Bathory

[Midi]

The term "Black metal" is vague.It could be thrash,death,doom etc. but as long as there's satanic lyrics and themes it's labeled "black metal.Venom and Bathory are thrash,Immortal and Mayhem are more doom, and Dimmu borgir is prog metal but they all fall into the same black metal category. Conclusion: it isn't particularly a actual genre as much as it is a 'lyrical theme' same with "viking metal" for instance which Amon Amarth are considered but really they're just more of a death metal band.

I agree with you to some extent. Black metal has no characteristics which are solely reserved for black metal. However, when you combine the elements that do show up in black metal often, you get black metal.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Obviously, but I tell you what, I could probably beat her entire country in a drinking contest

[BlutAusNerd]

The term "Black metal" is vague.It could be thrash,death,doom etc. but as long as there's satanic lyrics and themes it's labeled "black metal.Venom and Bathory are thrash,Immortal and Mayhem are more doom, and Dimmu borgir is prog metal but they all fall into the same black metal category. Conclusion: it isn't particularly a actual genre as much as it is a 'lyrical theme' same with "viking metal" for instance which Amon Amarth are considered but really they're just more of a death metal band.

False. Venom and Bathory are black metal, as are Immortal and Mayhem, neither of which could be farther from doom metal. Dimmu Borgir was symphonic/melodic black metal long ago, but have been much more of a symphonic/melodic death metal band for some time. The lyrics have nothing to do with the sound that they're creating, which is why bands can be black metal and write about topics as diverse as nature, the occult, social issues, depression, war, paganism, etc... Black metal is in the sound of the music, the techniques that they use, and the atmosphere it creates, which is no different from viking metal, though people make that mistake with viking much more frequently. Though often rooted in black metal, viking metal is a different sound which creates an epic, triumphant atmosphere, and the note selection is far less sinister sounding in viking metal than in black metal or death metal. Some viking metal bands pull more from death metal, power metal, doom metal, or progressive metal, but this does not make them less viking metal, as the unifying factor is the epic, triumphant sound they create with those techniques.

[BrutalTeutonicThrasher666]

Everything in your post only justifies my comment even more.Venom,Immortal and Dimmu are all different types of metal.You even admitted it.It's not a particular genre it's more of a label. Amon Amarth, Falkenbach and Tyr are all labelled "viking metal" but Amarth is technically a death-metal band and Falkenbach is folk-metal.

[RelentlessOblivion]

The fact that black metal bands use techniques from other sub-genres does not prevent them from being black metal. Also it's worth noting that from a technical standpoint all musical genres are little more then labels used to describe a particular sound.

[BlutAusNerd]

Everything in your post only justifies my comment even more.Venom,Immortal and Dimmu are all different types of metal.You even admitted it.It's not a particular genre it's more of a label. Amon Amarth, Falkenbach and Tyr are all labelled "viking metal" but Amarth is technically a death-metal band and Falkenbach is folk-metal.

You obviously didn't read what I said. What I said was that Venom, Bathory, Mayhem, Immortal, and old Dimmu Borgir were all black metal, just different kinds. Trying to isolate it further than that is the same as saying that you have to sound just like Sabbath to be doom metal, or sound just like Suffocation to be death metal. It is a genre of music, which is why its a genre of music. I usually don't like to be redundant, but to say that a genre is not a genre is idiotic, and is similar to saying that there's no such thing as a sports car or a truck, just an automobile. Amon Amarth, Tyr, and Falkenbach are all viking metal, as the most obvious aesthetics are not the common factor, the feeling is. Low vocals don't make death metal any more than tremolo riffs make black metal, neither do fast riffs make grindcore or wanking riffs make progressive metal. You're focused too much on the superficial, any metal fan should know that superficial characteristics don't have shit to do with metal and are more associated with pop music.

