Bathory

[The Batlord]

It has nothing to do with not sounding like some well known band from the scene you're bringing into question' date=' it has everything to do with how they're using the techniques that they're borrowing from that scene that sets them apart. Let's use Enslaved as an example, as especially early on they bore some similarities to black metal bands in their scene due to using tremolo picked riffs, blast beats, shrieked vocals, and Grieghallen production. However, if you listen to what's beneath those superficial traits, you'll hear completely different songwriting style, melody patterns, and chord progressions that all lead to the creation of an atmosphere and feeling that is far removed from black metal. You'll notice that viking metal is far less dark sounding and more triumphant sounding than bands from the genres they borrow from, and a rousing feeling tends to run through their songs. And I do have a relevant reason for saying that Children of Bodom are not melodic death metal: they have no death metal in their sound, melodic or otherwise.[/quote'] Lots of bands in sub-genres don't entirely conform to the stereotypes. You don't need to start creating even more sub-genres every time a band comes up with an odd time signature. I'm perfectly comfortable labeling Amon Amarth as Swedish death metal, or possibly melodic death metal. They may not quite fit completely into either category, but they certainly share more in common with those genres than they do anything else. I also still don't understand why most of these folkish Viking metal bands can't just be labeled as folk metal. How many different kinds of death metal are there, and they're still called death metal? If you must come up with a sub-sub-genre then be my guest, but I don't see the point in lifting a folk metal band out of a genre classification that is otherwise appropriate. If you want to argue for their sound as some obtuse offshoot of traditional metal then I can understand that, but the tempos and relatively simple, repetitive, heavy riffing sound like doom to me. Quorthon may not have lifted any Sabbath riffs, but I don't see that as being all that important. Nobody bats an eye at calling Ahab doom, and what the hell do they have to do with Candlemass?

[BlutAusNerd]

Lots of bands in sub-genres don't entirely conform to the stereotypes. You don't need to start creating even more sub-genres every time a band comes up with an odd time signature. I'm perfectly comfortable labeling Amon Amarth as Swedish death metal, or possibly melodic death metal. They may not quite fit completely into either category, but they certainly share more in common with those genres than they do anything else. I also still don't understand why most of these folkish Viking metal bands can't just be labeled as folk metal. How many different kinds of death metal are there, and they're still called death metal? If you must come up with a sub-sub-genre then be my guest, but I don't see the point in lifting a folk metal band out of a genre classification that is otherwise appropriate. If you want to argue for their sound as some obtuse offshoot of traditional metal then I can understand that, but the tempos and relatively simple, repetitive, heavy riffing sound like doom to me. Quorthon may not have lifted any Sabbath riffs, but I don't see that as being all that important. Nobody bats an eye at calling Ahab doom, and what the hell do they have to do with Candlemass?

I think you're missing the point. A genre is not about stereotypes, nor about superficial characteristics or techniques, it's about a sound that the artists share in common. The artists that belong to the viking metal genre may have some superficial differences, but you could say that about any genre, unless you feel like trying to tell me with a straight face that death metal bands like Devourment, At the Gates, Lykathea Aflame, Portal, Jungle Rot, Demilich, and Anata all sound the same. What they share in common is a focus, an atmosphere, a sound, etc..., as you certainly can't say that they all use blast beats, tremolo riffs, low vocals, breakdowns, etc... Techniques are just a way to get there, the sound is where you're going, and everyone gets there a different way, like how Samael doesn't get to black metal the same way that Burzum does, or Limbonic Art the same way that Revenge does. You could argue that viking metal could be more related to folk metal than other genres, as it does certainly draw on more themes, mood, and melodic sensibilities from folk music than from death or black metal. The distinction would be the folk metal is structured more like folk than metal, and uses metal as more of a tool than trying to conform specifically to it. It's basically metallized folk instead of the other way around, and uses far more folk instruments, emphasizing the usually upbeat/fun folk feeling that we know them for. Viking metal tends to be more serious and epic, the difference can be seen by comparing Finntroll to Moonsorrow, as both have the same main songwriter, but Finntroll is folk metal and Moonsorrow is viking. They have similar sounds, but the way they're used and the focus they have is totally different. Folk and viking often crossover as well, so grouping them together makes even more sense that way.

