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Metallica - 72 Seasons


Dead1

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On 4/17/2023 at 8:44 PM, RelentlessOblivion said:

Late to the party but here are my thoughts:

 

1.new album is exactly what I expected, exactly mediocre

 

2. RtL is there best, there’s about six songs across the following two albums. I cannot even listen to any more.

3. The Unforgiven is a bad song, but I heard a cool Gregorian chant cover of it once

4. KIMB is Megadave’s best, they’ve got 15 songs afterwards worth hearing

5. I can’t imagine most Metal veterans buying any albums from the big four these days

 

 

1. New album is good by my mediocre standards.  Not brilliant but it's enjoyable.  I can listen to it through to the the end unlike any Metallica album since and including Reload (Death Magnetic's production put me off).

2. I would agree RtL is their best with MOP a close second

3. I like Unforgiven

4. "Blasphemy" says a MegaDave acolyte

5. I still buy Megadeth and Anthrax albums (though there are deliberate gaps in my collection eg Risk) and I've been listening to metal since 1991.  I am tempted to buy new Metallica album (a few more listens required).

 

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17 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

 

 

1. New album is good by my mediocre standards.  Not brilliant but it's enjoyable.  I can listen to it through to the the end unlike any Metallica album since and including Reload (Death Magnetic's production put me off).

2. I would agree RtL is their best with MOP a close second

3. I like Unforgiven

4. "Blasphemy" says a MegaDave acolyte

5. I still buy Megadeth and Anthrax albums (though there are deliberate gaps in my collection eg Risk) and I've been listening to metal since 1991.  I am tempted to buy new Metallica album (a few more listens required).

 

You're just not edgy enough to be a modern metalhead :)

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On 4/18/2023 at 2:47 AM, GoatmasterGeneral said:

 

Even our own Deadman proclaims Overkill is "creatively bankrupt" while praising 72 Shit Stains as "quite decent" which imho is a bizarre take for any metalhead with functional ears who's heard both of these records that came out last Friday. Because one of them was pretty good and a fairly enjoyable listen while the other was not. But this just goes to illustrate how even thrash metal is too extreme for mainstream success, which is why all three of the active remaining Big 4 thrash bands stopped making thrash albums many many years ago. Creatively bankrupt describes Metallica perfectly, and why the metal world is seemingly still in thrall to them after all these decades of abject suckage is beyond me.

Here's the difference IMO:

 

1. Overkill's last few albums have all sounded virtually the same.  The song writing isn't bad, it's just repetitive - we are up to Ironbound Pt 6. * Metallica for all their faults don't tend to replicate (though they stick to a range these days). 

*This is every single veteran band on Nuclear Blast - all are stuck in a time warp of whatever album achieved some modicum of success.

2. Overkill's production is also horrible - plastic cookie cutter Nuclear Blast production they use on everything from Blind Guardian to Dimmu Borgir and everything in between.   It stifles the music's aggression and enjoyability.  If a more old school production was used, I would probably enjoy the albums a lot more even if they are derivative.

The new Metallica album's production is the best production they've had since Load era and bizarrely better than virtually most new mainstream metal albums.

3. James still comes up with odd memorable riff, whereas Overkill really suffer for lack of Bobby Gustafson (and Robert Canavinno). 

4. For the first time in decades James' vocals are actually alright.  Bobby Blitz sounds more and more over the top  - though I do feel this is a result of production decisions ie sometimes they're too loud in the mix.

5. As such I have struggled with Overkill's output since the brilliant Horrorscope because the guitar.  Literally the only albums of theirs I have liked since Horrorscope are Ironbound and to lesser degree Killbox 13.  I love their 1980s albums and think between 1985 and 1991 Overkill can do no wrong.

And no Metallica aren't a thrash band - they've been plain old heavy metal for 33 years now.  Same with Megadeth and Anthrax.

 

When it comes to thrash, I'd rather the modern rethrash bands - Desecrator, Evile, Gama Bomb, Toxic Holocaust, Powertrip etc.   Only old thrash band I think still sounds good is Testament and even they're rather inconsistent at times. 

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7 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

1. New album is good by my mediocre standards.  Not brilliant but it's enjoyable.  I can listen to it through to the the end unlike any Metallica album since and including Reload (Death Magnetic's production put me off).