[BrutalTeutonicThrasher666]

You obviously didn't read what I said. What I said was that Venom' date=' Bathory, Mayhem, Immortal, and old Dimmu Borgir were all black metal, just different kinds. Trying to isolate it further than that is the same as saying that you have to sound just like Sabbath to be doom metal, or sound just like Suffocation to be death metal. It is a genre of music, which is why its a genre of music. I usually don't like to be redundant, but to say that a genre is not a genre is idiotic, and is similar to saying that there's no such thing as a sports car or a truck, just an automobile. Amon Amarth, Tyr, and Falkenbach are all viking metal, as the most obvious aesthetics are not the common factor, the feeling is. Low vocals don't make death metal any more than tremolo riffs make black metal, neither do fast riffs make grindcore or wanking riffs make progressive metal. You're focused too much on the superficial, any metal fan should know that superficial characteristics don't have shit to do with metal and are more associated with pop music.[/quote'] That is the dumbest,most childish thing I've ever heard.Just because I don't agree with everything you say doesn't automatically make me an idiot.Based on your other comments, you obviously don't like me very much so you're trying to find a reason to fight with me to make me look like a dumbass. The point is, all those bands are very different styles of metal instrumentally.Some are mainly thrash,others are death,doom etc.The term itself "Black metal" wasn't even a 'genre',it's a song title.Do yourself a favor and some research in metal history before posting a bunch of nonsense while calling people idiots about something you know nothing about.Retarded shithead.

[BlutAusNerd]

That is the dumbest,most childish thing I've ever heard.Just because I don't agree with everything you say doesn't automatically make me an idiot.Based on your other comments, you obviously don't like me very much so you're trying to find a reason to fight with me to make me look like a dumbass. The point is, all those bands are very different styles of metal instrumentally.Some are mainly thrash,others are death,doom etc.The term itself "Black metal" wasn't even a 'genre',it's a song title.Do yourself a favor and some research in metal history before posting a bunch of nonsense while calling people idiots about something you know nothing about.Retarded shithead.

It's not about agreeing with me because it's not an opinion, black metal is a genre of metal. None of those bands are thrash metal, and none of them are even close to doom metal or progressive metal. Do you even know what these genres are? I would propose that you do what you erroneously advised me to do and do some research about what metal is and what these genres signify. As far as me "trying to make you look like an idiot", no, you seem to be doing a fine job without my help.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Newbie it's not a personal grudge against you, where you got that impression from I've no clue, we're merely pointing out that black metal is a genre. Black metal has been a genre for some 30 years boasting an impressive and unique lineage from Venom, Mercyful Fate and Hellhammer through Bathory, Mayhem and Darkthrone to more modern bands like 1349.

[BrutalTeutonicThrasher666]

It's not about agreeing with me because it's not an opinion' date=' black metal is a genre of metal. None of those bands are thrash metal, and none of them are even close to doom metal or progressive metal. Do you even know what these genres are? I would propose that you do what you erroneously advised me to do and do some research about what metal is and what these genres signify. As far as me "trying to make you look like an idiot", no, you seem to be doing a fine job without my help.[/quote'] Dimmu Borgir is a symphonic/progressive instrumentally, including the keyboard solos & stuff like that.Venom was actually one of the first thrash metal bands and some "black metal" bands are doom metal as well.I am a thrash,death,doom,power,folk,and yes BLACK metal guitarist and I am very educated in music theory unlike you. Who even cares what you think? who'd take someone seriously with nerd in their name and you really live up to your name because you really are a lame nerd who just sits in front of his computer all day typing nonsense that no one cares about, 400 slob with acne that eats off the keyboard while getting crumbs everywhere, jacks off to stock photos of Chuck Schuldiner and Quorthon and rants to piss off users on forums because you are just a pimple-face nerd who sits in front of his computer all damn day!! get a job,a hobby,go out and exercise so you can get the metalhead boyfriend you so desperately want and leave me the fuck alone you douche bag.Grow up and grow some balls while you're at it.

