Random metal thoughts

[AlSymerz]

18 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

As stated, it's mandatory in my workplace.  Y'know departmental policy that we have to abide by.

And it's done as a prayer in the same way Christians say grace before a meal - a meaningless hollow utterance spoken ritualistically using the exact same phrase each time.  

The arts community do spice it up but it's still done in a quasi-religious way.

 

And it's promoting a religious concept of indigenous as spiritual guardians of Australia and also implying we should be grateful they let us live here.

 

I usually mute the microphone on the first part of the meeting just to ignore it.

It's mandatory in a lot of places and has been for many years. We've all heard it and many of us in this country, including me, have spoken it, but I still don't know anyone who thinks of it as a prayer.

Muting it is obviously your right but getting upset because it happens seems pointless, getting offended by it seems even less productive.

[Dead1]

11 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

It's mandatory in a lot of places and has been for many years. We've all heard it and many of us in this country, including me, have spoken it, but I still don't know anyone who thinks of it as a prayer.

Muting it is obviously your right but getting upset because it happens seems pointless, getting offended by it seems even less productive.

Recognising a bunch of people as traditional custodians of the land and paying respect to their ancestors using the same words each time is very much a prayer.

 

Here's the generic wording used before every meeting.

Quote

'I begin today by acknowledging the Traditional Custodians of the land on which we <gather/meet> today, and pay my respects to their Elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples here today.

 

 

And definition of a prayer as from Wikipedia:

 

Quote

Prayer is an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with an object of worship through deliberate communication.

I would argue that acknowledgement of country/welcome to country is very much an invocation or act seeking to activate rapport with the indigenous community (as well as spiritual concept of "Traditional Custodian") through deliberate communication. 

 

 

As a secular atheist and socialist who believes in equality of all and that the public service represents and serves all, I find it very offensive.

[navybsn]

Woke (finding reasons to be offended) and anti-woke (finding reasons to be offended by the people finding reasons to be offended) are essentially the same dumbass thing from opposite sides of the fence. I dunno about how it plays out in Aussieland, but from what I've seen in the states, they play the same but to different ends of the socio-political spectrum. Playbook is the same. Bitching about a non prayer is the same as bitching about a prayer. Just don't participate. Stand there if attendance is required but don't say anything. I get "have a blessed day", "god bless you", and "prayers" all the time. We have an official chaplain who gets airtime in leadership meetings daily but only ever offers christian advice/prayers from his particular denomination which is specifically 1) against the chaplain code and 2) a clear infringement considering he works for the US government. I could bitch and complain, raise all sorts of hell, make a scene everytime someone says some pointless thing they feel is the right thing to say in a situation, but I chose to direct my energy in positive pursuits. I'm a card carrying member of the Satanic Temple, but I don't see the point in challenging something that has no effect on me or the rights of others just to make a point. I just choose to focus on something more productive.

Honestly seems a non-reason for getting bothered.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

1 hour ago, SurgicalBrute said:

I mean...you just told me that my entire point was a giant crock of shit, so I'm not really sure what other options you're seeing here. Whether you think they were assholes was never my point. Either you think most of those people were outraged because they were racist, or you think they were motivated by something else.

I will answer you by saying that it seemed pretty clear to me that the amount of outrage about a black Ariel was directly proportional to how racist the complainers were. But I'm not saying I think all your points are illegitimate and there's nothing whatsoever to them. I'm just saying that the whole "but the lore!" thing certainly does provide a convenient excuse for those of us who maybe don't want to publicly cross that line into being openly racist and politically incorrect. Not unlike the bogus excuses I heard offered by Republicans about the overturning of Roe v Wade. Which no matter how nominally plausible any of them were, they were still for the most part just a smoke screen to try to hide their real motivation which was fanatical religious authoritarianism. I find this Christian Nationalism trend to be a scary thing. Because at the end of the day without religious fanaticism driving it, R v W just doesn't get overturned, period. And without racism there wouldn't have been such a huge uproar like we saw about a black Ariel. Even if a relatively small percentage of people did legitimately have various other motivations.

Okay...but do you understand that I'm not trying to convince you to view things like they do? What I'm trying to do is explain that there are people out there who are passionate about all sorts of things, including animation. You're more than welcome to think that's stupid...more power to you, but some people feel very strongly that the Little Mermaid should look like the Little Mermaid they grew up with in the animated cartoon.