2. I would agree RtL is their best with MOP a close second

3. I like Unforgiven

4. "Blasphemy" says a MegaDave acolyte

5. I still buy Megadeth and Anthrax albums (though there are deliberate gaps in my collection eg Risk) and I've been listening to metal since 1991.  I am tempted to buy new Metallica album (a few more listens required).

Alright sharp-shooter, I know you tend to shy away from ranking things but make an exception and gimme your top 5 Megadiscs ranked in order, GO!  

I rarely listen to Megadick anymore these last two decades, and even then usually just a few tracks from different albums, almost never a whole entire MegaStaine album start to finish. But believe it or not there was a time when MegaStaine was in regular rotation at the Goatmaster household. Hated Youthanasia and I'm not familiar with anything that came after Cryptic Writings which was the last one I bought, but I'd rank my top 5 Megadiscs like this:

1. Peace Sells

2.Countdown

3. SFSGSW

4. Rust

5. KIMB

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23 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

1. There’s bass, but Jason is no Cliff so it’s not as interesting.

2. Slayer after SitA aren’t worth hearing imo

3. Because there’s always a third one, I’ve always felt RiB is the weakest of their classic albums

1. I think AJFA is brought down by production but also critically poor songwriting due to no Cliff and having used up all of Dave Mustaine's material.

2. Post SITA Slayer - there are some good moments but the quality is inconsistent.

3. What?  I'd say SITA is the weakest of their classic albums.  While there's some classic tracks it's pacing is off and it seems they were trying to mush SOH and RIB together. 

4 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Alright sharp-shooter, I know you tend to shy away from ranking things but make an exception and gimme your top 5 Megadiscs ranked in order, GO!  

I rarely listen to Megadick anymore these last two decades, and even then usually just a few tracks from different albums, almost never a whole entire MegaStaine album start to finish. But believe it or not there was a time when MegaStaine was in regular rotation at the Goatmaster household. Hated Youthanasia and I'm not familiar with anything that came after Cryptic Writings which was the last one I bought, but I'd rank my top 5 Megadiscs like this:

1. Peace Sells

2.Countdown

3. SFSGSW

4. Rust

5. KIMB

Rather close to yours:

1. SFSGSW

2. Peace Sells

3. Countdown

4. Youthanasia

5. Rust

 

KIMB is my number 6 followed by Endgame on 7.  

 

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There's a clip of Metallica on Howard Stern doing the rounds where Howard praises Lars for his speed drumming and Lars gives a bit of a speech and demo of that insane speed. No idea how recent it is, presumably new, but it's quite funny listening to Howard go on about the drumming technique like he's some kind of expert.

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1 minute ago, Dead1 said:

Here's the difference IMO:

1. Overkill's last few albums have all sounded virtually the same.  The song writing isn't bad, it's just repetitive - we are up to Ironbound Pt 6. * Metallica for all their faults don't tend to replicate (though they stick to a range these days). 

*This is every single veteran band on Nuclear Blast - all are stuck in a time warp of whatever album achieved some modicum of success.

2. Overkill's production is also horrible - plastic cookie cutter Nuclear Blast production they use on everything from Blind Guardian to Dimmu Borgir and everything in between.   It stifles the music's aggression and enjoyability.  If a more old school production was used, I would probably enjoy the albums a lot more even if they are derivative.

The new Metallica album's production is the best production they've had since Load era and bizarrely better than virtually most new mainstream metal albums.

3. James still comes up with odd memorable riff, whereas Overkill really suffer for lack of Bobby Gustafson (and Robert Canavinno. 

4. For the first time in decades James' vocals are actually alright.  Bobby Blitz sounds more and more over the top  - though I do feel this is a result of production decisions ie sometimes they're too loud in the mix.

5. As such I have struggled with Overkill's output since the brilliant Horrorscope because the guitar.  Literally the only albums of theirs I have liked since Horrorscope are Ironbound and to lesser degree Killbox 13.  I love their 1980s albums and think between 1985 and 1991 Overkill can do no wrong.

And no Metallica aren't a thrash band - they've been plain old heavy metal for 33 years now.  Same with Megadeth and Anthrax.