[RelentlessOblivion]

One ought not make assumptions lest they make an ass of themselves. Given that continuing this discussion with you is akin to repeatedly striking my head against a wall I shall refrain from commenting hereafter. Your repeated insistance that the overwhelming majority of metalheads are mistaken in believing black metal is a genre baffles me. I'm glad you have a clear definition of what constitutes a genre and what doesn't however in the real world this is not the case. A band can feature some elements of a genre (such as progressive or thrash metal) whilst sitting comfortably among their contemporaries in another genre.

[BrutalTeutonicThrasher666]

One ought not make assumptions lest they make an ass of themselves. Given that continuing this discussion with you is akin to repeatedly striking my head against a wall I shall refrain from commenting hereafter. Your repeated insistance that the overwhelming majority of metalheads are mistaken in believing black metal is a genre baffles me. I'm glad you have a clear definition of what constitutes a genre and what doesn't however in the real world this is not the case. A band can feature some elements of a genre (such as progressive or thrash metal) whilst sitting comfortably among their contemporaries in another genre.

There are also different 'waves' of black metal.The "1st wave" mainly consists of thrashy stuff such as pioneers Venom,Hellhammer and Bathory while the "2nd wave" has more death metal influences i.e. Immortal and Darkthrone. So how do you classify "black metal" as one concrete main genre?

[RelentlessOblivion]

Yes, genres can evolve, death metal has evolved from the sound pioneered by Possessed, Death and Macabre (among others) through the grittier sound of bands like Incantation and Asphyx, to the sound of bands like Arsis and Fallujah.

[BrutalTeutonicThrasher666]

Yes' date=' genres can evolve, death metal has evolved from the sound pioneered by Possessed, Death and Macabre (among others) through the grittier sound of bands like Incantation and Asphyx, to the sound of bands like Arsis and Fallujah.[/quote'] But earlier and later death bands from Death to Dying fetus - they still share the same characteristics and techniques with each other such as down-tuning,tremolo picking,atonal progressions, growling vocals etc. BlutAusNerd is making up ludicrous shit just because wants to be mean to me for who knows what reason.He simply just doesn't like me and wants to argue with me so he can be a conceited snob and degrade me simply because he doesn't like me.It's childish and pathetic!

[RelentlessOblivion]

Indeed they do all use similar techniques, they all still sound like death metal, similar to how you can identify characteristics in Venom, Celtic Frost and Bathory's music which are present in the sound of newer bands like 1349. These bands still sound like black metal. All genres progress drawing on different influences as they evolve.

[BrutalTeutonicThrasher666]

Indeed they do all use similar techniques, they all still sound like death metal, similar to how you can identify characteristics in Venom, Celtic Frost and Bathory's music which are present in the sound of newer bands like 1349. These bands still sound like black metal. All genres progress drawing on different influences as they evolve.

Of course Venom,Celtic frost and Bathory have similar characteristics because they belong to the thrash category. However most of the 2nd wave is almost an entirely different genre in itself.

[Midi]

Of course Venom,Celtic frost and Bathory have similar characteristics because they belong to the thrash category. However most of the 2nd wave is almost an entirely different genre in itself.

Musically they can be considered trash, I agree. They were however the forerunners of later black metal. Those bands introduced musical elements which would become inherent to black metal and because of that they are also considered black metal.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Hardly, there are still elements from the first wave you can hear in the sound. The second wave pushed boundaries further then the first. Croaked/shrieked vocals, sinister atmosphere, generally simplistic drumming, downtuned guitars, these are some of the common characteristics of black metal. I can understand your confusion regarding these early bands given the genre evolved parallel to thrash and death metal (I myself have been known to confuse the genre lines) but that doesn't mean black metal doesn't exist as a stand alone genre. Unfortunately for you this debate was well and truly dead by the nineties and the conclusion was thus: black metal is a genre.

