Post... or sludge...

[Midi]

As I'm an avid fan of both well-made post metal and sludge metal, I was confronted with the fact a lot of bands were labelled with either post-metal on one site and sludge metal on another or both. Hence I was wondering: do these genres usually overlap, yes or no. If yes, why? If no, what is the factor that causes this confusion? What makes both genres to what it is and separates it from the other?

[deathstorm]

Well I guess. Sludge Whould be considered swamp metal it's has a Orleans style like eye hate God That's my take on it

[mindy6158]

wow, they are really getting ridiculous with all of these metal genres for real, I cant keep up anymore. "Sludge" metal? what the actual fuarrkk? Pretty soon they are just going to start putting random adjectives and or words in front of the word metal and call it a different metal genre for real. haha

[FatherAlabaster]

I think some bands (like Neurosis) combine them, but they're not the same thing. Sludge is more specific - usually pretty abrasive and groovy, and more simplistic in my experience. It's been around since the 90s if not before, I think Melvins were influential. I don't listen to a ton of it, but I like a bit of Crowbar (been years, though) and Iron Monkey, stuff that takes from doom. In general I'm not a big fan of the Southern rock influence, though. I think BAN listens to a decent amount of sludge if you want recommendations. I'm willing to bet "post-metal" gets applied to all kinds of stuff that people don't have a pre-existing box for in their heads, but it's best applied to music that uses the sweeping atmospheres and exploded song structures of post-rock. Isis is a great example. Maybe a band like Explosions In The Sky would count, though I don't think they're heavy enough. I also see it more narrowly used for specific subgenres, like post-black metal - later Altar Of Plagues, for one - and I remember hearing that Tool was "post-metal" and Pantera was "post-thrash" when I was a teenager, nothing to do with the way it's used now.

[BlutAusNerd]

Most people misunderstand what "post -" means. For instance, post black metal would mean using black metal techniques and aesthetics to craft something different from black metal. Neurosis kind of muddied the waters here, as they began as a hardcore punk band, and then became one of the first sludge metal bands when they incorporated doom elements into their sound. They would then become a post sludge band, using those same sludge techniques and sounds to craft something more introspective and atmospheric, with a different mood entirely. Bands like Isis and the newer generation of post sludge/metal bands continue this practice, while incorporating post rock into the mix. I do have a few sludge bands in my collection, but I'm newer to it than other forms of doom metal, so I don't have a ton of recommendations, but most of are already posted in the doom 101 thread. I love Neurosis and Isis, but I think Pelican and Jesu might be the only other post sludge/metal bands that I have in my collection, and I don't listen to them as much as I used to. I've never broken into post rock, so I can't add anything in that regard.

[FatherAlabaster]

Mogwai, Explosions In The Sky, This Will Destroy You, some of Isis' later material, honestly even newer Swans could all be called "post-rock". There's an influence from shoegaze in a lot of it, but I think it's the instrumentation, atmosphere and expansive structure that define it, based on the bands I've heard - big, wet guitars, slow melodies, more focus on melodic development than dynamic changes. Sludge isn't noted for its structural innovations. The couple of bands that I listen to have pretty basic song structure. I'd say the confusion comes from the fact that "post-" isn't specific at all. I suppose "post-metal" is now used specifically, to refer to the sound Isis developed from Oceanic onward, though I haven't heard many other bands that are particularly compelling in that vein. But I wouldn't be surprised if, within a few years, a different genre name supplanted "post-metal" to refer to bands with that kind of sound.

[deathstorm]

I know soilent green is sludge. They say obituary CHOULD be considered sludge. I know there flordian death metal phil anlsemo has two sludge bands. Down and superjoint ritual. Eye hate God. Crowbar. Coc. Are considered sludge as well

[Black Milk]

Neither of Phil's groups are quite sludge, Down is just southern metal IMO, while Superjoint is a more punk-influenced project in the same vain. I'm huge on sludge because it combines the ferocity of death metal and the spacey, soul-swallowing crushingness of doom. I have always said, though, that doom metal is the most contrived form of metal with all of its subgenres that hardly ever remain standalone. For instance, Bongripper is at its core a doom band, but their second album Hippie Killer is absolutely laced with atmospheric post-ish elements throughout. Then you've got bands like Electric Wizard whom will often tow the line between stoner doom and sludge, particularly in the middle of their career with albums like We Live and Let Us Prey. The discrepancy between sludge and crust is very hard to discern to me, as you can look at pure sludge bands like Bumsnogger and Pillcrusher and make the argument that the only thing that makes them not crust is the southern rock elements.

[deathstorm]

But black MIlk according to wiki it's got southern. Rock there is a subgenre. Call called stoner sludge. Sludge is from Nola. Look it up

[BlutAusNerd]

Neither of Phil's groups are quite sludge, Down is just southern metal IMO, while Superjoint is a more punk-influenced project in the same vain. I'm huge on sludge because it combines the ferocity of death metal and the spacey, soul-swallowing crushingness of doom. I have always said, though, that doom metal is the most contrived form of metal with all of its subgenres that hardly ever remain standalone. For instance, Bongripper is at its core a doom band, but their second album Hippie Killer is absolutely laced with atmospheric post-ish elements throughout. Then you've got bands like Electric Wizard whom will often tow the line between stoner doom and sludge, particularly in the middle of their career with albums like We Live and Let Us Prey. The discrepancy between sludge and crust is very hard to discern to me, as you can look at pure sludge bands like Bumsnogger and Pillcrusher and make the argument that the only thing that makes them not crust is the southern rock elements.

I'm not certain you're on the right track here, as doom/death would be a fusion of doom and death metal, sludge is a doom/hardcore fusion, which is what can bring it close to crust at times. Crust is still another animal altogether though, being much less rock and blues influenced and more apocalyptic sounding. The riffing styles are also different in each, which is really where the lines can be more easily drawn, as they can sometimes produce a somewhat similar sounding end result. Roots, direction, and atmosphere tend to be the best determining factors to follow, but I like bands from each of these genres, so these lines are somewhat arbitrary and are not meant to be exclusive.

[Phobophile]

If you want to be really glib and formulaic about it: Sludge = doom + some sort of hardcore + some some sort of psychedelic rock So bands like Acid Bath and Eyehategod, more "traditional" sludge bands combine Sabbathian elements with hardcore and Southern rock. Modern sludge (i.e. post-metal, a term which is kinda lame in my opinion) bands have doomy elements, often not with much Sabbath sound, post-hardcore, and post-rock (which is both psychedelic and innately doomy and often is the sole contributor to the band's doom aesthetic). Of course it's more nuanced than that and a lot of bands that you can consider to be "post-metal" don't sound all that sludgy, but like I said, I was being glib and formulaic about it.

[FatherAlabaster]

If you want to be really glib and formulaic about it: Sludge = doom + some sort of hardcore + some some sort of psychedelic rock So bands like Acid Bath and Eyehategod, more "traditional" sludge bands combine Sabbathian elements with hardcore and Southern rock. Modern sludge (i.e. post-metal, a term which is kinda lame in my opinion) bands have doomy elements, often not with much Sabbath sound, post-hardcore, and post-rock (which is both psychedelic and innately doomy and often is the sole contributor to the band's doom aesthetic). Of course it's more nuanced than that and a lot of bands that you can consider to be "post-metal" don't sound all that sludgy, but like I said, I was being glib and formulaic about it.

The only real issue that I have with this is that "post-metal" has been applied to music well outside these parameters since I started reading music magazines as a teenager. Maybe the current usage will stick, but it's pretty weak as a standalone descriptor, and - much like "progressive" - I'd bet that it will be applied to a whole new range of things at some point down the road.

