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What the early black metallers get right: extreme metal should not be popular.


Dead1

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Being out of vogue is an interesting though because I was only thinking the other day about how strong live music and heavier music has come back this year. I can't speak for around the world happenings but in Australia since venues started reopening after the pandemic our live music scene is exploding. We still have plenty of venues hiring single DJ's who play sprinkler music to crowds of drunken zombies and those numbers will always be higher, but we also have plenty of clubs and pubs paying bands to play anything from rock to metal several nights a week. It wont ever match the heights of the 80's, but even club numbers are down for DJ based shows compared to the 80's. However I realise this doesn't have much to do with whether or not metal should be popular

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I also read Heathen are touring. Nothing against Heathen but I can't imagine them being the biggest draw card for a headline act yet even they've been able to secure a small tour. Vio-lence and Sacred Reich have also rescheduled for March. These sort of bands even in the height of thrash of the late 80's and 90's, couldn't get enough support to tour here, but whatever has changed now has given their fans (from some states) the chance to see them live.

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I think this kind of thing has been going on in almost all types of music across the board since forever. A particular sound gets somewhat popular and then the next thing you know there are all kinds of imitators jumping on the bandwagon, both bands and fans. Until the trend runs its course and the fervor dies down and bands and fans start going for the next new thing. I don't know how terrible I really think this predictable phenomenon is, I'm thinking maybe it just seems kinda weird to us when it happens in our rather esoteric and anti-mainstream genre of extreme metal because I guess fans of the more extreme and less accessible metal sub-genres never thought we would have to deal with this kind of trendy bullshit. Even though it generally happens on a much smaller scale down here in the shadows.

I've always found it really interesting though how the first band(s) to pioneer a new style or a new hybrid or mash-up of pre-existing styles or maybe a new take on an old style that hasn't been in vogue for quite some time get lauded as forward thinking trend setters and even geniuses, while subsequent bands doing the same thing get ripped and discounted or even dismissed as shameless imitators even if they play that style as well or even better than the originators. I don't really get why that should be, but I seem to be literally the only one who thinks this way. If you're a good band who writes good riffs I couldn't care less if you're a pioneer or a follower.

One thing that does bother me though is when trendy new bands get mislabeled and ignorant people want to lump them in with a sub-genre that I happen to enjoy listening to, when the band clearly (to me) have nothing in common with and no business being part of that sub-genre. For example when Deafheaven's Sunbather blew up some years back and people started calling them black metal. Now believe it or not I think Deafheaven happens to be a really good/talented band. Not that they're remotely my thing, I'm not a fan, but I do think they're good. But whatever they are they're certainly not fucking black metal. No idea why this should bother me, but at the time of Sunbather it did. But either way in retrospect their existence hasn't affected my life or my listening in any way that I can think of, so I guess now I fall into the who gives a shit camp.

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Interestingly enough, Deafheaven seem to have completely lost all their momentum and fallen out of the limelight. Last I heard of them they had completely abandoned metal altogether and just went full shoegaze, and as a result, the whole blackgaze movement seems to have become passe. Or at least it's not nearly as prominent as it was in the mid 2010's.

Looking back now, Deafheaven really were a flash in the pan. They blew up then faded away. Them and the whole blackgaze thing didn't seem to have any real staying power. Interesting example of how when a musical movement's biggest act either breaks up or changes their sound it can kill the whole movement.

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14 hours ago, KillaKukumba said:

Being out of vogue is an interesting though because I was only thinking the other day about how strong live music and heavier music has come back this year. I can't speak for around the world happenings but in Australia since venues started reopening after the pandemic our live music scene is exploding. We still have plenty of venues hiring single DJ's who play sprinkler music to crowds of drunken zombies and those numbers will always be higher, but we also have plenty of clubs and pubs paying bands to play anything from rock to metal several nights a week. It wont ever match the heights of the 80's, but even club numbers are down for DJ based shows compared to the 80's. However I realise this doesn't have much to do with whether or not metal should be popular

