What's on your mind?

[jfk36]

Unfortunately, the only system that used proportional representation in modern times that I can think of (having said that i only did up to GCSE history) has failed badly ( Weimar Germany). Please correct me if there is something i'm missing.

[BlutAusNerd]

Man, it's been slow here lately. Where did everyone go? Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Iceni]

Unfortunately, the only system that used proportional representation in modern times that I can think of (having said that i only did up to GCSE history) has failed badly ( Weimar Germany). Please correct me if there is something i'm missing.

Most of Europe uses proportional representation, as do Australia and New Zealand - not the countries that come to mind when I think 'abject political failure'. Technically, the only 'really' democratic states have been city-states and maybe Switzerland (and even then only because Switzerland functions as an amalgamation of small cantons), because democracy where everyone votes on everything is quite simply not practicable in countries larger or more populous than that. PR, if anything, is more responsive to minority concerns than the alternative, which is single-member districts - that's one of its strengths.

We don't have democracy really. If democracy is the will of the majority, then what is a system where a select few make all the decisions? It's hardly any better than having an ultimate leader really.

...you're kidding.

Yes it is. It is much, much better. Go live in Rwanda for a few years if you want to gain an appreciation for the difference between an elected despot and a democratic parliamentary coalition. For that matter, look at the difference in governance in Zimbabwe before and after 1987, before and after 2008, and before and after 2013. I guarantee you will find that even in a joke of a system there are very distinct, observable differences in governance between a despot and even a pathetically anemic power-sharing agreement. In Ethiopia even the Derg, an oligarchy of butchering Communist tyrants, proved a more representative, egalitarian arrangement than the monarchy it overthrew.

At no point in history has every member of a political community been given the power to make policy decisions, not in city-states, not in cantons, not even in tribes. That's not how the social contract works. The only example that even faintly fits that description that I can think of is the ancient place Jenne-Jeno in Mali, which one could only very hesitantly call a 'community' owing to how sparsely populated it was - not a village and certainly not a polity of any description. For that matter, Jenne-Jeno as a community didn't have many decisions to make as it consisted entirely of completely independent farmers who typically had absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Iceni

[Midi]

I happened to stumble upon the best thread ever earlier today.

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45466

[Iceni]

I happened to stumble upon the best thread ever earlier today.

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45466

The subtler humor in that list is how the Bible verses don't even remotely apply to what they're talking about...my friend thoughtfully sent me this and I thought it was hysterical.

[Midi]

The subtler humor in that list is how the Bible verses don't even remotely apply to what they're talking about...

Indeed. Except it's not humor. 

[FatherAlabaster]

Indeed. Except it's not humor. 

Are you taking it personally because he called you dumb and smelly?  I'm amazed by some of the responses from people who don't get that it's a troll page. 

[Midi]

Are you taking it personally because he called you dumb and smelly?  I'm amazed by some of the responses from people who don't get that it's a troll page. 

Personally? No. 

And I just figured it out as well. I didn't thought it was possible to keep it up for over 30 pages if it were a troll. That explains, well, everything though. Damn, these guys are patient. Props to them.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Midi

[AtTheGates]

Most of Europe uses proportional representation, as do Australia and New Zealand - not the countries that come to mind when I think 'abject political failure'. Technically, the only 'really' democratic states have been city-states and maybe Switzerland (and even then only because Switzerland functions as an amalgamation of small cantons), because democracy where everyone votes on everything is quite simply not practicable in countries larger or more populous than that. PR, if anything, is more responsive to minority concerns than the alternative, which is single-member districts - that's one of its strengths.

...you're kidding.

Yes it is. It is much, much better. Go live in Rwanda for a few years if you want to gain an appreciation for the difference between an elected despot and a democratic parliamentary coalition. For that matter, look at the difference in governance in Zimbabwe before and after 1987, before and after 2008, and before and after 2013. I guarantee you will find that even in a joke of a system there are very distinct, observable differences in governance between a despot and even a pathetically anemic power-sharing agreement. In Ethiopia even the Derg, an oligarchy of butchering Communist tyrants, proved a more representative, egalitarian arrangement than the monarchy it overthrew.

At no point in history has every member of a political community been given the power to make policy decisions, not in city-states, not in cantons, not even in tribes. That's not how the social contract works. The only example that even faintly fits that description that I can think of is the ancient place Jenne-Jeno in Mali, which one could only very hesitantly call a 'community' owing to how sparsely populated it was - not a village and certainly not a polity of any description. For that matter, Jenne-Jeno as a community didn't have many decisions to make as it consisted entirely of completely independent farmers who typically had absolutely nothing to do with each other.

I'm talking about the amount of influence over choice the people get in the U.K (in regards of so-called democracy vs a sole leader), not fucking Rwanda. Try reading the context of someone's statement before you extract a part and dump into a nonsensical sentence. I also didn't say that 'ultimate leader' was a despot. There are such things as elected leaders. You don't have to overanalyse EVERYTHING anyone says. Do you have Aspergers by any chance?

[Iceni]

I'm talking about the amount of influence over choice the people get in the U.K (in regards of so-called democracy vs a sole leader), not fucking Rwanda. Try reading the context of someone's statement before you extract a part and dump into a nonsensical sentence. I also didn't say that 'ultimate leader' was a despot. There are such things as elected leaders. You don't have to overanalyse EVERYTHING anyone says. Do you have Aspergers by any chance?