[Phobophile]

Has the term been used much in the past couple years? It seemed it hit full force in metal and hard rock journalism in the second half of the 2000s but I haven't seen it as ubiquitous as it was pre-2010 (probably because I don't read too many magazines and shit).

[Rexorcist]

Apparently, Scott Kelly, ex-singer of Neurosis, came out and confessed that he had shown verbal and physical abuse towards his family for several years, and is now leaving the public eye to recover from his behavior.  Apparently, Neurosis fired him in 2019 for his abuse, but at the request of his wife they said nothing to keep the family from being the subject of metal gossip.

[JonoBlade]

22 minutes ago, Rexorcist said:

Apparently, Scott Kelly, ex-singer of Neurosis, came out and confessed that he had shown verbal and physical abuse towards his family for several years, and is now leaving the public eye to recover from his behavior.  Apparently, Neurosis fired him in 2019 for his abuse, but at the request of his wife they said nothing to keep the family from being the subject of metal gossip.

Apparently.

The band have really thrown him under the bus, but not without good reason. There was one thing in their statement that really resonated:

"Compared to the impact of Scott's actions on his family, the impact on our band pales in significance. Nevertheless, with the heartbreak and horror we also grieve for the loss of our life's work and a legacy that was sacred to us."

Neurosis have always been a proudly DIY and, dare one say, "ethical" band. So having a member that turns out to be a piece of shit must really sting, because it jeopardises everything they've been building for decades. 

It's ironic that I've just been buying up a few past albums on bandcamp. However, on reflection there is no reason to stop supporting the band as a whole.

We've had this discussion on this forum before - about separating art from artist - I am pretty sure I can do it fairly easily in this case. Particularly because, while I have listened to the band for years, I never knew which guy was singing which part! 

Geez, Mastodon must feel pretty bummed too. Scott guested on some (all?) of their albums I think. But not the latest one, so they must have known something was up too.

[Rexorcist]

If Kelly really wants to change, then I have no problem if supporting the rest of the band means giving him the money to pay for the help he willingly seeks.

[JonoBlade]

18 hours ago, Rexorcist said:

If Kelly really wants to change, then I have no problem if supporting the rest of the band means giving him the money to pay for the help he willingly seeks.

That is up to him and no one seems to care at this point. His statement was remorseful but the response from the band and others has been fairly categorical: "don't believe him as he has been manipulating everyone for a long time." 

From a business perspective I don't see how they can just cut him off. He was a contributor to all Neurosis's music for over 30 years so he'll still get some ongoing income and that is just the way it is unless they pay him out to assign his share of ownership in royalties and publishing. 

Mind you, most of Neurosis's income will be from touring and current activities, probably not much from sales of legacy music except when they do reissues. They may well have already "divorced" and settled with him on the business side if the split dates back to 2019.

[Rexorcist]

Good points.  Besides, I don't plan on actually buying most albums unless they're dirt cheap or I get rich in this economy.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

4 hours ago, JonoBlade said:

That is up to him and no one seems to care at this point. His statement was remorseful but the response from the band and others has been fairly categorical: "don't believe him as he has been manipulating everyone for a long time." 

From a business perspective I don't see how they can just cut him off. He was a contributor to all Neurosis's music for over 30 years so he'll still get some ongoing income and that is just the way it is unless they pay him out to assign his share of ownership in royalties and publishing. 

Mind you, most of Neurosis's income will be from touring and current activities, probably not much from sales of legacy music except when they do reissues. They may well have already "divorced" and settled with him on the business side if the split dates back to 2019.

I got the impression that the band's cutting ties with him was more a situation of where he basically ghosted them in 2019 and wouldn't return their calls for 3 years, and so knowing some of the story before it went public they finally said "fuck that guy" and just moved on with their lives. It seems obvious that they at least believe Mr Kelly's statement of contrition was most likely a ploy to manipulate his wife into taking pity on him and maybe staying. If the man has royalties or anything coming his way I'm sure that'll go into an escrow account or something until the lawyers can figure it all out.