Yes, clearly some people feel very strongly about their entertainment and can be very passionate. And yes, I think that's unbelievably stupid. Because the original Little Mermaid movie with the white Ariel is still intact and anyone who cares can still go watch it whenever they want. No one owes them a new modern LM movie made to their strict white Ariels only need apply specifications. A new film with a black actress doesn't take their original beloved Little Mermaid away from them. I think I have the right to speak on this as I myself can get quite passionate about gatekeeping true black metal. But I am quite aware of just how fucking stupid and trivial that really is as well. 

Great...but you missed my point. That door swings both ways. If someone thinks race/gender/sexuality swapping is totally fine then what the fuck are they even complaining about? If they take issue with it, then why the fuck are they fine selectively giving some films a pass?

Yes, that's precisely what the meme and I are asking! How come so many people are only outraged when it comes to a black girl playing the LM Ariel role, but yet they've stayed quiet (suggesting they have no problem with it or they just don't even care) when white men have been comically inserted into films portraying historical characters of various non-white races? Racism couldn't possibly have had anything at all to do with that outrage, could it? Nah, that's too patently ridiculous to even consider, right?

I'm not calling you a racist Surge and I'm not saying there's a racist under every bed, just like you're not suggesting that racism is dead and buried and now totally a thing of the past. You know I don't care about the Little Mermaid or LOTR or the Marvel universe or any of that nerd fantasy crap. I don't even care that much about exposing who's a racist and who's not. I'm not suggesting we round them all up and put them on chain gangss. I just have trouble letting it slide and not calling out the bullshit when I see people offering disingenuous and very thinly veiled bullshit excuses for stuff. That's really my biggest issue here, moreso than the racism itself. If someone's gonna be a racist then they should at least be able to admit to themselves (if no one else) that their motivatiuons are racist and stop with the BS excuses and explanations. I have an 8 year old. I hear bullshit made up excuses every single day. I think I've gotten pretty good at spotting the BS when I see it, if I do say so myself.

And I'm sorry for the misunderstanding bro, but my door definitely does not swing both ways. 😏

 

 

[AlSymerz]

14 minutes ago, navybsn said:

Honestly seems a non-reason for getting bothered.

Exactly.

 

[Dead1]

35 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

when white men have been comically inserted into films portraying historical characters of various non-white races

There has been very much a backlash against this. 

 

Eg Ben Kingsley portrayed the Mandarin in Iron Man 3.  Mandarin was an Asian stereotype (typical Asian bad guy from 1930s pulp fiction) .

Marvel has since retconned in Shang-Chi movie that Kingsley's Mandarin was just an actor hired by the actual villain Wenwu who is played by Asian actor Tony Leung and certainly not a stereotype.

 

Eg Apu from Simpsons has been removed as he is voiced by Hank Azaria who is white.

Eg White voice actor for black character Missy in show Big Mouth was replaced in season 4 by a black actor.

I've also already mentioned the unhappiness Muslims displayed about not having any starring roles in Dune.

I don't watch much tv so these come from my limited viewing and there's probably more.

 

44 minutes ago, navybsn said:

Woke (finding reasons to be offended) and anti-woke (finding reasons to be offended by the people finding reasons to be offended) are essentially the same dumbass thing from opposite sides of the fence. I dunno about how it plays out in Aussieland, but from what I've seen in the states, they play the same but to different ends of the socio-political spectrum. Playbook is the same. Bitching about a non prayer is the same as bitching about a prayer. Just don't participate. Stand there if attendance is required but don't say anything. I get "have a blessed day", "god bless you", and "prayers" all the time. We have an official chaplain who gets airtime in leadership meetings daily but only ever offers christian advice/prayers from his particular denomination which is specifically 1) against the chaplain code and 2) a clear infringement considering he works for the US government. I could bitch and complain, raise all sorts of hell, make a scene everytime someone says some pointless thing they feel is the right thing to say in a situation, but I chose to direct my energy in positive pursuits. I'm a card carrying member of the Satanic Temple, but I don't see the point in challenging something that has no effect on me or the rights of others just to make a point. I just choose to focus on something more productive.

Honestly seems a non-reason for getting bothered.

 

I'd rather people just keep their political and religious views at work to themselves.  I certainly don't want it rammed down my throat at work.

If people want to give praise to the spirits of indigenous ancestors, they should do it in private. 

And remember I work for a public service, not some church run health facility or an organisation run by an aboriginal agency.  Our guiding values are basically secularism, equality and impartiality.  Praying to and thanking Aborigines goes against those core values.