[The Batlord]

And I think you're missing my point. So-called Viking metal bands may or may not share anything musically or in common other than lyrics. But they generally do fall in line with other genres, and since they fall under so many different forms of metal (black metal, folk metal, melodic death metal, epic doom, etc) it makes little sense to declare a genre that's full of bands that may or may not have anything to do with one another aside from lyrics. I sense a circular argument, but fuck it. There's something oddly satisfying about futile genre disputes.

[BlutAusNerd]

And I think you're missing my point. So-called Viking metal bands may or may not share anything musically or in common other than lyrics. But they generally do fall in line with other genres, and since they fall under so many different forms of metal (black metal, folk metal, melodic death metal, epic doom, etc) it makes little sense to declare a genre that's full of bands that may or may not have anything to do with one another aside from lyrics. I sense a circular argument, but fuck it. There's something oddly satisfying about futile genre disputes.

That's the thing though, viking metal bands DON'T fall under those other genre tags. Some of the techniques found in them can be found in those genres too, but the point is that they're used in different ways. If death metal, black metal, grindcore, and other genres use blast beats, yet can be called separate genres, why can't viking metal be separate while sharing techniques with genres like these too? If techniques were confined to genres, modern black metal would not exist, it would be some kind of surf rock hybrid because it uses tremolo picking. Also, coming from different angles doesn't mean they can't still be unified under one banner. Look at early heavy metal, most 70's metal bands came from totally different backgrounds like krautrock (Scorpions), blues (Sabbath), blues rock (Purple), heavy psych (Uriah Heep), progressive rock (Rush), folk rock (Thin Lizzy), etc..., yet were all heavy metal. They had different backgrounds and different ways of getting where they were going, but they got there in their own way.

[The Batlord]

That's the thing though' date=' viking metal bands DON'T fall under those other genre tags. Some of the techniques found in them can be found in those genres too, but the point is that they're used in different ways.[/quote'] Enough to warrant their own genre? Those folk bands that you're talking about sound like they'd still be perfectly good under the umbrella of folk metal. If you want to make a sub-sub-genre of folk metal and call it Viking metal, then that's all well and good, but I still don't see how some of these bands are different enough that they require there own fully-fledged sub-genre. There's far more separating those genres from each other than blast beats. I'm no musician, but whatever techniques Viking metal bands use that aren't used by their fellow folk metal bands don't seem to amount to nearly the difference between bands such as Burzum and Death. And you're talking to the wrong person about genre divisions. Maybe not so much these days, but back in the eighties especially, I think the genre lines that have been drawn are often arbitrary. Death metal, thrash metal, grindcore, and black metal could be used to describe plenty of bands at the same time. Everyone calls Possessed a death metal band, but I think their chaotic, noisy sound is as much eighties black metal as it is black metal or death metal; early death metal bands like Death and Obituary were just as inspired by bands associated with black metal as they were thrash (e.g. Celtic Frost, Hellhammer, Venom, etc); and the number of bands that started out playing early black metal and ended up as thrash or death metal bands is off the charts (e.g. Sodom, Destruction, Sepultura, Sarcofago, etc). So yeah, I have little use for what I see as arbitrary sub-genres. You mean like how Bathory don't come from a doom metal background, yet still released Hammerheart?

[BlutAusNerd]

Enough to warrant their own genre? Those folk bands that you're talking about sound like they'd still be perfectly good under the umbrella of folk metal. If you want to make a sub-sub-genre of folk metal and call it Viking metal, then that's all well and good, but I still don't see how some of these bands are different enough that they require there own fully-fledged sub-genre. There's far more separating those genres from each other than blast beats. I'm no musician, but whatever techniques Viking metal bands use that aren't used by their fellow folk metal bands don't seem to amount to nearly the difference between bands such as Burzum and Death. And you're talking to the wrong person about genre divisions. Maybe not so much these days, but back in the eighties especially, I think the genre lines that have been drawn are often arbitrary. Death metal, thrash metal, grindcore, and black metal could be used to describe plenty of bands at the same time. Everyone calls Possessed a death metal band, but I think their chaotic, noisy sound is as much eighties black metal as it is black metal or death metal; early death metal bands like Death and Obituary were just as inspired by bands associated with black metal as they were thrash (e.g. Celtic Frost, Hellhammer, Venom, etc); and the number of bands that started out playing early black metal and ended up as thrash or death metal bands is off the charts (e.g. Sodom, Destruction, Sepultura, Sarcofago, etc). So yeah, I have little use for what I see as arbitrary sub-genres. You mean like how Bathory don't come from a doom metal background, yet still released Hammerheart?