When it comes to thrash, I'd rather the modern rethrash bands - Evile, Gama Bomb, Toxic Holocaust, Powertrip.   Only old thrash band I think still sounds good is Testament and even they're rather inconsistent at times. 

I won't disagree with a good portion of that. Except for the part about the modern rethrash bands, I find every last one of them absolutely and completely insufferable. I really can't listen to any new thrash at all unless it's black/thrash or death/thrash. Or from Overkill!

I have a very strong connection with Overkill, probably stronger than with any other metal band. They were a local band for us and we discovered them playing in the NYC clubs before the first EP had even come out in '85, so when we saw their records in the stores we were like "Hey that's our band!" They were unquestionably our clear favorite thrash band back in the late 80's and 90's by a wide margin and over the years I feel like I've gotten to know Bobby and DD personally. They're blue collar NY guys like me. So maybe I have a small blind spot when it comes to them, because even a new Overkill album can seem like an old friend by the 2nd or 3rd spin. Agree 100% about the modern plastic production though, which is why I largely avoid almost all major label releases. In Overkill's case though I suck it up and buy them because it's them. Sometimes you just have to deal with it.

I'll also agree they've gotten a bit repetitive and formulaic since 2010, but I don't listen to the newer post 2010 albums anywhere near as much as I do the older ones. And even then it's mostly just Electric Age and Wings of War, I don't particularly care for the other three, GW, WDA or Ironbound, I wouldn't put them in the top half of their catalog so they don't get many spins. Well I did like 3 songs from Ironbound (the title track, Green & Black and SRC) but 3 songs is just not enough to carry an album. To me the reason those two albums (EA & WoW) stand out from the rest is because I thought most of the riffs were quite good and the songs were memorable. Too early to tell where the new one fits in. No, not every Overkill riff is a winner, but personally I think they still come up with much better riffs than new millennium version of Metallica could even dream about writing, (thrash metal or heavy metal, it's really all about the riffs for me) it's not even a contest but that's mostly a mattter of preference and as you've pointed out they are operating in two completely different sub-genres these days so any comparisons are basically apples and oranges. 

 

Here's my Overkill ranking. The only album of theirs I find completely unlistenable is Immortalis. I would say From the Underground and Below pretty much blows as well, but at least that one has 2 good songs on it. RelxIV and Killing Kind don't get very many spinds either, nor do the previously mentioned Ironbound, Grinding Wheel and WDA but I wouldn't say they all totally suck, just that there are too many other Kill albums I like a lot better.

1. Taking Over

2. Horrorscope

3. Killbox 13

4. Bloodletting

5. Wings of War

6. Feel the Fire

7. Years of Decay

8. I Hear Black

9. Under the Influence

10. The Electric Age

11. Necroshine

12. WFO

13. Scorched (penciling this one in at #13 for now because I think I like a bunch of the songs. But this could change)

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37 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

 

I have a very strong connection with Overkill, probably stronger than with any other metal band. They were a local band for us and we discovered them playing in the NYC clubs before the first EP had even come out in '85, so when we saw their records in the stores we were like "Hey that's our band!" They were unquestionably our clear favorite thrash band back in the late 80's and 90's by a wide margin and over the years I feel like I've gotten to know Bobby and DD personally. They're blue collar NY guys like me. So maybe I have a small blind spot when it comes to them, because even a new Overkill album can seem like an old friend by the 2nd or 3rd spin. Agree 100% about the modern plastic production though, which is why I largely avoid almost all major label releases. In Overkill's case though I suck it up and buy them because it's them. Sometimes you just have to deal with it.

 

 

That's me with Iron Maiden and Megadeth - sure I know they're no longer at the top of their game but I still fanboy on both bands.  (TBH the Overkill fans probably get a better deal as Overkill doesn't really do atrocious ala Risk or Virtual XI, only mediocre).

 

You're also right about Metallica and Overkill operating in different genres.  I'd say a more proper comparison would be Overkill with Sodom, Destruction, Kreator, Death Angel, Testament and Exodus in which case Overkill are IMO doing a better job than any of those bands save Testament.  I'd say Overkill are more consistent than Testament but when Testament hits, they hit homeruns.