Ironically whilst we increasingly prostate ourselves to minorities, values such as impartiality, integrity and accountability are being flushed down the toilet. 

 

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

6 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

There has been very much a backlash against this. 

 

Eg Ben Kingsley portrayed the Mandarin in Iron Man 3.  Mandarin was an Asian stereotype (typical Asian bad guy from 1930s pulp fiction) .

Marvel has since retconned in Shang-Chi movie that Kingsley's Mandarin was just an actor hired by the actual villain Wenwu who is played by Asian actor Tony Leung and certainly not a stereotype.

 

Eg Apu from Simpsons has been removed as he is voiced by Hank Azaria who is white.

Eg White voice actor for black character Missy in show Big Mouth was replaced in season 4 by a black actor.

 

I've also already mentioned the unhappiness Muslims displayed about not having any starring roles in Dune.

 

I don't watch much tv so these come from my limited viewing and there's probably more.

I guess they must've figured Ben won an Oscar for his portrayal of Ghandi so hopefully he could do the same for Iron Man. I haven't actually seen any of the Iron Man flicks so I guess I'll never know if Ben nailed the stereotypical villianous Chinaman character or not.

I don't watch any TV at all except for football, basketball or Netflix. And Youtube videos if you wanna count that as TV.  And I don't really spend time on social media unless you wanna count the forum here. So that's how I missed all these fascinating news items and did not realize that modern day Hollywood was under attack for casting white men in non-white roles, even if they're just voice actors. But I did hear about the Little Mermaid thing. I'll betcha most of the people complaining about Kingsley and Azaria being white men in non-white roles were not the same people who were up in arms about a black Ariel.

[navybsn]

31 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

And remember I work for a public service, not some church run health facility or an organisation run by an aboriginal agency.  Our guiding values are basically secularism, equality and impartiality.  Praying to and thanking Aborigines goes against those core values.

I work for the government too. No different here. Same rules apply. It's easier to just not put time or energy into being bothered. If we suddenly had an equivalent thing replacing Native Americans with aborigines, I would say the same.

I worked up until very recently for a very homosexual Nurse Exec who made a point to make the biggest fuckin deal ever about Pride week events and everything else related to gay culture and history. Even "forced" our participation. Just never saw the point of troubling myself over it. Let him have his thing. Costs me nothing. And if it makes them happy, well happy people are easier to work for. So win-win.

[Dead1]

23 minutes ago, navybsn said:

I work for the government too. No different here. Same rules apply. It's easier to just not put time or energy into being bothered. If we suddenly had an equivalent thing replacing Native Americans with aborigines, I would say the same.

I worked up until very recently for a very homosexual Nurse Exec who made a point to make the biggest fuckin deal ever about Pride week events and everything else related to gay culture and history. Even "forced" our participation. Just never saw the point of troubling myself over it. Let him have his thing. Costs me nothing. And if it makes them happy, well happy people are easier to work for. So win-win.

No one is happy to do the prayer.  It's generally muttered out forcibly.   

The people that get the most excited about it are also the most incompetent and/or corrupt sycophants that should be sacked and/or gaoled.  I don't wish those fuckers any happiness.  Maybe painful deaths for them and their loved ones, but certainly not happiness.

 

34 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

. But I did hear about the Little Mermaid thing. I'll betcha most of the people complaining about Kingsley and Azaria being white men in non-white roles were not the same people who were up in arms about a black Ariel.

People will "defend their own."  We are tribal/herd creatures.  So Muslims complain about no Muslims in  Dune and white people complain about black Ariel.  

This will never change (in fact I suspect at some stage in near future tribalism will get out of control as inequality destroys economic foundation of western societies - again already happening).

[SurgicalBrute]

10 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

But I'm not saying all your points are illegitimate and there's nothing whatsoever to them. I'm just saying that the whole "but the lore!" thing certainly does provide a convenient excuse for those of us who maybe don't want to publicly cross that line into being openly racist and politically incorrect.

...and the constant accusations about "dog whistling" provide a very easy excuse for any studio to avoid having to defend against awkward criticisms pointing out their hypocrisy regarding why they're okay with some race/sex/sexuality swaps, but not others. I mean, whose really got a bigger motive to lie...a bunch of individual social media accounts with barely 100 followers each, or a business that could lose hundreds of millions if the narrative gets away from them?

...but let me put it another way. Do you honestly believe that if Disney had just made a completely new movie about a mermaid, and cast a black actress, they would have received a fraction of the outrage they got?