I think of Australia and the U.S. having similar cultures but maybe Aus has a greater thirst for heavier rock music? I'm not saying heavy music doesn't exist. DC/Baltimore has a fairly active club circuit. What I'm saying in general, young people in HS/College don't listen to guitar oriented music. It's all pop and hip-hop from what I see in local high schools. In the aughts I used to see kids with a random Slipknot or Avenged Sevenfold tee shirt. Today, not so much. My daughter and her friends listen to what they call indie but anything she's ever played for me sounds like pop music to my ear. Ed Sheeran is the one artist I can actually remember. I wouldn't call his music indie. It's lite pop music. The indie/alternative rock I used to hate and now tolerate and listen to in short bursts would be stuff like Pixies, Sonic Youth, Dino Jr., Jesus and the Mary Chain, early Cult, The Stone Roses-and either had a folk or loud guitar oriented sound. Least that was what I like of that era. Not so much stuff like The Smiths. Or even bands like Radiohead  who moved into electronica were obviously a rock band. I also like some bands you could call experimental a la Swans, or left field avant-ambient Juiliana Barwick or chamber/experimental artists like Julie Holter and my daughter wouldn't listen to....no mass appeal there. 

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But it's always been like that Mark, metal is a niche genre. In a suburban LINY high school of 1,500 kids which I attended in the late 70's, you could count those of us who were into hard rock on your fingers, while the overwhelming majority of my classmates listened to pop and disco. (they didn't have rap music on the radio yet when I was in high school) There was also a smaller group of 60's hippie rock kids who listened to soft-cock shit like CSN, Floyd, the Doors, the Who, the Band and the Dead. So it broke down like 90% disco/pop, 9% 60's hippie rock and 1% hard rock Zeppelin, Sabbath, AC/DC. By 11th grade I got heavily into the Ramones and Sex Pistols as well, but I was literally the only one, not one of my hard rock friends got into punk with me, they all thought it sucked. 

The appeal of metal and heavy music has always been on a much smaller scale than mainstream popular music or even regular rock, which is itself a much smaller market than pop music. I recently heard someone say in an interview (can't remember for sure but think it might have been Dave Wyndorf) that all rock music in general amounts to only 15% of music industry sales. And then metal which is included within rock music's 15% is a very small subset of rock, maybe 10%, which makes it like 1.5% of the total music pie. That's why online forums have become so essential for metalheads because a lot of us can't find anyone in real life who we share our interest in heavy music with. Unless like FA or Jon-O we live in or near a large metropolitan area and are actively playing in metal bands. Live gigs are an important way to connect with like-minded metalheads too, but think about how many people typically show up to an extreme metal club gig. Even in huge metro areas like NY where there are 20 million people living within a 90 minute drive of the city (or metro Wash/Balt's 8 million or Boston's 5 million) but there will still usually only be a few hundred people in attendance at most.

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14 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

But it's always been like that Mark, metal is a niche genre. In a suburban LINY high school of 1,500 kids which I attended in the late 70's, you could count those of us who were into hard rock on your fingers, while the overwhelming majority of my classmates listened to pop and disco. (they didn't have rap music on the radio yet when I was in high school) There was also a smaller group of 60's hippie rock kids who listened to soft-cock shit like CSN, Floyd, the Doors, the Who, the Band and the Dead. So it broke down like 90% disco/pop, 9% 60's hippie rock and 1% hard rock Zeppelin, Sabbath, AC/DC. By 11th grade I got heavily into the Ramones and Sex Pistols as well, but I was literally the only one, not one of my hard rock friends got into punk with me, they all thought it sucked. 

Basically had the same proportions at my high school of 2-3,000 in NC in the mid 90s.

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I feel like there was a higher percentage of kids listening to heavy music during my high school years (2003 - 2008). This was of course the peak years of metalcore's popularity and nu-metal was still really big so it seems to me there was an uptick in interest in heavier music among the youth. It was not uncommon to see Avenged Sevenfold, Trivium and Slipknot t-shirts in the hallways at school.