Yes, enough to warrant their own genre. Can you honestly say that Korpiklaani and Hades should fall into the same category? And then by extension, should Hades fall into the same category as Mayhem? Each of those bands are doing totally different things, and even though Hades sounds like Burzum aesthetically, their music is basically directly Hammerheart inspired. Now, based on your other posts, you wouldn't call Hammerheart black metal, so you should be able to at least see what I'm talking about as far as a different direction/focus/songwriting style being indicative of a different genre, despite the fact that you have that genre wrong. Bathory is still not doom metal, no doom riffs, no doom atmosphere, no doom anything, so you can't use the same comparison. The bands I mentioned were coming from different beginnings and moving toward heavy metal, but Bathory never went in a doom metal direction. You're right, there is much more that separates black metal and death metal than blast beats, which is the point I'm making. They use the same techniques, but they're not the same because they use them in totally different ways for different purposes in different contexts. Viking metal can use these techniques as well, just as you're admitting that these other genres that use many of the same techniques are still plenty different, so is viking metal. I feel like I'm getting redundant here, but that really is all that there is to it. I don't believe that genre lines are arbitrarily drawn at all. Each of the genres you're mentioning have pretty specific sounds, but it wasn't until the Norwegians crammed their heads up their assessment that there had to be "purity" in black metal. There was a lot of influence and cross-pollination in a lot of different ways, black metal and death metal bands toured together, as did power metal bands and thrash metal bands. Possessed can still be death metal, despite that many black metal bands were influenced by them, just as many death metal bands were influenced by black metal (Death was originally called Mantas after Venom's guitar player), d-beat/hardcore, grindcore, thrash, etc... The same is still true today, but many of these genres have gone down quite the evolutionary trail that has caused larger spaces to exist between their sounds. You still have plenty of bands filling in the gaps, drawing influences from all over, doing things with these genres that haven't been done before, which will likely go on for the foreseeable future. I really enjoy tracing these sounds back to their roots, seeing where they came from and how creativity has taken them from where they were to where they are, music is pretty incredible that way.

[RelentlessOblivion]

It's the proverbial immovable object meeting the irresistable force. Hey at least Batlord isn't resulting to petty name calling.

[The Batlord]

It's the proverbial immovable object meeting the irresistable force. Hey at least Batlord isn't resulting to petty name calling.

The righteous need not the barbs of children when truth is on their side.

[BlutAusNerd]

The righteous need not the barbs of children when truth is on their side.

Which truth would that be? The truth which wavers in the face of the facts?

[Os Abysmi Vel Daath]

Bathory was pretty much a doom metal band.

Literally what?

[The Batlord]

Which truth would that be? The truth which wavers in the face of the facts?

The truth which stands as stone in the face of the unworthy.

[RelentlessOblivion]

So we've had "Viking metal isn't a genre it's a lyrical theme" - Batlord, "Black metal isn't a genre it's a lyrical theme" - BrutalTeutonicThrasher666, and my personal favourite "Dinosaurs aren't real it's a scam to line the pockets of big paleo" - random dude. Is it me or do we get a lot of people who don't believe things are things on this forum?

[The Batlord]

So we've had "Viking metal isn't a genre it's a lyrical theme" - Batlord' date=' "Black metal isn't a genre it's a lyrical theme" - BrutalTeutonicThrasher666, and my personal favourite "Dinosaurs aren't real it's a scam to line the pockets of big paleo" - random dude. Is it me or do we get a lot of people who don't believe things are things on this forum?[/quote'] Hey, out of all of those, at least mine is defensible.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Defensible perhaps, funny no, you'll forgive me for being a sheep and sticking with the flock who say Viking Metal is more then a simple theme. If it were that simple we'd have 'Political metal' 'Drunk Metal' 'Car metal' 'War metal' and so on.

[The Batlord]

Defensible perhaps' date=' funny no, you'll forgive me for being a sheep and sticking with the flock who say Viking Metal is more then a simple theme. If it were that simple we'd have 'Political metal' 'Drunk Metal' 'Car metal' 'War metal' and so on.[/quote'] War Metal *(aka Bestial Black Metal) - Music Genres - Rate Your Music

[RelentlessOblivion]

Why am I not surprised...

[Os Abysmi Vel Daath]

War Metal *(aka Bestial Black Metal) - Music Genres - Rate Your Music

Hahaha I'm friends with Matt from Witchclan on FB... That's such a contrived genre though. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BlutAusNerd]

War Metal *(aka Bestial Black Metal) - Music Genres - Rate Your Music

https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/viking+metal https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/bathory/hammerheart/ What was that thing you were saying about truth? [emoji4]

[The Batlord]

https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/viking+metal https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/bathory/hammerheart/ What was that thing you were saying about truth? [emoji4]

My entire point about war metal was that metalheads are ridiculous and will make a sub-genre out of anything (e.g. war metal, viking metal, battle metal, pirate metal, etc).

[BlutAusNerd]

My entire point about war metal was that metalheads are ridiculous and will make a sub-genre out of anything (e.g. war metal' date=' viking metal, battle metal, pirate metal, etc).[/quote'] War metal is also known as "bestial black metal", and as other tags like depressive black metal, atmospheric black metal, melodic black metal, etc... exist, I don't see why this should be any different. Those all represent different sides of black metal's vast sound, and they can be useful in giving and receiving recommendations. The other half of the tags that you posted were useless though and entirely based on lyrical themes, there is not a sound to set them apart like with actual genres and subgenres. Viking metal has a sound, pirate metal does not, that is the difference.

[The Batlord]

War metal is also known as "bestial black metal"' date=' and as other tags like depressive black metal, atmospheric black metal, melodic black metal, etc... exist, I don't see why this should be any different. Those all represent different sides of black metal's vast sound, and they can be useful in giving and receiving recommendations. The other half of the tags that you posted were useless though and entirely based on lyrical themes, there is not a sound to set them apart like with actual genres and subgenres. Viking metal has a sound, pirate metal does not, that is the difference.[/quote'] Honestly, I think war metal is a more valid sub-sub-genre than Viking metal, as war metal actually does have a specific sound. Not a very diverse sound, but I suppose that's the point of a sub-sub-genre. Besides pointing out a very few folk metal bands that kind of sound alike (which I'll honestly have to take your word on, as I'm not much of a folk metal guy), you really haven't shown that there is any unified Viking metal sound beyond vague assertions of a "triumphant" atmosphere, and minor musical differences that may or may not separate them from their other musical brethren. I mean, I get part of what you're saying. I often use a non-genre I've seen used once or thrice on the net called "epic metal" to describe a certain sound that includes bands such as Hammerheart-era Bathory, certain albums/songs by Manowar, Warlord (kind of), Atlantean Kodex, Falkenbach, Solstice, Doomsword, Primordial, Turisas (in a tongue-in-cheek way), Saxon's "Crusader", etc (If I particularly cared for Manilla Road or Cirith Ungol I might include them). There is a certain sound that many of these bands have: generally slower tempos, heavier and repetitive riffing, and "triumphant" atmospheres. I also exclude bands like Amon Amarth and Rhapsody, since they just don't really evoke the atmosphere I'm looking for. In many ways my conception of "epic metal", despite its not necessarily including Viking lyrics or folk elements, is almost a dead ringer for Viking metal. Yet I do not pretend that it is a sub-genre. Partly because very few people use the term--and most don't use it quite how I use it--partly because the similarities don't amount to a unified sound, and there really isn't a "scene" around the concept. I can't speak for folk metal in general, as I don't listen to it much, but I don't really see there being a Viking metal scene. War metal has bands dedicated to the sound, and from what I understand even a sort of base of operations somewhere in Canada that was built around Blasphemy (much like the Bay Area was a hub for thrash). I guess I should have brought that up earlier, but one criteria I think is often, but not always, important for a sub-genre is a particular scene, as it creates an atmosphere where those bands influence each other in a far greater way than bands from different areas: Florida for death metal, the Bay Area for thrash, Norway for 2nd wave black metal, etc. I imagine thrash metal would have evolved at least somewhat differently without the Bay Area being such a driving force. Perhaps New York, with its heavy NYHC influence (Nuclear Assault, SOD, Carnivore, and to a lesser extent, Anthrax) might have decreased the NWOBHM influence that Metallica really brought to San Francisco. Germany's thrash scene was certainly influenced by the black metal bands around northern and central Europe (Bathory, Hellhammer, Celtic Frost, and yes, RelentlessOblvion, even Mercyful Fate). Early Kreator, Sodom, and Destruction were very much early black metal, and probably/maybe/IDK influenced each other to play similarly as well--at least until the rise of Bay Area thrash, when those bands started to "fall in line". Who knows, if that scene had risen to prominence first, black metal and thrash might be kissing cousins to this day. My point is, most of these so-called Viking metal bands have neither a unified sound, nor a scene or movement to cling to. Amon Amarth and Unleashed are part of the Swedish death metal scene and Enslaved and Borknagar are part of the Norwegian black metal scene. It was these scenes that provided much of the influences that developed their sound--even if they didn't necessarily stick within those bounds--and not some non-existent sub-genre. So, yeah, still don't see how Viking metal is a legitimate genre.