42 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Yes, clearly some people feel very strongly about their entertainment and can be very passionate. And yes, I think that's unbelievably stupid.

Okay...so I'll take that as a "NO"

Whether you think it's stupid or not isn't what I'm trying to focus on here. For the sake of argument I acknowledge that you find it stupid...more than that, I completely agree on your point regarding the fact it doesn't affect the original. I said as much to a buddy of mine when we had a similar conversation. But you specifically asked me about the live-action Little Mermaid outrage, and how it fits into my "bullshit" theory, so I'm trying to address that.

So don't get bogged down on the details, because the whole core of what I'm arguing really comes down to the basic mindset of "no, that's mine...how dare you change it", which can literally be applied to anything. If you can look at it from that view, I think you'll understand why I think the prejudicial component is overstated.

1 hour ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Yes, that's precisely what the meme and I are asking! How come so many people are only outraged when it comes to a black girl playing the LM Ariel role, but yet they've stayed quiet (suggesting they have no problem with it or they just don't even care) when white men have been comically inserted into films portraying historical characters of various non-white races?

They're not...and if you and that meme believe that's actually still the case, then ask yourself when was the last time you actually saw a character in a movie get whitewashed and not get absolutely raked over the coals for it? Hell, the most recent movie on that meme came out roughly 12 years ago. You may as well be asking why is no one criticizing movies from the 1960's for not being closed captioned?

Now feel free to explain why I can give you dozens of recent TV shows and movies where the exact opposite happens, and anyone who points out the double standard, and how it's every bit as messed up, is instantly promoted to the position of grand high dragon.

[Dead1]

In other news Anthrax keep talking about this album that was supposed to have been out 12-24 months ago.

No doubt KK will laugh heartily!

https://blabbermouth.net/news/joey-belladonna-says-theres-progress-being-made-on-next-anthrax-album

[AlSymerz]

I've given up laughing at Anthrax, there isn't enough hours in a day to laugh at them as much as they deserve. Every interview they do lately makes them a bigger laughing stock. The day after Joey's interview Charlie did one that made Joey's comments look silly.

[Dead1]

What did Charlie say?

[AlSymerz]

I can't find the article now, but Joey said something along the lines of he can't put into words what is happening but it will ready when it's ready or start when it's ready. Charlie then said something about having done 11 songs of which half of them are solid keepers and they are coming along well, but he wants a full album of strong songs. Even if Joey's just a paid monkey to Scott and Charlie's whims they obviously tell him sweet FA about what is going on where they are at with writing.

[JonoBlade]

9 hours ago, Dead1 said:

In fact it kind of destroys DnD which is typical good guys v bad guys.  All of a sudden those goblins you're smashing are just impoverished wretches forced into crime and violence due to lack of other options!  My brother has already gone down this politically correct path and he is now a pain to game with.

I did not know that. Ironically, while I too was on the "RoP makes no logical sense in its casting choices" bandwagon, I like the idea of giving goblins and orcs some more complexity to their motivations. The black and white, good and evil aspect of fantasy is too lazy. Like the Bond villain that was just evil and wanted to take over the world for the sake of it. These days character motivations get explored a bit more. Which is a good thing for storytelling.

RoP was shit because it was written shitly. If it had been written better a lot of the backlash (not all but some) would have been muted.

In more contemporary modern day storytelling I welcome the diverse casting/script decisions. My wife and I have been enjoying Billions recently. It has a non-binary main character who adds a new dimension and it was a clever way of introducing me to the concept without it being forced down my throat. By contrast, when the main character from Umbrella Academy went non-binary it felt more forced. The overall writing just wasn't as good. That was a more difficult pill to swallow.

Gay characters are now all over everything. It works best when it is incidental and eases the more conservative viewer into it. I was raised in a homophobic and generally racist society (but by fairly progressive parents - except for the gay thing, that was definitely off limits or you'd go to hell) so its taken a lifetime of deprogramming.

I feel in a good place now. Now I hate all humans equally. 8 billion wretches on a dying planet. Backwards societies that breed like rats get on my tits....but the forwards societies are just as bad or worse.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

1 hour ago, SurgicalBrute said:

...and the constant accusations about "dog whistling" provide a very easy excuse for any studio to avoid having to defend against awkward criticisms pointing out their hypocrisy regarding why they're okay with some race/sex/sexuality swaps, but not others. I mean, whose really got a bigger motive to lie...a bunch of individual social media accounts with barely 100 followers each, or a business that could lose hundreds of millions if the narrative gets away from them?