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3 minutes ago, zackflag said:

I feel like there was a higher percentage of kids listening to heavy music during my high school years (2003 - 2008). This was of course the peak years of metalcore's popularity and nu-metal was still really big so it seems to me there was an uptick in interest in heavier music among the youth. It was not uncommon to see Avenged Sevenfold, Trivium and Slipknot t-shirts in the hallways at school.

It does seem like there were more commercial metal sub-genres being specifically aimed at teens in the late 90's and early 2000's. Metalcore, pop-punk and nu-metal were all enjoying their hey-days still then. We didn't have that kind of choice when I went to school, metal hadn't really been invented yet in the 70's, disco music was actually the hot new trendy thing back then in the suburbs and kids were into it. But it's a genre that has not endured, the disco craze only lasted a few years and then modern pop music evolved from it to take its place. 

I'm sure someone going to school just a few years later in the 80's would have seen different rock/metal sub-genres becoming popular. I'd have to think when bands like Priest and Maiden and Motley Crue were enjoying their hey-days in the early/mid 80's that for awhile a higher percentage of kids were into mainstream metal than back in my school days ('76 - '79) when we only had a handful of what I'd consider hard or heavy bands most of whom were already nearing the end of the line.

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7 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

It does seem like there were more commercial metal sub-genres being specifically aimed at teens in the late 90's and early 2000's. Metalcore, pop-punk and nu-metal were all enjoying their hey-days still then. We didn't have that kind of choice when I went to school, metal hadn't really been invented yet in the 70's, disco music was actually the hot new trendy thing back then in the suburbs and kids were into it. But it's a genre that has not endured, the disco craze only lasted a few years and then modern pop music evolved from it to take its place. 

I'm sure someone going to school just a few years later in the 80's would have seen different rock/metal sub-genres becoming popular. I'd have to think when bands like Priest and Maiden and Motley Crue were enjoying their hey-days in the early/mid 80's that for awhile a higher percentage of kids were into mainstream metal than back in my school days ('76 - '79) when we only had a handful of what I'd consider hard or heavy bands most of whom were already nearing the end of the line.

Yep that's me. My high school years were fall of September '79-June of -84. A lot of the theater kids I hung out with were into punk, Ziggy stardust era Bowie, and New Wave-thinking Rock Lobster era B52s, Blondie, The Rocky Horror Picture Show (how can anyone forget the travesty of Meatloaf), Devo, Lou Reed, Oliver's Army era Elvis Costello, the remnants of the hippie era were big in to Grateful Dead. 

On a google search, Bad Religion, Minor Threat, The Misfits,  Dead Kennedy's and Circle Jerks all were big in the 80's. Regarding your beloved Ramones, End of the Century came out in 80-had that album and have enjoyed them ever since. London Calling came out in '79. Alternative rock exploded in the 80's with bands like R.E.M., U2, Violent Femmes, The Replacements. 

As you alluded, Priest ruled; of course hair metal were quite a thing. We had metal sections in record stores. Quiet Riot, Ratt, Twisted Sister, Motley Crue, Poison, White Snake-all that shit was on the radio. I well remember tee shirts and backpacks with Def Leppard, and in particular Eddie/Maiden backpacks. 

Even pop rock albums like Foreigner's Double Vision that had a hard rock slant were pretty popular alongside ZZ Top's MTV exposure, . Of course there was pop and soft cock and all the rest, but I would say, that guitar based music was  very popular when I was in high school.

Then, when I was in college, in 85-90,we had Metallica's mega commercial breakthrough, AJFA in '88.I was there and saw them then right along more aggro alternative like Jane's Addiction. Nothing's Shocking has been a favorite of mine ever since Every kid I knew that had a guitar memorized every riff of Appetite for Destruction. Today, kids have no interest in the blues based guitar rawk of the 80's. 

Sonic Youth and Dinosaur JR and Pixies brought loud guitar to alternative music which didn't hurt usher in Grunge. How well I remember Man in the Box, Alive, Outshined and of course Smells like Teen Spirit-now we get into early 90's but still...... 

all of it was played on the radio. I know because I used to listen to DC101 and 98Rock.