[Os Abysmi Vel Daath]

War metal is also known as "bestial black metal"' date=' and as other tags like depressive black metal, atmospheric black metal, melodic black metal, etc... exist, I don't see why this should be any different. Those all represent different sides of black metal's vast sound, and they can be useful in giving and receiving recommendations. The other half of the tags that you posted were useless though and entirely based on lyrical themes, there is not a sound to set them apart like with actual genres and subgenres. Viking metal has a sound, pirate metal does not, that is the difference.[/quote'] Bestial Black Metal is literally Matt wanting to be a special snowflake. EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, and he's always been very courteous to me, but he's even admitted that there's no recognizable difference sonically between regular black metal and the bestial variety

[BlutAusNerd]

Wait, so you're saying that you're not familiar with this sound (you're taking me at my word that these bands sound alike per your own admission), yet are out of the other side of your mouth willing to emphatically state that the genre these bands fall within doesn't exist? Have you done any research on this previously, or since beginning this discussion? I have listed plenty of examples to illustrate my points on both sides of the argument (viking and non-viking), have you bothered to listen to the bands I've been talking about to understand what I'm getting at? In order to make any kind of headway, you should probably familiarize yourself with the topic that you're arguing. The sound is there, and I'm not the only one who hears it, as evidenced by nearly every metal website or other reference source listing it among metal's subgenres: Browse bands by genre - Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Metal/ The BNR Metal Pages - Genres Heavy metal music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You don't seem like a n00b or anything, so I'm not trying to be insulting, but it's honestly baffling to me that you wouldn't be able to hear that a band like Borknagar has hardly anything to do with black metal at all. They're not viking, but they are a folk metal band, with their debut maybe having some black metal elements. There's just nothing there to tie it to black metal, just like with other viking and folk metal bands, it doesn't sound black at all. This is especially surprising considering that you don't write off first wave black metal as so many others do, and that you can identify black metal as the sound the Sodom and Destruction were using prior to becoming thrash, I guess there's something of a disconnect for me that you're hearing these differences along other lines and not these lines (viking and doom).

[The Batlord]

I'm certainly not an expert in folk metal, but I'm familiar enough with many of the bands, both folk and "Viking", to know what they sound like. And I really don't hear enough of a difference to justify an entirely new genre. Just take a look at the RYM charts for both Viking and folk metal and, barring the folk bands that don't appear in the Viking metal chart due to not singing about Vikings, they're almost identical. Same Moonsorrow albums, same Bathory albums, same Borknagar albums, same Falkenbach albums, same Ensiferum albums, etc. So yeah, Viking metal = folk metal. Custom chart - Rate Your Music - Viking Metal Custom chart - Rate Your Music - Folk Metal

[BlutAusNerd]

I'm certainly not an expert in folk metal, but I'm familiar enough with many of the bands, both folk and "Viking", to know what they sound like. And I really don't hear enough of a difference to justify an entirely new genre. Just take a look at the RYM charts for both Viking and folk metal and, barring the folk bands that don't appear in the Viking metal chart due to not singing about Vikings, they're almost identical. Same Moonsorrow albums, same Bathory albums, same Borknagar albums, same Falkenbach albums, same Ensiferum albums, etc. So yeah, Viking metal = folk metal. Custom chart - Rate Your Music - Viking Metal Custom chart - Rate Your Music - Folk Metal

Just because they have crossover doesn't make them the same thing. You said yourself earlier that many bands change genres, pull influences from other genres, combine them, etc..., so especially in regards to bordering genres, crossover is to be expected, but that doesn't mean that they're the same. The difference is that folk metal tends to be more like FOLK metal, folk song structures and writing with metal instruments, whereas viking metal uses folky melodies in a metal context. Think Skyclad for folk metal, Thyrfing for viking metal.