...but let me put it another way. Do you honestly believe that if Disney had just made a completely new movie about a mermaid, and cast a black actress, they would have received a fraction of the outrage they got?

Okay...so I'll take that as a "NO"

Whether you think it's stupid or not isn't what I'm trying to focus on here. For the sake of argument I acknowledge that you find it stupid...more than that, I completely agree on your point regarding the fact it doesn't affect the original. I said as much to a buddy of mine when we had a similar conversation. But you specifically asked me about the live-action Little Mermaid outrage, and how it fits into my "bullshit" theory, so I'm trying to address that.

So don't get bogged down on the details, because the whole core of what I'm arguing really comes down to the basic mindset of "no, that's mine...how dare you change it", which can literally be applied to anything. If you can look at it from that view, I think you'll understand why I think the prejudicial component is overstated.

They're not...and if you and that meme believe that's actually still the case, then ask yourself when was the last time you actually saw a character in a movie get whitewashed and not get absolutely raked over the coals for it? Hell, the most recent movie on that meme came out roughly 12 years ago. You may as well be asking why is no one criticizing movies from the 1960's for not being closed captioned?

Now feel free to explain why I can give you dozens of recent TV shows and movies where the exact opposite happens, and anyone who points out the double standard, and how it's every bit as messed up, is instantly promoted to the position of grand high dragon.

I was holding out for Imperial Wizard. 

Alright Surge, don't you worry my friend, I won't make you have to resort to your trademark visual aids. I don't keep up with entertainment/celebrity 'news' on any level because with few exceptions I'm just not interested. So I admit I'm never going to be fully aware of every case of public overreaction or outrage over whatever dumb shit that's happened in Hollywood this week. Since we seem to be living in a new age where people are chronically offended, either directly for themselves or indirectly on behalf of others, I guess I tend to tune a lot of the superfluous noise out when I can. But I shouldn't be surprised that Hollywood is now taking flak for every stupid little fucking thing big or small, even the whiteness of their voice actors.

And since social media has become the dominant form of communication in our society, that means nowadays every idle thought or complaint that once upon a time would have likely been no more than an offhand comment just between someone's friends or family and then forgotten about 5 minutes later, now gets Tweeted or whatever in a stream of consciousness, and these comments can now linger indefinitely and sometimes if you get enough of these comments they can even begin to take on a life of their own electronically.

I'm not disputing that the catalyst that triggered the black Ariel backlash was that they'd changed the race of a previously established character. That seems fairly obvious and I'm not sure why you think I've argued otherwise, or why you think my stipulating to it would disprove any of my other points. I understand that not everyone who was offended by this change were all using identical reasoning as for why. We all know that lots of people like to publicly bitch and complain about all kinds of things on social media these days and for lots of different reasons both big and small, real and imagined. And that's ok, we all have the right to complain about shit, even if no one else can be fucked to give a shit. But most of these complaints won't blow up and go viral like the black Ariel thing did, to the point where even someone like me who's not tuned into this shit at all heard about this one.

I was really just trying to say that I believe this Ariel thing wouldn't have been blown up into such a huge deal as it was, if it wasn't for the fact that it was taking a cute little white girl character and replacing her with a black girl. It seems as if for some reason many people took this as an attack on them personally. I'm really not trying to say that everyone who complained about the switch is by definition a racist. But I am saying that I believe the racial factor exacerbated this situation and played a big part in why this thing was able to blow up as quickly as it did and then snowballed out of control and became such a big avalanche of stupidity.

I think I'm hearing that you understand and admit that there was something of a racial component to this black Ariel backlash situation, but you believe that it's just been overstated and given too much weight as a motivation. So it seems we're really just divided on the specific amount that we each feel racism directly factored into the outrage. I say the underlying current of racism even if in some cases it might have been subconscious, was the accelerant for this bonfire. And you disagreed, you seem to genuinely think it was mostly superfans that would have seriously resented any change at all to a beloved Disney character. To me that just sounds like there were a lot of people trying to obscure or deny their basest underlying knee jerk racist inclinations in an attempt to make themselves feel better. I'm sure most people don't like to think of themselves as racists. But I think it's one thing to have racist thoughts, or thoughts bordering on racism, and another thing entirely to feel the need to broadcast them to the entire world and make a big deal out of something so trivial as a Hollywood casting decision.