 

For me Overkill is:

 

1. Years of Decay

2. Horrorscope

3. Taking Over

4. Under The Influence

5. Ironbound

6. Feel The Fire

7. Killbox 13

8. Necroshine

Then I glaze over and it all blurs and some I can't even remember few of them.

The one album of their's I absolutely hate is W.F.O. cause of the production. I Hear Black is also pretty piss weak.

As for Scorched, only had a partial listen (which I am fixing up now).

 

 

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55 minutes ago, AlSymerz said:

There's a clip of Metallica on Howard Stern doing the rounds where Howard praises Lars for his speed drumming and Lars gives a bit of a speech and demo of that insane speed. No idea how recent it is, presumably new, but it's quite funny listening to Howard go on about the drumming technique like he's some kind of expert.

Must have been all that work he did with Richard Christy (Death, Control Denied, Iced Earth).

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18 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

That's me with Iron Maiden and Megadeth - sure I know they're no longer at the top of their game but I still fanboy on both bands.  (TBH the Overkill fans probably get a better deal as Overkill doesn't really do atrocious ala Risk or Virtual XI, only mediocre).

You're also right about Metallica and Overkill operating in different genres.  I'd say a more proper comparison would be Overkill with Sodom, Destruction, Kreator, Death Angel, Testament and Exodus in which case Overkill are IMO doing a better job than any of those bands save Testament.  I'd say Overkill are more consistent than Testament but when Testament hits, they hit homeruns.

 

For me Overkill is:

 

1. Years of Decay

2. Horrorscope

3. Taking Over

4. Under The Influence

5. Ironbound

6. Feel the Fire

7. Killbox 13

8. Necroshine

Then I glaze over and it all blurs and some I can't even remember few of them.

The one album of their's I absolutely hate is W.F.O. cause of the production. I Hear Black is also pretty piss weak.

As for Scorched, only had a partial listen (which I am fixing up now).

Yeah, with better production it's quite possible that both Feel the Fire and WFO would rank a few spots higher on my list. Material was solid but they're both somewhat marred by their botched production jobs.

I could almost live with your Overkill ranking, I'd just have to substitute Bloodletting for Ironbound. My favorite track Death Comes Out to Play is on that one, along with several other essential Kill tracks like Let it Burn, Thunderhead and the monster called Left Hand Man which is arguably the heaviest song they ever wrote.

And I Hear Black would have to go on too. I've been reading for years how IHB is some kind of crime against thrash because they had a few slower songs on there that weren't strictly thrashers (or something like that) but I really don't care if they're thrash or groove or whatever you might want to call it, it's still quite obviously in the realm of heavy metal and I fucking love that album, there are quite a few stone cold killers on that one. The only skipper for me on IHB is Feed Your Head. I think it's the forgotten gem of the Overkill catalog in much the same way that many people seem to overlook SFSGSW.

I've always liked Testament from the very beginning, even though they're another band whose debut was marred by horrible production. But I lost track of them somewhere in the 90's. At some point I did hear The Gathering which in my mind at the time was something of a comeback album from them (which hasn't really aged very well for me tbh) since at the time I hadn't ever heard Low or Demonic. Formation was weak and derivative and then after that I just stopped following their new stuff as I was heavily into black and death metal by then. I'm sure I checked out Dark Roots once or twice on Youtube at some point but I just wasn't feeling it at all. If I really feel like I'm in the mood for some Testie I'll go for one of the first 5 up to The Ritual.

Did see them live twice after that in 2013 and 2016 and they killed both times. Probably liked those recent shows better than the time I saw them in 1991. Personally I really wouldn't even put Testie in the same league with Overkill, but that's partly just me being a New Yorker who prefers the harder punkier edge the east coast bands brought to the table over the more laid back hippie California approach to thrash. Ironically Testament's 2013 date was supposed to have Overkill playing as well (which is the only reason I bought tickets in the first place!) but Bobby was sick and the Doc told him not to sing that night so they didn't take the stage except to briefly apologize for not being able to play.

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It's funny people think Overkill sold out on WFO and IHB for having some slower songs but they always did do mid tempo and slower tracks whilst  couple of tracks on Years of Decay are basically doom metal slow.