Paul Kagame has been legitimately elected to his last two seven-year terms, so he is in fact an elected leader in a country more transparent than Italy. He fits the comparison you're describing, vague as it is. He also happens to be a despot because he has all the power. It's proved significantly worse than having a stable legislature or an independent judiciary.

I also notice you didn't make a counterpoint to my argument, and have instead opted for an ad hominem attack. Neither, for that matter, have you clarified what your argument is in case I didn't understand.

My point is that the UK has a system of government that is much better than having an ultimate leader (which I assumed would be a despot since you said having few people make decisions is just as bad as having one person make decisions - which suggests dictatorship is preferable to oligarchy/fake democracy). You also said that the UK doesn't have democracy, but as I pointed out to jfk pretty much no country has 'democracy' in its strictest sense - it is flat-out impracticable. It's a moot point to complain, since republics with representative government are the closest most countries can get.

I don't doubt there are problems with the UK political system, but I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that it's much, much better than an officially institutionalized oligarchy or a centralized system with all power in one leader. The general point that institutions matter was the one I made concerning Zimbabwe. Even if the institutions are almost totally dysfunctional it's still better than no institutions.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Iceni

[FatherAlabaster]

[GorboGorboze]

I happened to stumble upon the best thread ever earlier today.

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45466

What the fuck, are those people just basic fundamentalist Christians, or are they a particular sort. It's painful enough to think of the hot houses full of data that remember the foolish shit we talk about here, without that kind of drivel fronting a carbon footprint. The whole fucking internet should be shut down if that is what we are going to do with it. Just today I was thinking some tolerant thoughts about people using resources to do dumb stuff, but that thread pretty much kills tolerance... I might need to go on a sex crusade.

[FatherAlabaster]

What the fuck, are those people just basic fundamentalist Christians, or are they a particular sort. It's painful enough to think of the hot houses full of data that remember the foolish shit we talk about here, without that kind of drivel fronting a carbon footprint. The whole fucking internet should be shut down if that is what we are going to do with it. Just today I was thinking some tolerant thoughts about people using resources to do dumb stuff, but that thread pretty much kills tolerance... I might need to go on a sex crusade.

It's a troll site. 

[Iceni]

What the fuck, are those people just basic fundamentalist Christians, or are they a particular sort.

I'm actually curious whether most of them are atheists, or Christians making fun of fundamentalists. It's probably slightly tipped in favor of the latter.

[RelentlessOblivion]

What no one missed me? Fine guess I'm not wanted around here then

 

So a recap: the vacuum ate my computer charger and spat out a mangled mess, replacement arrived today so yay, following the flu I've been struck with a nasty respiratory virus and pretty much haven't been out of bed for a week, and I'm seriously considering whether or not my relationship is really worth persevering with.

[GorboGorboze]

It's a troll site. 

I thought the original poster was a troll and the reactions were 90% real reactions by real fundamentalists, so I should be praised for my naivete. Anyway very valuable research from Brother Midi, thank you.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Upon reflection it would appear my life is a soap opera, a metal soap opera, you have the family member trying to kill me subplot (insert crash here), boring troubled romance subplot (my relationship), academic failure causing epiphany subplot (university situation - still in progress), what's missing?

[MacabreEternal]

Following my meeting with my new boss yesterday I am being offered the opportunity to be a mentor for new staff as well as now being given a brand new product to take ownership of and develop with clients.  All of my requests for personal development noted and included in my action plan also.  Really happy about going to work at the moment.

[FatherAlabaster]

Following my meeting with my new boss yesterday I am being offered the opportunity to be a mentor for new staff

as well as now being given a brand new product to take ownership of and develop with clients.

 All of my requests for personal development noted and included in my action plan also.  Really happy about going to work at the moment.

Congratulations, I'm glad things are working out so well! 

[RelentlessOblivion]

Yeah congrats Macabre, awesome how things are working out for you all of a sudden, would you kindly ship some of that good luck my way?

[MacabreEternal]

Congratulations, I'm glad things are working out so well! 

 

Genuinely spat a mouthful of coffee out at that post.

Yeah congrats Macabre, awesome how things are working out for you all of a sudden, would you kindly ship some of that good luck my way?

Cheers fella.

[FatherAlabaster]

Upon reflection it would appear my life is a soap opera, a metal soap opera, you have the family member trying to kill me subplot (insert crash here), boring troubled romance subplot (my relationship), academic failure causing epiphany subplot (university situation - still in progress), what's missing?

A spiral into addiction, complete isolation, a moment of epiphany, and a redemptive period of intense creativity that cements your artistic legacy, but comes too late to save you from early death? 

[RelentlessOblivion]

Cycling addiction? check. Period of isolation? well where d'ya think I been all week? Epiphany? Life without coffee is no life at all how's that? Now I just need to do something creative...oh fuck

[RelentlessOblivion]

I'm gone for a week and MetalForum dies? Seriously this place is as dead as I can remember seeing it.

[MacabreEternal]

As great as this place is we only have a minority of regular posters. Whenever I check the Online Users section it is just Guest after Guest after Guest. My other forum is the same to be fair. Even Facebook seems to be calmer nowadays. Maybe once the new development is finished maybe some new blood will arrive. Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk