What the early black metallers get right: extreme metal should not be popular.

[Dead1]

I doubt underground bands will tour Australia just because Slipknot and Mainstream Friends sell a ton.

There was a lot more touring in early-mid 2000s than pre-COVID 2010s even though mainstream metal wasn't as popular.  I was literally in Melbourne every couple of months to see bands in early 2000s.  Now even when I had money pre-COVID, I couldn't find bands to go see because they were simply not touring Australia.  

I think international bands do tour less these days and when they do the preference is for northern hemisphere where they can play big festivals, travel costs are lower and they can pack more gigs in shorter periods of time.

I think a lot of the local Australian acts are essentially not willing to tour.  Indeed save Psycroptic who got into a ton of debt to tour, none of the other bands where I knew people in were really willing gig much let alone go interstate for tours.

Some of the hardrock guys were happy to play locally but again never wanted to tour nationally despite wanting to make it big.

[AlSymerz]

Of course they don't all specifically tour here because Slipknot had a good time but without bands like Slipknot touring the likelihood of any band touring becomes less.

Lets not forget that bands of all genres share labels, managers and A&R teams. Let's also not forget that managers, and labels talk to each other. Just because today's band is not extreme, doesn't mean there isn't a manager out there who is not looking at the viability of touring a band he/she managers that is extreme.

[Dead1]

18 minutes ago, navybsn said:

TBF, that's most of the metal tours/fests in the US. The concentration of guys from the NE where everyone has to hit if they tour the States and guys like me who have the disposable income to travel all over the country to cool fests like MDF (12+ hours unless flying at $400 or more) or Hell's Heroes (8 hours) probably distorts the representation of what is widely available here. 

Thing is Australia doesn't have anything even close to an MDF or Hell's Heroes let alone something like Brutal Assault in Czechia.

Most tours here for international acts are usually 2-3 concerts only (Sydney + Melbourne  + maybe another capital).

 

And as mentioned the locals just don't tour much and never have.

2 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

Of course they don't all specifically tour here because Slipknot had a good time but without bands like Slipknot touring the likelihood of any band touring becomes less.

Lets not forget that bands of all genres share labels, managers and A&R teams. Let's also not forget that managers, and labels talk to each other. Just because today's band is not extreme, doesn't mean there isn't a manager out there who is not looking at the viability of touring a band he/she managers that is extreme.

 

But there were always odd extreme bands touring here, even before the festivals.  

The popularity of Slipknot or metalcore didn't ramp up number of extreme/underground tours especially as the average Slipknot or metalcore fan either stays with Slipknot or metalcore or most likely "grows" out of it.

 

As mentioned none of it has a bearing on the local extreme scene which seems bound by its own inertia (which probably isn't just the bands but also the fact that Australian A&R etc is not interested in promoting such acts).  And the local scene should be the backbone of Aussie live metal scene, not international acts. 

 

 

[Rexorcist]

If you check RYM, there will be a bare-minimum of 1000 black metal studio albums every year. Kinda too much...

[Dead1]

18 minutes ago, Rexorcist said:

If you check RYM, there will be a bare-minimum of 1000 black metal studio albums every year. Kinda too much...

 

Same for any genre really.  You need a full time job and work massive overtime if you want to keep up to date with every release these days.

 

And the sad thing is most of its generic as fuck and thus completely superfluous.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

On 10/26/2022 at 7:47 PM, Dead1 said:

Most tours here for international acts are usually 2-3 concerts only (Sydney + Melbourne  + maybe another capital).

Jon-O's girlfriend Greta Thunberg would blow a gasket if she knew metal bands were wasting all that jet fuel to fly all the fuck the way down under there just for 2 or 3 gigs only to turn around and fuck off right back home. I really don't see how any bands could hope to make any money that way. But then being a Yank I don't consider it a real tour unless there's at least 15 or 20 dates anyway.

 

44 minutes ago, Rexorcist said:

If you check RYM, there will be a bare-minimum of 1000 black metal studio albums every year. Kinda too much...

That's why I only listen to a small handful of sub-genres. There's more than enough black and death and black/death and black/thrash and crust to keep me busy year round without having to go exploring other lesser sub-genres. You've gotta develop a vetting system though, a reliable way to weed out the majority of stuff you know you won't like, so you won't have to sift through all 1,000 black metal albums, maybe only 250 or something more manageable like that. 

[Rexorcist]

11 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

You've gotta develop a vetting system though, a reliable way to weed out the majority of stuff you know you won't like, so you won't have to sift through all 1,000 black metal albums, maybe only 250 or something more manageable like that. 

I agree.  I usually only go for the best or the worst albums of a genre, and maybe put together a top 20 for the year, if I'm that active in the genre.  And I'll usually stick with bands I've already heard unless the bands release something extremely notable on that year, then I check out more of their stuff regardless of the rating so that my log isn't riddled with one-time acts.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

9 minutes ago, Rexorcist said:

I agree.  I usually only go for the best or the worst albums of a genre, and maybe put together a top 20 for the year, if I'm that active in the genre.  And I'll usually stick with bands I've already heard unless the bands release something extremely notable on that year, then I check out more of their stuff regardless of the rating so that my log isn't riddled with one-time acts.

How could you know which albums you'll think are the best or worst in a given genre before you've even heard them? I tend to go the other way, I pay more attention to new bands and bands I've never heard before. Unless one of my favorite bands releases a new album of course. But I have almost no band loyalty at all. One shitty subpar album and I'm done with you, unless someone specifically tells me the new so-and-so album is really good then I might give a band another chance.

[Rexorcist]

55 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

How could you know which albums you'll think are the best or worst in a given genre before you've even heard them? I tend to go the other way, I pay more attention to new bands and bands I've never heard before. Unless one of my favorite bands releases a new album of course. But I have almost no band loyalty at all. One shitty subpar album and I'm done with you, unless someone specifically tells me the new so-and-so album is really good then I might give a band another chance.

Well when I say best and worst, I mean in context.  I check RYM for the ratings and check them out.  Of course there's no obligation to agree.  Example: The Satanist was RYM's top black metal album for a while, but my favorite of 2014 is Roads to the North.  And RYM worships Burzum in that context and it gets on my fucking nerves.  My favorite bm band is easily Immortal, the first bm band I ever tried.

But this doesn't change the fact that I'm always trying to look for the best and the worst music, in regards to how I view it.  Basically, I start with what other people say about the best and worst, and then I check to see what I would say, and if I agreed.

So for future reference, if you see me say I'm checking for the best, just assume it's in internet context.  If you see me say I believe something is their best, it's always considering high quality as opposed to popularity.

[AlSymerz]

2 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Jon-O's girlfriend Greta Thunberg would blow a gasket if she knew metal bands were wasting all that jet fuel to fly all the fuck the way down under there just for 2 or 3 gigs only to turn around and fuck off right back home. I really don't see how any bands could hope to make any money that way. But then being a Yank I don't consider it a real tour unless there's at least 15 or 20 dates anyway.

Greta needs to learn where Australia, anything outside her own little fucking world, is before she could worry about that! But it would make a great headline "Greta Thornberg arrested in (wherever the fuck she lives) for protesting against metal bands wasting jet fuel and accelerating global warming by only play a few gigs in Australia".

 

I really don't think you should judge a tour by how many dates the band get, some of them would be more than happy with one night stands.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

15 hours ago, Rexorcist said:

Well when I say best and worst, I mean in context.  I check RYM for the ratings and check them out.  Of course there's no obligation to agree.  Example: The Satanist was RYM's top black metal album for a while, but my favorite of 2014 is Roads to the North.  And RYM worships Burzum in that context and it gets on my fucking nerves.  My favorite bm band is easily Immortal, the first bm band I ever tried.

But this doesn't change the fact that I'm always trying to look for the best and the worst music, in regards to how I view it.  Basically, I start with what other people say about the best and worst, and then I check to see what I would say, and if I agreed.

So for future reference, if you see me say I'm checking for the best, just assume it's in internet context.  If you see me say I believe something is their best, it's always considering high quality as opposed to popularity.

Right, that's lovely, but we were talking about how over 1,000 black metal albums get released each year and how that's too many for anyone to go through them all. I suggested we all need some way to filter them to get down to a lower more manageable number of new albums we want to check out. You said you only go for the best and worst. We weren't talking about 9 year old albums. New releases won't have gotten very many ratings too many places right off the bat (except for the big well known mainstream bands) so how do you determine what are the best and worst for new releases? Or in other words, how do you select which new releases you will listen to? Or don't you bother with new releases much until some time has passed and you've had a chance to see how the rest of the world rates them? Or do you seriously only listen to new releases from bands you're already familiar with? There's really no right or wrong way to go about this process. I know how I do it, I was just wondering how you do it.

 

And in case you weren't aware (which you clearly were not) Vargsang's In the Mist of Night was unequivocally the best black metal album of 2014 😎  Guess they must have missed that one somehow. 3.37 pphhfftt they must be out of their bloody minds.

 

Vargsang - In the Mist of Night

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

14 hours ago, AlSymerz said:

Greta needs to learn where Australia, anything outside her own little fucking world, is before she could worry about that! But it would make a great headline "Greta Thornberg arrested in (wherever the fuck she lives) for protesting against metal bands wasting jet fuel and accelerating global warming by only play a few gigs in Australia".

 

I really don't think you should judge a tour by how many dates the band get, some of them would be more than happy with one night stands.

Just saying one-offs and two-offs do not a "tour" make. Those would be "concerts" or "events." I might be willing to accept 8 or 10 dates as a "tour." Surely even lonely barren dry-as-a-bone Ozzyland must have 8 or 10 decent sized towns with a venue for live music?

[Thatguy]

45 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Surely even lonely barren dry-as-a-bone Ozzyland must have 8 or 10 decent sized towns with a venue for live music?

We built them, but still they don't come.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

52 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

We built them, but still they don't come.