 

With regards to genre (thrash v groove-thrash) I think a lot of older thrash metal bands now are groove-thrash.  Pantera chunkiness seems to have been a revolutionary step for many thrash bands from the 1980s.  Some like Onslaught seem closer to groove than buzzsaw thrash.   Even most modern Anthrax is closer to groove metal.

 

Exceptions are Megadeth who stayed more conventional heavy metal and Metallica who as we all know went everywhere before coming back to a more conventional heavy metal vibe.   Oh and then there's Kreator who went down the path of gutless modern day melodic death metal ala Arch Enemy and Sodom who remembered they were a blackened thrash metal band back in the day.  

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10 hours ago, Dead1 said:

It's funny people think Overkill sold out on WFO and IHB for having some slower songs but they always did do mid tempo and slower tracks whilst  couple of tracks on Years of Decay are basically doom metal slow.

 

With regards to genre (thrash v groove-thrash) I think a lot of older thrash metal bands now are groove-thrash.  Pantera chunkiness seems to have been a revolutionary step for many thrash bands from the 1980s.  Some like Onslaught seem closer to groove than buzzsaw thrash.   Even most modern Anthrax is closer to groove metal.

 

Exceptions are Megadeth who stayed more conventional heavy metal and Metallica who as we all know went everywhere before coming back to a more conventional heavy metal vibe.   Oh and then there's Kreator who went down the path of gutless modern day melodic death metal ala Arch Enemy and Sodom who remembered they were a blackened thrash metal band back in the day.  

I've never made a distinction between thrash and groove thrash. I don't believe thrash metal needs to maintain a certain bpm at all times to be considered legit thrash or that bands should never let a song go on that falls below that threshold. I love when a thrash band grooves. I think it's a good thing when a band mixes up the tempos of the songs on its albums. I love when there's some fast tracks and some midpaced tracks and one or two slow songs like Skullkrusher or Who Tends the Fire mixed in with the uptempo stuff.

But I'm not a real doom guy so I wouldn't want an album that slow for the entire 40 or 50 minutes. Don't know why people think doom has to be so painfully slow all the time, I prefer when the doomsters can mix in some midpaced and faster stuff, because I don't want a whole album of 80 bpm. So whatever genre you're working in just mix up the tempos people.

I mean look at Sabbath, the original doom metal band. They didn't just write all slow dirges. They had heaps of midpaced and faster songs on their albums. And they were the impetus behind the creation of thrash metal. I happen to be the same age as most of these big name 80's thrash band dudes, within 2 or 3 years either way older or younger (Blitz seems to be the oldest born May 1959, Megastaine, Araya and DD Verni were all born 1961 like me, Kirk, Charlie Benante, Chuck Billy '62, Hetfield, Lars, Scott Ian '63, Hanneman, Kerry King, Eric Peterson, Gary Holt '64) and we all grew up on Sabbath. They were THE band we all worshipped up until 1980. There'd be no 80's thrash metal as we know it without Sabbath. Nwobhm was important to the creation of thrash too but that whole British heavy metal movement was also based mostly on Sabbath. Sabbath + punk rock. 

But anyway, I think Overkill gets the importance of the tempo thing though, because even though they've ratcheted up the tempos noticeably across the board since Ironbound, after they saw the fan reaction and realized more fast songs are what the punters really want, they still throw on a slower one or two each album for the sake of variety and keeping things interesting.

I can't speak to what other 80's legacy thrash bands have been doing in more recent years because I don't really listen to any of their newer albums. Besides Overkill the only band I can remember checking out their more recent releases and actually really genuinely liking their newer stuff was Sodom. Most other old man thrash bands' new albums will get 20 seconds of my time (if I even bother) and then when it invariably sucks I just put something else on. I haven't liked a single thing at all Kreator has done since PtK, gave up checking their crap out years ago.

As far as your boy MegaDave is concerned, I think he's a good songwriter (or at one time he was) but I really think I would like a lot of those songs a lot better and I might go back to some of those old albums more often if another band with a different vocalist had performed them. For instance I like 4 Horsemen 1,000 times more than Mechanix. I just don't like Dave (aside from his gorgeous locks) or his singing voice or his choice of shredders to work with. When I hear some of those old Megasolos jam packed with all those superfluous notes I just groan and roll my eyes. That's not what I'm looking for. A little shredding goes a long way.