Problem is there's really no way to prove either of our theories one way or the other considering there must have been thousands of people who expressed their outrage at the idea of a black Ariel. So it seems that our friendly little disagreement could conceivably go on indefinitely without ever reaching anything approaching a definitive conclusion. And what useful purpose would that serve? We've each stated our case rather thoroughly now so I propose we negotiate a cease fire agreement and get back to the black metal. You can feel free to take the last shot and have the last word if that would please you.

[JonoBlade]

2 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

To me that just sounds like there were a lot of people trying to obscure or deny their basest underlying knee jerk racist inclinations in an attempt to make themselves feel better. I'm sure most people don't like to think of themselves as racists. But I think it's one thing to have racist thoughts, or thoughts bordering on racism, and another thing entirely to feel the need to broadcast them to the entire world and make a big deal out of something so trivial as a Hollywood casting decision.

Casting of a main character in a Hollywood movie will have a number of checks and balances and I reckon there was  an element in this decision of "let's definitely go with the black girl, some people will lose their shit over it and its great publicity."

[markm]

3 hours ago, JonoBlade said:

In more contemporary modern day storytelling I welcome the diverse casting/script decisions.

That's pretty much my point made with 10,000 fewer words. Of course, diverse casting is important. Of course it's important for people to see themselves represented in film. Of course, we want all kinds of actors with all kinds of backgrounds and all body types, sexuality represented but every group doesn't need to represented in every production. Setting and context matter. When you change a "thing" and keep changing and adapting the "thing", eventually the "thing"  ceases to be the  "thing".  

[JonoBlade]

3 hours ago, markm said:

Of course it's important for people to see themselves represented in film. Of course, we want all kinds of actors with all kinds of backgrounds and all body types, sexuality represented but every group doesn't need to represented in every production. 

At the risk of falling down a rabbit hole, while I agree that unrealistic expectations imposed on people, particularly young girls, is worthy of total commitment to stamp out I do draw the line when it comes to normalising being unhealthy.

It is righteous that stick thin vapid empty botox vessels should be ridiculed and vilified as unrealistic role models for a woman, and most people can accept that we can't all look like Chris Hemsworth, but self-inflicted misery via the medium of the pie should not be celebrated under the guise of diversity.

I'm not sure if it is really a problem or not. People most likely aren't fat because they see it on screen....but we must be vigilant.

There was a show called "This is Us." It is not high art or anything but enjoyable enough. One of the primary characters was morbidly obese, to the point where every time she appeared on screen I'd dive under a blanket.  This was an opportunity to explore the issues (which they did to some degree) but by the end of the run it was never resolved. In reality that woman would be dead by sometime in her 60s as the body just wouldn't be able to cope anymore. But there were flashforwards scenes (possibly in her 60s) where the weight thing seemed not to be an issue. This is not realistic or helpful.

In the same way that I welcome black women in positions of power on screen (because I have come to realise that black women rule), I somewhat welcome fat people on screen if there is going to be an honest discussion and a resolution (either deciding to lose weight or dying). 

[SurgicalBrute]

i understand you're ready to agree to disagree, and I'm fine with that too. I do want to clarify a couple of points though, just for future thought.

7 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I'm not disputing that the catalyst that triggered the black Ariel backlash was that they'd changed the race of a previously established character. That seems fairly obvious and I'm not sure why you think I've argued otherwise, or why you think my stipulating to it would disprove any of my other points.

That really wasn't what I was trying to say. My point was that it was being changed at all was the catalyst. To put it more simply...you're focus is on the fact that they changed the character's race. Mine is on the fact that they changed the character's race.

 

7 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

But I am saying that I believe the racial factor exacerbated this situation and played a big part in why this thing was able to blow up as quickly as it did and then snowballed out of control and became such a big avalanche of stupidity.

I do understand that, but I want to add that I think you're maybe overlooking some greater context. The controversy around the Little Mermaid casting didn't develop in a vacuum. It's just the current culmination of a larger pattern in Hollywood right now...Whether you think it's in an effort to push "wokeness" or just a mercenary grab for money from new audiences, the fact is it's become such a frequent thing that it's turned into a meme.

The overall result is that the more studios push forward with their goal of adapting properties with established fanbases for "modern audiences" (their new buzzword for diversity) the angrier and more vocal some of those fans are going to get about the changes. Not necessarily because they're prejudiced, but more so, because studios aren't being respectful of this thing they're passionate about. 

 

7 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I think I'm hearing that you understand and admit that there was something of a racial component to this black Ariel backlash situation, but you believe that it's just been overstated and given too much weight as a motivation

Like you said earlier, I'm not stupid enough to believe racism doesn't exist. I have no doubt that at least some percentage of the outrage does comes from people who actually are legitimately racist, and I have no doubt that a lot of these actors who take these roles are getting some absolutely vile comments made to them by these people (...and anyone doing that can go fuck themselves, I'm not defending that kind of bullshit).

What I am saying is that the official narrative of "prejudicial fans" that always comes out almost immediately after one of these casting decisions, doesn't, in my mind, represent the mindset of the majority of the people who are upset. Not when you really think about the devoted/possessive nature many fans develop toward certain franchises. Now, are they entitled...no doubt. Are they assholes with how they sometimes go about complaining...absolutely. But it doesn't make them bigots, and it doesn't mean their complaint isn't valid...especially if you're someone who also, rightly, takes issue with whitewashing minority characters.

 

7 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

To me that just sounds like there were a lot of people trying to obscure or deny their basest underlying knee jerk racist inclinations in an attempt to make themselves feel better. I'm sure most people don't like to think of themselves as racists. But I think it's one thing to have racist thoughts, or thoughts bordering on racism, and another thing entirely to feel the need to broadcast them to the entire world and make a big deal out of something so trivial as a Hollywood casting decision.

Which was why I was trying so hard to get you to consider these things from the standpoint of the people who really care about them. It's easy to call something trivial when you have no real stake in it (and yes...grand scheme and all that), and it's easy to call it racism when the source material has no importance to you, but that's not where a lot of these people are coming from. If you can put aside any preconceived notions about the topic, and try to look at it from the same point of view these fans are coming at it, you can see that things like character appearance aren't trivial to them.

Interestingly enough, I suspect your viewpoint probably mirrors a lot of the thoughts of the people who make the decisions on these shows/movies (i.e....it's a minor thing, who cares), which is why I often think they really don't understand their own audience when they adapt these properties.

 

You're right though, there's no way to prove my point of view. I can really only come at it as someone who is still heavily tied into a lot of these formerly niche communities, and knows my own thoughts on these often arbitrary changes. As I said before, I'm a traditionalist. I want things to stay as true to the source material as possible and it does irritate me to see things changed just for the sake of changing them. That being said, I feel no need to feed into the stupidity that often explodes from these changes. Nothing is forcing me to engage, and nine times out of ten it just makes everything worse by muddying the waters for any legitimate criticism.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

5 hours ago, markm said:

That's pretty much my point made with 10,000 fewer words. Of course, diverse casting is important. Of course it's important for people to see themselves represented in film. Of course, we want all kinds of actors with all kinds of backgrounds and all body types, sexuality represented but every group doesn't need to represented in every production. Setting and context matter. When you change a "thing" and keep changing and adapting the "thing", eventually the "thing" ceases to be the "thing".  

See now I couldn't care less about diverse casting. I don't need to see ethnic diversity or sexual diversity in every fucking film and tv show. I just look at this from the standpoint that they are spending a lot of money to remake an animated feature into a live action movie and they cast this 22 year old grammy winning girl Halle Bailey in the lead role of Ariel. And then everyone lost their collective shit over this simply because she was black. Think how she must feel, she didn't do anything wrong, she just went in to audition for a role and then got picked, and now she must feel like everyone hates her. I'm thinking she must have a certain something going for her or else they probably wouldn't have risked picking her for a lead role in a major film that would likely be expected to gross hundreds of millions. Give the poor girl a chance!

How would you feel if it was your daughter who decided she was going to to follow in your footsteps and take up acting. So she went on some auditions and then got selected for a lead role in a film - and then there was a public outcry because many people felt her racial makeup was inappropriate and disqualified her for the role? I mean this is acting, where people take on roles and play parts that aren't necessarily anything like their actual real life selves. The best actors play all kinds of diverse parts, transforming themselves into someone else, going that extra mile to do whatever the role requires, never wanting to repeat themselves by doing the same thing twice or risk getting typecast. You can't tell me that it's an absolutely essential, intrinsic, non-negotiable part of this Ariel character for her to be white, the original character was just a fucking cartoon mermaid FFS. I don't think mermaids are race specific, anyone could play a mermaid as long as they can fit her for that prosthetic fish tail. This is not a serious dramatic production we're talking about here, it's a kid's movie. If they had cast Miss Bailey as the lead in the Princess Diana movie or something like that then I would agree she's not right for the role.

