot of scholars think of depicting negative outdated racist depictions of Asian and afro features ascribed to vile, nasty, evil creatures. 

I just figure in the 1930's the browning of Europe had started and  probably colored his view as he yearned for his own Beowulf mythology glorifying the origins of his heritage. He was a professor of Anglo Saxon studies at the University of Oxford FFS.  I mean the guy was anglophile all the way in his world view-a throwback to Victorian times. I don't really hold it against him. But if you want to make films of his books his love of Anglo Saxon culture has to be addressed. 

It's all there in black and white as it were. The casting choices were no doubt to counter some of these criticisms. Just my take.  

 

So you're saying the author of LOTR himself was a major historical figure which makes his works of fiction historical as well, and that historical status needs to be respected even if it's ostensibly a work of "fantasy" fiction. Fair enough, that's one way to look at it. From my point of view though I've always been happy to give directors the leeway to do some reinterpretation when adapting works of fiction for the screen. Some of these reinterpretations work out better than others, but I figure it is their movie. Like Navy says, you don't like it don't watch it. Personally I've almost always found screen adaptations of literary works which I've actually read to be lacking in some area(s) or another. And I've always been much more concerned with realism and keeping all the facts and details straight when it comes to films based on well known historical facts or even films simply "based on a true story."

[Dead1]

1 hour ago, zackflag said:

Ooooookay buuut..... very very little about fantasy or even sci-fi genres makes much sense to begin with so why would having ethnic diversity among the differing species seem illogical? Like, we're talking about a completely fictional world where dragons exist along with dwarves, wizards, magic, fairies, trolls and orcs and goblins and giant eagles and elves who are immortal...... but if the Hobbits have a bunch of different skin tones then that's a step too far???? That's the point where it all becomes illogical?

It's really strange to me that a fictitious fantasy world must have a strict, codified set of guidelines that must be adhered to or else it's "woke" or whatever.

 

Except none of those groups generally live together.  Fantasy is usually based on middle ages with most people living as peasants and not much intermingling except maybe in large cities in markets (and even then traditionally not).

So the dwarves usually live in underground cities, the Elves in their own realms, the Hobbits in their shire and the Men in their own.    These are like countries.

Fantasy usually involves a journey.  So young Bilbo who is essentially a peasant never meets any of these people until he leaves the Shire on an epic quest.

 

It's no different to say the world in 1000 AD  - sure you had Mayans and Chinese and Arabs and Norse and Seljuks and Chinese and French and Rus but no one really travelled much.  In fact people seldom left their villages or farms! 

Having a multicultural village in Northumbria or in Song Dynasty era China in 1000 AD would be historically implausible.

 

Same applies to fantasy which is based on this stuff.  Note no one really complains about diversity in sci-fi because they have the same technological capabilities we have in terms of moving around.  

 

[AlSymerz]

6 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

 

In my department Acknowledgement of Country is mandatory.

 

I hate the Acknowledgement of Country prayer with a passion.  I work for a secular public service that provides services to anyone regardless of race, religion etc. 

Why acknowledge one group (well now potentially 3 if they do end up implementing bit about about acknowledging LGBTIQ+ and mentally ill/alcohol and drug addicts)?

Why should my kids' school do the same?

 

 

I don't know anyone who considers it a prayer.

And no one has to do it. They might have to listen to someone else say but listening is not a hardship that is worthy of getting upset about.

[Dead1]

34 minutes ago, markm said:

So at the end of the day, if big monied interests want to remake and and reconfigure the pieces of Tolkien's story as a fictional reimagining today's world, Europe or not that helps peoples of all backgrounds enjoy the stories as some of you have said, why not? 

 But there's no denying that it's a fairly comprehensive reworking and reimagining of the original LOTR books.....I'm sure the creators would say they kept the spirit of Tolkien alive.  

Arguably the why not is the same reason we shouldn't dilute other culture eg casting white people as non-white characters like they did back in the old days.

Tolkein is part of British literary condition routed in European culture.

And note people seriously believe that white people should not be allowed to act as non-white cultures.

Indeed Muslims complained the modern remake of Dune didn't feature Muslim actors despite some aspects of culture being similar to Islamic (given Dune is set in the year 10191 AD who knows what racial features the Dune dwellers would have).

 

As for monied interests, you know my opinion there and it lies more with Franklin Roosevelt and even Vladimir Lenin, than it does with Adam Smith and Milton Friedman.   😁

 

[SurgicalBrute]

1 hour ago, navybsn said:

That's a part I don't get either. I mean do enough people have "main character" disease that think their opinion on a franchise or casting decision even registers at a level for it to matter?

It's a social media thing. I think in part it's people venting, in another part it's probably hope that enough people raising hell might make them reconsider. The fact that you can take your bitching directly to a director, studio, whatever because of social media plays into it.

1 hour ago, navybsn said:

These changes aren't being made for the sake of wokeness or inclusion. It's about money. Bring in more fans (in many of these cases they're targeting minorities) so they can expand the audience for more ticket and merchandise sales.