That's why I always liked Kirk on RtL & MoP, and Paradise Lost's Greg Mackintosh on Shades & Icon so much because those guys solo just the way I like for traditional metal. Or Jeff Loomis from Nevermore. The late Mr. Dane had a super high pitched voice so I don't go back to those old Nevermore albums very often anymore, but Loomis is a marvelous guitar player, always really liked his style. Yeah they're not thrash metal but their style was difficult to classify. I'm not sure what sub-genre I'd put them in, on my MusicBee I just have their albums tagged as "metal" without any other descriptors or modifiers.

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Yeah I tend not to watch them. I read some reviews but even then I take everything with a grain of salt. Maybe that has to do with reading too many reviews on Fleabay and Amazon and not being able to take them seriously, maybe it's just because my own thoughts are what matters to me. I don't really know.

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7 hours ago, Dead1 said:

Actually watched* last minute and he sledged it.  😁

*I hate all these shitty videos.  Give me a written article any day.

Uncharacteristically, I had a few moments and watched that review vid too. And, yes, I also prefer a few written paragraphs than an 8 minute tirade. It was as bloated as a Metallica song.

Without ever needing to hear the album, the review confirms what I knew would be the case: overly long and aimless, but props to James for his vocal performance (which I noticed from the one music video I managed to sit all the way through). I thought he sounded great.

So sad that I truly believe they have the capability to write a scorcher album of thrashtastic bangers, if they just trusted in a producer that would make tough decisions they are incapable of making themselves.

Ok. I WILL DO IT.

It will start with painting 47:25 in huge characters on the wall of the recording studio, and tattooing on Lars' forehead so James has to see it every day for the rest of his life.

This is the length of Ride the Lightning. Which is already a few minutes too long, but I can live with it.

 

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On 4/19/2023 at 4:42 PM, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Or Jeff Loomis from Nevermore. The late Mr. Dane had a super high pitched voice so I don't go back to those old Nevermore albums very often anymore, but Loomis is a marvelous guitar player, always really liked his style. Yeah they're not thrash metal but their style was difficult to classify. I'm not sure what sub-genre I'd put them in, on my MusicBee I just have their albums tagged as "metal" without any other descriptors or modifiers.

Nevermore, I always classified it as a Heavy/Thrash band.

The Thrash energy on some of the tracks is well felt, as are the fast tempos on some tracks and the use of palm mute riffs which I feel are different from those played by classic Heavy Metal bands.

It's true that Warrel Dane's vocals were not Thrashy but I always found Thrash in Nevermore, no matter what album.

A band whose disappearance I regret. What does Jeff Loomis do in Arch Enemy ? Seriously?

Sorry for the irrelevance!

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    • Full length number 19 from overkill certainly makes a splash in the energy stakes, I mean there's some modern thrash bands that are a good two decades younger than Overkill who can only hope to achieve the levels of spunk that New Jersey's finest produce here.  That in itself is an achievement, for a band of Overkill's stature and reputation to be able to still sound relevant four decades into their career is no mean feat.  Even in the albums weaker moments it never gets redundant and the energy levels remain high.  There's a real sense of a band in a state of some renewed vigour, helped in no small part by the addition of Jason Bittner on drums.  The former Flotsam & Jetsam skinsman is nothing short of superb throughout "The Wings of War" and seems to have squeezed a little extra out of the rest of his peers.

      The album kicks of with a great build to opening track "Last Man Standing" and for the first 4 tracks of the album the Overkill crew stomp, bash and groove their way to a solid level of consistency.  The lead work is of particular note and Blitz sounds as sneery and scathing as ever.  The album is well produced and mixed too with all parts of the thrash machine audible as the five piece hammer away at your skull with the usual blend of chugging riffs and infectious anthems.  


      There are weak moments as mentioned but they are more a victim of how good the strong tracks are.  In it's own right "Distortion" is a solid enough - if not slightly varied a journey from the last offering - but it just doesn't stand up well against a "Bat Shit Crazy" or a "Head of a Pin".  As the album draws to a close you get the increasing impression that the last few tracks are rescued really by some great solos and stomping skin work which is a shame because trimming of a couple of tracks may have made this less obvious. 

      4/5
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