It was the era of Pour Some Sugar on Me, No One Like You, Living on a Prayer, Welcome to the Jungle, Rock you Like a Hurricane, Money for Nothing, Don't Stop Believing (unfortunately) Panama and Jump, Hit Me With Your Best Shot, Dead or Alive, Sweet Child of Mine. A lot of the above is drivel, but it was commercial hard rock and  we had rock radio-AOR.

Natch, Michael Jackson, Prince, Madonna, and Whitney Houston had the lions share of attention, but yes I would say hard rock, alterative, punk and related genres were pretty popular between 79-90. I remember hearing lots of Springsteen, CCR and Tom Petty on the radio when I was in high school. Today, there really is no rock radio. It was a totally different time. 

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I don't think metal is a popular genre in Australia and certainly not amongst the youth.  Australia tends to follow American trends.  So unless metal makes a commercial/mainstream comeback in US, I doubt it will catch on in Australia.

Having  said that in terms of extreme metal I was more referring to developments in US and Europe which are key creative and commercial centres of gravity for metal.

 

I think the two areas contribute in different ways but the European contribution to commercialisation of extreme metal was more insidious:

 

1. America's generally home to the overtly mainstream metal that really has nothing to do with extreme metal (save Slipknot on a tangential level and what happened to thrash in early 1990s).  Even when DM was big in 1990s, the American music industry let it do its own thing.  Even today there seems to be a massive gulf between US commercial metal/hard rock (Metallica, Korn, Slipknot etc) and extreme scene.

The big US actual metal festivals ala Maryland Deathfest, Full Terror Assault and 70,000 Tons of Metal don't really feature any of the big US mainstream ala Korn or Slipknot.  

Thus bleed through from American commercial scene to extreme metal is limited.

 

2. Much of Europe's (excluding UK) mainstream scene actually has its origins in extreme metal eg In Flames, Soilwork, Cradle of Filth, Arch Enemy, Dimmu Borgir, Opeth even Ghost.  And these days German based Nuclear Blast is probably the biggest independent metal label.  The biggest metal festivals are European and they will mix ultra mainstream acts like Korn or Slipknot with extreme metal.  European extreme bands have been known to try out for ultra mainstream pop events like Eurovision (eg Keep Of Kalessin).  Extreme metal bands are featured at mainstream European music awards (not Grammy's metal award seldom features actual metal).

 

Noting** also Europe's produced a few acts who started of extreme metal and then completely sold out and became mainstream pop/rock - eg Tiamat,  Pyogenesis, Kovenant, The Gathering, Katatonia, Opeth, The Haunted (for a couple of albums before returning to extreme metal) etc.  Bands like Soilwork and In Flames stayed in metal but abandoned extreme metal in favour of popular numetal and melodic metalcore.  Amorphis and Paradise Lost also sold out at one stage (I actually remember one member of Paradise Lost stating in late 1990s that their goal was to shift away from metal market).

US death metal acts don't do this.  They have generally stayed true to their original death metal (no idea about American black metal).  

So Europe's extreme metal scene is actively promoting mainstream and commercialism of extreme metal.  The number of people who are clear tourists is huge and it has acted to cheapen the scene.

**Note I am not saying a musician shouldn't explore other genres.  But a band should represent some musical idea or concept.  Keeping the same name whilst trendhopping to make cash and stay relevant destroys that concept.  I don't regard going softer and poppier as "evolution" especially if it involves jumping on a new trend like In Flames did.  So if you want to completely  change your style, then by all means do it.  Just change the band name.   

 

 

Great irony is Europe is the birthplace of much of original anti-mainstream extreme metal - Celtic Frost, Bathory, Destruction, Sodom etc.

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The argument about how popular metal (as a whole) is, is entirely subjective. But if metal hadn't gained whatever popularity it has we wouldn't be seeing bands tour Australia. I see that as a good thing, but I also know metal wont ever get to the same saturation as hip hop or pop music, so what popularity it goes get it can handle without detriment.