I do agree that the bottom line is money and Hollywood is a slow ship to turn once a course has been set, which is why it's taking them so long to find an equilibrium. That being said, I'm not really sure if the reasoning itself really matters to people when you really get down to it. If I'm a Raiders of the Lost Ark/Indiana Jones fan and the rumored replacement of Indy with his goddaughter actually turns out to be true...am I really going to care if the change was made because of "wokeness" or simply because they want to widen their audience? At the end of the day, I'm most likely going to be pissed they've replaced Indy with not-Indy, which studios will then most likely spin into a toxic fans narrative to deflect from their own fuck up if the movie bombs 

 

2 hours ago, navybsn said:

As a fan, I'm for inclusion. Let more people enjoy the things worth enjoying. I don't really understand why people would be against it unless it's the good old "change is good unless you change my things. Don't touch my thing" mindset.

I've got no problems with inclusion, but I also consider myself a traditionalist, in that I want adaptions to be as faithful as possible to the source. I think part of the problem is this belief that if a main character doesn't look like you, you won't be able to identify with them. The other problem is most studios aren't willing to take many leaps with new properties, so instead of raising the tide for everyone by adding new stories, they just lazily adapt existing properties, which puts at least some degree of their fanbase at odds

[Dead1]

6 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

I don't know anyone who considers it a prayer.

And no one has to do it. They might have to listen to someone else say but listening is not a hardship that is worthy of getting upset about.

As stated, it's mandatory in my workplace.  Y'know departmental policy that we have to abide by.

And it's done as a prayer in the same way Christians say grace before a meal - a meaningless hollow utterance spoken ritualistically using the exact same phrase each time.  

The arts community do spice it up but it's still done in a quasi-religious way.

 

And it's promoting a religious concept of indigenous as spiritual guardians of Australia and also implying we should be grateful they let us live here.

 

I usually mute the microphone on the first part of the meeting just to ignore it.

[SurgicalBrute]

2 hours ago, Dead1 said:

I can relate to it.  Recently D&D stopped having racial/species features because they viewed it as promoting racism (I kid you not).

I think you and I have some overlapping interests...I've been following this as well, as WotC keeps digging the stupidity hole deeper and deeper. They're going to end up with an absolutely bland as hell, neutered product.

[Dead1]

5 minutes ago, SurgicalBrute said:

 

I've got no problems with inclusion, but I also consider myself a traditionalist, in that I want adaptions to be as faithful as possible to the source. I think part of the problem is this belief that if a main character doesn't look like you, you won't be able to identify with them. The other problem is most studios aren't willing to take many leaps with new properties, so instead of raising the tide for everyone by adding new stories, they just lazily adapt existing properties, which puts at least some degree of their fanbase at odds

 

Nail hit on the head.  I certainly don't think a character needs to look like me for me to identify with them.

Hell, I just watched Wednesday and I really identified with Wednesday Adams who is a 15 year old Hispanic girl.  She was nearly everything I was in my youth and even today - attracted to darkness, had an air of superiority, despised mainstreamness, lonely and struggled to trust people.

 

And Hollywood is lazy - how many Robin Hoods or Spidermen  or Iron Men or Terminators or Fast n Furious or whatever do we need?

 

Massive world out there and so many interesting stories that could be told on the big screen.

[SurgicalBrute]

1 hour ago, markm said:

True to a point, but in my mind, not really. Tolkien was incredibly specific and detailed with his description of things, especially landscapes.

^This...I think people are mistaking the idea of some studio coming up with their own fantasy show, with the fact that when you're adapting someone's work, you are quite literally working with already created ideas about about the setting's history and society...it's people and places. If a studio isn't willing to stick to the structure they paid money to license, then what's the point of paying for the property, other than to have some kind of name recognition that's going to piss off as many people as it doesn't

1 hour ago, zackflag said:

Ooooookay buuut..... very very little about fantasy or even sci-fi genres makes much sense to begin with so why would having ethnic diversity among the differing species seem illogical? Like, we're talking about a completely fictional world where dragons exist along with dwarves, wizards, magic, fairies, trolls and orcs and goblins and giant eagles and elves who are immortal...... but if the Hobbits have a bunch of different skin tones then that's a step too far????

The term Mark was looking for is "internal consistency". It doesn't have to be logical, but it has to make sense within the rules established by the setting. When you take someone else's work, and adapt it, there are expectations on that adaption that it will stick to the pre-established rules laid down in the source material it's drawing from. When you deviate from that you're going to draw negative comments from at least some section of the fandom. The more the adaption is seen to deviate, the more you run the risk of angering a section of fandom

[Dead1]

50 minutes ago, markm said:

But there's still going to be "something rotten in Denmark". Not so crazy about fucking with the words. I'm dubious about changing Hamlet to being something rotten in Ontario or Senegal. 

What about a bunch of white guys doing a traditional Maori Haka or the Seven Samurai set in Japan with all white actors or Nelson Mandela movie with an Indian cast as Nelson Mandela?

 

Though when it comes to Shakespeare I actually enjoy the messing around with the setting.  Some of my favourite versions of Shakespeare were set in 1920s (Midsummer's Night Dream) or a 1930s type world (Macbeth).  I would like to see some of the cyberpunk versions of the plays (eg Richard III).

But Shakespeare's plays are not as fleshed out in terms of world building unlike LOTR or Star Wars or Marvel or whatever. 

4 minutes ago, SurgicalBrute said:

 

The term Mark was looking for is "internal consistency". It doesn't have to be logical, but it has to make sense within the rules established by the setting. When you take someone else's work, and adapt it, there are expectations on that adaption that it will stick to the pre-established rules laid down in the source material it's drawing from

That describes it perfectly.