And in your case Mark, not to get too personal or disclose too much...but imagine if after 'auditioning' a few women to be your wife all those many years ago you selected the same one that you did, but then your family had lost their minds and told you they just couldn't accept this, and that you weren't welcome in their home anymore and they would not be wanting any contact with you or their future grandchildren because they had always imagined the role of your wife being played by a white girl. How would that have made you and your betrothed feel? You might think this scenario is pretty far fetched, but my daughter faced just such a situation when she married a black Dominican dude 8 years ago and this turned out to be a huge problem for her mother's side of the family. My daughter and her mother aren't even on speaking terms with each other anymore and they likely never will be again, mainly because of the disgusting way they treated her husband with the unbridled disrespect and the racial slurs and the naked contempt. I feel somewhat responsible for marrying that ignorant bitch in the first place back in '88.

I remember my daughter being hesitant to tell me about him too after they'd started dating 11 years ago when she was 21 because she didn't know how I'd react to the fact that he was black and also 10 years her senior. I told her as long as you love each other I don't care who you're with, because I know from first-hand experience that not everyone is lucky enough to ever find that in life. You've gotta take it where you can get it. And now 11 years later I really like my son in law, we get along great, he's a good dude, a hard worker and a great dad to my 3 awesome grandkids. And he loves my cooking and laughs at my jokes which is always a plus. So this workled out good for me because without a retirement plan I'll probably end up living with them when I'm old and decrepit, which could be in just a few short years. I hate that they live in Florida, I rank it 50th out of 50 states, mostly because of the weather. But it doesn't really matter because when the dementia sets in then I guess I won't know or care which state I'm in. And they do have central air. 

[SurgicalBrute]

5 hours ago, JonoBlade said:

Casting of a main character in a Hollywood movie will have a number of checks and balances and I reckon there was  an element in this decision of "let's definitely go with the black girl, some people will lose their shit over it and its great publicity."

This has definitely become a thing in the last couple of years. Think they call it "fan baiting". It drums up publicity, it creates a sense of sympathy towards the product, making people more favorably inclined towards it, and it's a ready scapegoat if the production fails

[navybsn]

32 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I hate that they live in Florida, I rank it 50th out of 50 states, mostly because of the weather.

I take distinct issue with this. I mean have you ever been to Mississippi, Alabama, Lousiana, or Texas? Fuck Arkansas for that matter. We suck but give us some credit for not being those shit holes. I say 45th at worst.

[FatherAlabaster]

43 minutes ago, navybsn said:

I take distinct issue with this. I mean have you ever been to Mississippi, Alabama, Lousiana, or Texas? Fuck Arkansas for that matter. We suck but give us some credit for not being those shit holes. I say 45th at worst.

Giving Oklahoma a bit of a pass there, aren't you?

[markm]

Goat Master General said a bunch of stuff

Then Mark said:

Well, this is getting somewhat off topic, but This is random metal thoughts-except it's not metal but what do I care? Yeah, I have nothing to hide. You and I are different in some ways, but we're both pretty much open books and wear our hearts on our sleeves.

I avoided being explicit with the details of my marriage years ago because this the 'net, but I mean, if a 57 year old man can't openly say he married a black woman 28 years ago in 2022, then WTF?

I will say my daughter who is pretty lite skinned often gests asked if she's Hispanic or asked "what are you" and has had no shortage of amorous white dudes vying for her affections. She'll often say she doesn't think of her self as black or white-she's just _____ insert first name, which I won't mention here. 

It's been said for the young set, that while black women and Asian men get the short end of the stick on dating apps, multi racial daters are seen as in vogue and sought after, especially those that are more racially ambiguous because maybe they're seen as exotic or something. And let's face, mixed race people are often better looking than their parents.

Multi racial people are going to rule the world or be destroyed by right wing white nationalists that want to scrap the constitution and instill dictators to nuke us back to the middle ages -it will be a battle of LOTR proportions. Guess that's what we're in the midst right now in the U.S-Multi culturalism or civil war. 

As far as the Disney thing goes, I'm not weighing in on that as I'm not a Disney person and generally dislike Disney corp. It's not political or anything, it's more the family oriented generic 1950's Norman Rockwell portrait of things is completely uninteresting to me. Yeah, I know they're more than that. But to me, Disney will always be the stuff that came out before 1980 or whatever-Bambi and Fantasia or Escape to Witch Mountain-basically stuff for kids. Plus, I'm not a big animation fan. 

Is Disney really a big thing with metal fans???? Come on, Satan.