Back in the 80's before Metallica toured it was considered too far and too expensive to come down here. A band had to take a minimum of a month off from touring or recording/writing, to come down here and at best play 4 or 5 shows to maybe 30,000 people, tiny figures compared to what they'd see in Europe or the US for the same amount of gigs and less traveling. We had a few bands between about 82 and 86 do small tours but report them to be unprofitable. That was at a time when local metal gigs were happening 6 nights a week in pubs across the country. The Melbourne, Sydney and to a lesser degree Brisbane scenes were hectic, yet promoters claimed there was not enough money for international tours.

Then in 89 Metallica broke the mould and showed promoters what the fans had been saying, that a metal band could make a tour profitable. Although not all the bands that followed filled the same venues Metallica did we started seeing more bands from all areas of metal touring. That followed on into the 00's with all sorts of bands coming down (just for AJ to rip them off at Soundwave). But many of those bands that took the SW risk, or took their own risk, realised that tours of Oz could be done profitably especially if they included NZ and tacked it on to the end of a world tour after Japan.

Now we have bands from all genres of metal touring, many touring year after year. We even have guys like Tom Warrior bringing his band down here for one show in Tasmania. We have shitty metal bands doing arena tours, we have bands like Overkill repeatedly coming back. We have bands like Mayhem coming back and even playing Hobart.

Whether or not metal popularity is a good thing worldwide, we need it to be popular here, not just for the local scene but in order to convince bands that it's worth touring here so fans new and old get to see the bands they want. And in this day and age where young people supposedly have a large amount of disposable income to feed these bands it's a perfect time for promoters to realise metal is popular and can be more popular if they are willing to throw their weight behind it.

 

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Mayhem and Tom Warrior come to Tassie because the guy that runs MONA (David Walsh) likes them and will pay exorbitant amounts for artists to play single gigs at his events.  Nothing to do with popularity of metal in Tassie (if you get 200-300 people at a gig you've hit the big time - even Napalm Death was a pretty empty gig.  

 

A big factor for metal bands touring here is actually not popularity but two other economic factors:

 

1. Australia is ridiculously expensive to travel around even on major routes like Sydney-Melbourne.  In fact Australia is expensive for everything - country is run as a gigantic rip off!  It really chews up profits for both big and small bands.

 

2. Aussie dollar - been plenty of times when major bands cancelled or simply didn't tour due to dollar being too weak.   This happened a lot in early 2000s when even likes of Iron Maiden didn't come to Australia because AUD was too weak.

They way it works is a band earns say AUD$100,000.  If AUD$1.00= USD$0.62 then the band has earned US$620,000.  AUD$.100= USD$0.70 then the band has earned US$700,000.  That $80,000 could be the band's entire profit or even send them into a loss situation.

Now given the way things work most of the bands expenses are in US$ - airfares and accommodation are prepaid in US$ and all wages and possibly equipment are in US$.  (Or EU€ or whatever currency is used in the band's country)

 

Popularity doesn't offset that as venue's have capacity limits and there's only so much you can charge for tickets.  

 

Given current trends with AUD is very much a downward trend ($0.62 USD or €0.64EU), then I am expecting far less tours to Australia until global economy improves (AUD value is tied with commodity exports).

 

---

 

And from a personal perspective, if extreme metal bands are going down the path of In Flames or Soilwork or  whatever to get big enough to tour Australia I'd rather not see them.  

 

 

 

1 hour ago, KillaKukumba said:

Whether or not metal popularity is a good thing worldwide, we need it to be popular here, not just for the local scene but in order to convince bands that it's worth touring here so fans new and old get to see the bands they want. And in this day and age where young people supposedly have a large amount of disposable income to feed these bands it's a perfect time for promoters to realise metal is popular and can be more popular if they are willing to throw their weight behind it.

 

Not sure in what world young people have a lot of disposable income.  Debt sure but disposable income is something for Baby Boomers and X-Genners.  Between 2008 and 2018 youth disposable income shrunk by 1.6% per annum  thanks to Baby Boomer/X Gen policies of wage suppression, property speculation and mass migration.

 

Also metal popularity in Australia usually means some sort of trendy American style bullshit like Sunk Loto (Nu Metal) or Parkway Drive and Amity Affliction (commercial melodic metalcore) and at best overpolished commercialised melodic stuff like Ne Obliviscaris.  It's not going to be stuff like King Parrot or Desecrator (RIP) or Nocturnal Graves.

 

Note in last big metal mainstream upswing in early 2000s, whilst death and thrash metal were making big comebacks in US and Europe, Australia only embraced the trendy melodic metalcore stuff.  

 

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10 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

Bottom line is that metal needs popularity in this country. It doesn't need the same level of popularity hip hop or dance music does, but without popularity metal in this country doesn't move underground, it gets ignored.

I agree it gets ignored - Aussies aren't culturally predisposed to metal. 

 

But do you really want to see the scene flooded with more Parkway Drives, I Killed The Prom Queens etc?  These bands represent some of the worst examples of modern mainstream appropriating extreme music elements (both metal and hardcore).

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I think what's being missed here is the incredibly exorbitant cost of shipping all a band's gear and stage show 10,000 miles across the ocean. Especially now after the global pandemic shipping costs have to be prohibitive. It's not just airfare and accomodation for the band members, their manager and road crew. And then the most important factor that prohibits bands from touring down under is there aren't enough decent sized cities in Australia to make a tour profitable. I've looked up bands' Australian tours that were literally only 4 or 5 gigs, or maybe 6 if they played Sydney twice. Not sure why bands wouldn't try to play smaller venues in any of the smaller markets in OZ once they've flown all the way down there, but for whatever reason they usually don't. Many bands don't even bother hitting Perth or Tassie or even Adelaide. Or neighboring Aotearoa for that matter which is a lot closer than Perth. But even there they really only have 3 decent sized cities to play in all of NZ. I'm sure bands would love to play everywhere they possibly could to reach fans around the world but you can't expect them to do it if it's a given they're going to lose tens of thousands of dollars, if not hundreds of thousands. It is supposed to be a business, a money making venture, and it's gotta be nearly impossible to make any money or even to break even on a 4 or 5 night tour 10,000 miles from home. Even a relatively small tour in the states will usually be at least 12 to 15 dates. Big name bands that don't have to worry about taking time off from their day jobs can tour the states for months on end and rake in the dough.

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8 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

I agree it gets ignored - Aussies aren't culturally predisposed to metal. 

 

But do you really want to see the scene flooded with more Parkway Drives, I Killed The Prom Queens etc?  These bands represent some of the worst examples of modern mainstream appropriating extreme music elements (both metal and hardcore).

For me we've already been flooded with too much of that shit. One of each of those bands is too much. But I can easily ignore them, they don't cross my radar often and I have absolutely no idea what they hell the sound like. I'm happy to cater for all kinds of metalheads even metalcoreheads. If they start forcing their music at me I might view it differently but even as popular as a band like Parkway Drive supposedly are it hasn't effected me.

5 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I think what's being missed here is the incredibly exorbitant cost of shipping all a band's gear and stage show 10,000 miles across the ocean. Especially now after the global pandemic shipping costs have to be prohibitive. It's not just airfare and accomodation for the band members, their manager and road crew. And then the most important factor that prohibits bands from touring down under is there aren't enough decent sized cities in Australia to make a tour profitable. I've looked up bands' Australian tours that were literally only 4 or 5 gigs, or maybe 6 if they played Sydney twice. Not sure why bands wouldn't try to play smaller venues in any of the smaller markets in OZ once they've flown all the way down there, but for whatever reason they usually don't. Many bands don't even bother hitting Perth or Tassie or even Adelaide. Or neighboring Aotearoa for that matter which is a lot closer than Perth. But even there they really only have 3 decent sized cities to play in all of NZ. I'm sure bands would love to play everywhere they possibly could to reach fans around the world but you can't expect them to do it if it's a given they're going to lose tens of thousands of dollars, if not hundreds of thousands. It is supposed to be a business, a money making venture, and it's gotta be nearly impossible to make any money or even to break even on a 4 or 5 night tour 10,000 miles from home. Even a relatively small tour in the states will usually be at least 12 to 15 dates. Big name bands that don't have to worry about taking time off from their day jobs can tour the states for months on end and rake in the dough.

Hiring gear is the go these days. Granted they still have to bring their own instruments etc but touring companies are the way to do it. They provide the staff, the trucks, the transport, lights, catering, hookers(?) etc. It means that an Australian show might not look or sound exactly like a Euro or US show but the fans still get to see it. It's still a huge effort to get a band from east to west, but more bands are beginning to realise it's possible. But they'll still never make the kind of money for the same days on Aus/NZ as they can make in the US or Europe.

 

 

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I'm sure that probably works for the bigger mainstream acts who can fill larger venues, but I doubt most of the lesser known bands I listen to who'd be limited to playing small clubs would be able to afford to rent all the gear and crew and transport neccessary for an Aussie tour. Unless maybe they had made friends with a fellow metal band from down under who'd be willing to help them out for a reasonable cost if they agreed to return the favor when the Aussies came to play up here. I don't even know if most of the European bands I listen to could even afford to tour here in the US (and also the US apparently makes the work visa thing needlessly difficult) much less all the way down there. If there were any way to swing it financially I'm sure they would want to.

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15 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

For me we've already been flooded with too much of that shit. One of each of those bands is too much. But I can easily ignore them, they don't cross my radar often and I have absolutely no idea what they hell the sound like. I'm happy to cater for all kinds of metalheads even metalcoreheads. If they start forcing their music at me I might view it differently but even as popular as a band like Parkway Drive supposedly are it hasn't effected me.

 

I ignore the Parkways as well.  My point was popularity won't result in death/thrash/black being popular.

When metal started becoming popular in 2000s, nearly all the punters at our local gigs were guys who were into extreme metal in the early 1990s.  Very few new bloods and a few of them were mainstream tourists who probably thought all extreme metal sounds like Trivium or As I Lay Dying.  Ironically the really loud tourists were also largely despised by most of actual metal fan base.

 

But those gigs had a great vibe.  The people who were there generally wanted to be there.    I'd rather a metal gig with 30 people who want to be there then a gig with 300 of whom 270 are there just because it's trendy.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I'm sure that probably works for the bigger mainstream acts who can fill larger venues, but I doubt most of the lesser known bands I listen to who'd be limited to playing small clubs would be able to afford to rent all the gear and crew and transport neccessary for an Aussie tour. Unless maybe they had made friends with a fellow metal band from down under who'd be willing to help them out for a reasonable cost if they agreed to return the favor when the Aussies came to play up here. I don't even know if most of the European bands I listen to could even afford to tour here in the US (and also the US apparently makes the work visa thing needlessly difficult) much less all the way down there. If there were any way to swing it financially I'm sure they would want to.

This does happen from time to time. Bands tour with each other overseas and then the overseas band comes down here as a special guest of the local. You're right it doesn't happen to all bands and there are still many of them that couldn't afford tours at all, just like there is many bands here who can't afford to tour overseas without label support. Ne Obliv-what-ever-the-fuck-they-call-themselves, tried a go fund me years ago for their second or third tour and it failed quiet dramatically.

5 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

 

I ignore the Parkways as well.  My point was popularity won't result in death/thrash/black being popular.

When metal started becoming popular in 2000s, nearly all the punters at our local gigs were guys who were into extreme metal in the early 1990s.  Very few new bloods and a few of them were mainstream tourists who probably thought all extreme metal sounds like Trivium or As I Lay Dying.  Ironically the really loud tourists were also largely despised by most of actual metal fan base.

 

But those gigs had a great vibe.  The people who were there generally wanted to be there.    I'd rather a metal gig with 30 people who want to be there then a gig with 300 of whom 270 are there just because it's trendy.