[BlutAusNerd]

Dimmu Borgir is a symphonic/progressive instrumentally, including the keyboard solos & stuff like that.Venom was actually one of the first thrash metal bands and some "black metal" bands are doom metal as well.I am a thrash,death,doom,power,folk,and yes BLACK metal guitarist and I am very educated in music theory unlike you. Who even cares what you think? who'd take someone seriously with nerd in their name and you really live up to your name because you really are a lame nerd who just sits in front of his computer all day typing nonsense that no one cares about, 400 slob with acne that eats off the keyboard while getting crumbs everywhere, jacks off to stock photos of Chuck Schuldiner and Quorthon and rants to piss off users on forums because you are just a pimple-face nerd who sits in front of his computer all damn day!! get a job,a hobby,go out and exercise so you can get the metalhead boyfriend you so desperately want and leave me the fuck alone you douche bag.Grow up and grow some balls while you're at it.

Symphonic? Yes. Progressive? No. Venom was not one of the first thrash metal bands because they were the first black metal band, and while they had influenced thrash metal which was later to come, they are not thrash metal themselves, and neither are Hellhammer, Bathory, etc... Similar pacing means nothing, there are no thrash riffs, so they cannot be thrash metal. Should everything played at about that pace be considered thrash metal, including hardcore punk and upbeat jazz? Some black metal bands are doom metal as well, like Bethlehem, Unholy, Faustcoven, etc..., but Mayhem, Immortal, and most other well known black metal bands have absolutely nothing in common with doom metal. Seriously, figure out what doom metal is before you just throw it around as a random label. If you're supposedly educated in music theory, that makes these errors even more embarrassing. If you can't figure out what my screen name is referencing, it is even more clear just how little you know of black metal. As far as your assumptions regarding my appearance, again, do some research, as it seems that most of your asinine comments could be cleared up if you just took the time to figure out what you're talking about. It's amusing to me that you can take yourself seriously while you can tell me to grow up and then try to fling shit at me like an angry monkey in the same post.

[Midi]

Similar pacing means nothing' date=' there are no thrash riffs, so they cannot be thrash metal.[/quote'] What defines a trash riff?

[BlutAusNerd]

What defines a trash riff?

Thrash metal riffs tend to be syncopated and use a great deal of palm muting, often with a start/stop feeling, which is different from the more driving, solid 8th note feel of its closest cousin speed metal. Black metal riffs tend to use more chromatic note progressions, and the note selection is quite different from those found in thrash and speed metal. The best way to tell the difference would be to hear more obvious examples of them to tell apart, as they can occasionally be superficially similar, but those are the same kind of aesthetic similarities that lead people to say that black metal has to have poor production and death metal has to be as blasting and wanky as possible. EDIT: Here are some examples of what I'm talking about: Thrash: igOVR8bYdjU Speed: g97meJ4YS4o Black: w7AtgbonKEk ...and, since some people here that apparently have no idea what it sounds like, this is doom, which sounds nothing like black metal or any of the other above listed genres: lpVUMuLLqug

[GorboGorboze]

...any metal fan should know that superficial characteristics don't have shit to do with metal and are more associated with pop music.

BAN, is the strictly true? I am well outside of my wheelhouse here, so forgive my for fronting the audacity, but is it possible to publish a recording of Black Metal, as an example, using a legible typeset to write your name. Well wait... Venom, I can read that. OK pardon the interruption.

[BlutAusNerd]

BAN' date=' is the strictly true? I am well outside of my wheelhouse here, so forgive my for fronting the audacity, but is it possible to publish a recording of Black Metal, as an example, using a legible typeset to write your name. Well wait... Venom, I can read that. OK pardon the interruption.[/quote'] Though I like many bands that use them, the squiggly logos have gotten out of hand with black and death metal. I mean, they do look cool, but until you get used to reading them, it can be difficult to decipher them unless you have seen the logo before.

[forge]

While there can be similarities between genres, I do think Bathory is really black metal.

[GorboGorboze]

Nice, I like this Tormentor cut a lot. I had ought to go looking for some "Black Metal 101" thread if there is such a thing, I'm sure vast desolate waist-lands of horror await me. As for illegible logos, I think it is interesting. It is kind of anti-commercial is it not, I meant it sort of burns name recognition. They are cool looking, but part and parcel of a blackened affectation which I think is fun and artsy.