Maybe you coud hire a logistics comapany to tow your arid island up a bit closer to the rest of the metal loving world? You might have to give up your "down under" branding, but maybe if youse weren't so god damned far away from the rest of us then more metal bands would be willing to make the trip. I know you Aussies & Kiwis must be used to it if you ever need to leave your islands to go anywhere for anything, but I can tell you the rest of us up here in the northern hemisphere really don't wanna have to sit in those ridiculously too small, cramped airline seats with no leg room for 15+ hours each way. Bands don't make enough money just playing two gigs down there to justify shelling out beaucoup bucks for business class. It's really a wonder that you lot get any bands coming through there at all.

[AlSymerz]

Yeah it's not a case of not having the venues its a case of promoters pissing around and wanting too much for organising gigs. Sometimes it's scheduling too, but most of the time bands only play Melbourne and Sydney because promoters aren't willing to take a risk, and why would they take a risk on metal when they know they can sell out 100000 tickets 5 times over to some red headed smuck like Ed Sheeran. Promoters putting on shows like that only need a few pop tours a year to keep their million dollar lifestyles, a metal band playing smaller venues is too much work.

Size isn't important we've had plenty of OS bands play 6 out of 8 capital cities over the years, then head over the dutch to Kiwi land and play 2 or 3 more. The gigs might only be to a few thousand people but it still works for the right bands. There will always be more money playing places overseas that are closer together. Places where a band can leave a venue at 2am and be set up and ready to play 8pm the following night. For international acts that's never going to happen here. There's a full day travel between most of our capitals, two days between Adelaide and Perth and while the band might fly between gigs the gear and crew generally don't.

It's a hard sell to convince a band and management that they can travel across Europe or the States playing to several thousand a night for 2 weeks, or take 2 weeks semi-holiday and play only half a dozen gigs to half as many people. But it's harder to sell when the promoter says up front that he wants $1M to put the tour on.

 

[RelentlessOblivion]

certainly doesn’t help that the bigger Australian bands seldom put on shows here. Eg Mournful Congregation last played here in 2017 iirc.

[Thatguy]

2 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

certainly doesn’t help that the bigger Australian bands seldom put on shows here. Eg Mournful Congregation last played here in 2017 iirc.

 You're right. I saw them at Hymns to the Dead in Hobart that year and I think it was their only Australian show in 2017. It sucks.

[AlSymerz]

Well you're retired, you've made millions from doctoring, become a promoter and get the bands you want to see playing gigs here.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

28 minutes ago, AlSymerz said:

Well you're retired, you've made millions from doctoring, become a promoter and get the bands you want to see playing gigs here.

Oh no, his wife would never go for that. They're living on a fixed income now they've gotta watch their pennies. I know you guys don't even have pennies but you know what I mean. 

[AlSymerz]

Aaahh but this would be making money and if he's done his super right he'd be able to make as much as he wants without upsetting his fixed income. Sure the Caymen's account might take a bit of a hit in the first month or two but he'd replace that in a few months or a year.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

He was a fucking pimple popper, not a brain surgeon or a heart transplant specialist or one of Deadly's $2,500 a day head shrinkers. And he doesn't have any of the right contacts he'd need to pull off these big tours in his rolodex. Leave the old guy alone, he's happy out in the yard digging in his garden with his headphones on.

[markm]

Sounds like  good life to me.

[AlSymerz]

Average full time wage for a GP in this country is $253,000. With that kind of money you could buy the contacts you need to tour a band.

There is also something like 60% of retirees in Australia who are either looking to supplement their retirement income or just get back into the workforce because retirement bores them to tears.

I'm just giving the guy options rather than falling into a retirement slump and dying before his time.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

35 minutes ago, AlSymerz said:

Average full time wage for a GP in this country is $253,000.

Yeah but how much would that be in American dollars, $85k?

I don't know how much dermatologists make over here because when I Google it I get all kinds of different numbers, could be anywhere from $150k up to a million. Salary dot com say the median is $371k. But I don't think they actually clear as much as you'd think here because they have to pay a good $100k in malpractice insurance.

https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/dermatologist-salary

[AlSymerz]

I don't know what it is in America but it doesn't really matter because it's never going to compare dollar to dollar. Average Australia wages is about $100K, so in comparison to general workers in this country a full time GP averages 2.5x more.

Obviously that doesn't take into account that even a GP spends more time educating themselves and more than likely paying more for that education. It also doesn't take into account that average wage is a terrible way to figure out what people earn because something like 70% of Australian's earn less than the $100k average.

Specialist get paid more obviously and that's why it's hard to search for a specific wage, but if the 'average' Aussie has to accept they earn $100K per year despite what their pay packet says, a GP has to accept that they earn on average $253,000 a year.

My old farm partner doc used to doctor 6 days a week, (he co-owned 6 practises), but he still worked in a separate doctoring job after hours that he got paid $200 per hour to do. Given that he also owned/mortgaged 5 farms I imagine he was one of the GP's that ensured $253K average was something many GP's had to aspire too just like the average aussie worker aspiring to earn their $100K average.

 

For the record $253,000 AU is about $170,000 US but that may not what a comparable GP in the US can make given how much difference there between the medical systems in each country.