 

 

I was only a bystander in the music industry by 2000, and many of the mates who I once worked with were also getting out, but those who stayed in still today claim that there was plenty of new blood bypassing the shit like Trivium, especially in Melbourne and Sydney where they had the choice to move into anything from thrash to black metal. It was at smaller clubs and sometimes even at all ages venues but they were still lugging heavy bands around the traps on a regular basis.

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I know KK reckons metal getting popular means bands touring but the line up for the only "metal" festival in Australia right now (Knotfest) shows that metal being popular doesn't equate to extreme bands touring.

Closest to extreme metal on that line up is Amon Amarth and some of the metalcore acts like Knocked Loose who take some elements of thrash and death.

Now some of those overtly sugarised bands like Trivium or Parkway Drive appropriated aspects of extreme metal.  Slipknot themselves appropriate aspects of extreme metal.

So the tour you get is not Blood Incantation, Tomb Mold and Witch Vomit.  It's not even At The Gates and Gatecreeper.  It's mainstream crap masquerading as extreme metal.

 

It's exactly what Surge was talking about.  

 

 

knotfest-australia-2023-poster-slipknot-

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That's not what I said though is it? I said that metal becoming popular means that more bands get the chance to tour and the fact that not every gig announced is full of extreme metal bands doesn't make that statement less true.

I also didn't make any distinction between the types of gigs and who was touring. Bands like Heathen which I did specifically mention are playing their own gigs, not festival gigs.

Festival gigs have barely taken off again in this country since covid, and pre-covid they were struggling thanks to AJ screwing over bands like Megadeth, (and reported nearly 80 other bands). The fact that not every festival can be whatever definition of 'extreme' suits today's argument still doesn't negate the fact that the larger the popularity of these gigs are the more chance we have of seeing other like bands.

What should be taken note of is the promoter. We have more, smaller promoters willing to put their name and money on the line for gigs that aren't mainstream pop than we've had in years. For decades Australia relied so heavily on two big promoters, both lard arse money makers who refused to acknowledge metal of just about any kind and therefore support it. It wasn't until smaller promoters, often fans themselves, started throwing their money behind bands that we started seeing metal acts hit our shores. Obviously there was still risk in what they were doing, but they did their risk assessments and they all worked on the idea that every metal band they invited was popular enough to make them and the band money. As these same promoters, and others, settle into the scene the number of bands touring increases and we've seen that increase since the early 2000's when a new breed of promoters started coming through the ranks. We'll never have a touring schedule like Europe or the US, but if there is no visible signs of popularity then there is no hope at all these bands, and others will tour.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

I know KK reckons metal getting popular means bands touring but the line up for the only "metal" festival in Australia right now (Knotfest) shows that metal being popular doesn't equate to extreme bands touring.

Closest to extreme metal on that line up is Amon Amarth and some of the metalcore acts like Knocked Loose who take some elements of thrash and death.

Now some of those overtly sugarised bands like Trivium or Parkway Drive appropriated aspects of extreme metal.  Slipknot themselves appropriate aspects of extreme metal.

So the tour you get is not Blood Incantation, Tomb Mold and Witch Vomit.  It's not even At The Gates and Gatecreeper.  It's mainstream crap masquerading as extreme metal.

 

It's exactly what Surge was talking about.  

 

 

knotfest-australia-2023-poster-slipknot-

TBF, that's most of the metal tours/fests in the US. The concentration of guys from the NE where everyone has to hit if they tour the States and guys like me who have the disposable income to travel all over the country to cool fests like MDF (12+ hours unless flying at $400 or more) or Hell's Heroes (8 hours) probably distorts the representation of what is widely available here. We've had only 2 shows local here this year (Torche and Melvins). I'm traveling 3.5 hours one way tomorrow to see another (King Gizzard), and 4.5 next week for Mass Destruction Fest. Only other shows for the rest of the year are at least 4.5 hours away (WASP) save for COC here in a few weeks. More shows may come here or be from here than Aussieland, but the really good ones are generally located on the extreme ends of the country and not easily accessible for most.

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