Meshuggah be djent or not and Groove Metal's Etymology

[Spiderlix]

I have two questions:Why some headbangers fight about Meshuggah be djent or not?And whats the name's origin of groove metal genre?Its true that their name only originated at XXI century?

[Dead1]

Meshuggah started off as technical/jazzy thrash  metal before incorporating more groove metal elements  in late 1990s and morphing into whatever they are now.  We never called them djent back in the day - term is new.

I would regard modern Meshuggah as djent as nothing else really fits them!

Groove metal term is also a 2000s invention as well.  Again we never called it groove metal in 1990s.  It was either thrash, post-thrash or alternative metal.  Alternative metal was a shit category as people tended to dump everything into it be it Faith No More, Tool, Helmet, Alice In Chains, White Zombie, Primus, Rage Against The Machine and even Red Hot Chilli Peppers and Load-era Metallica.  Basically a meaningless catch all.

Post-thrash was pretty good as that is exactly what the music was (eg Pantera, Machine Head, Skinlab, 1990s Sacred Reich, Testament, Anthrax, even Overkill) but it fell out of favour and was replaced by groove metal.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

3 hours ago, Dead1 said:

Meshuggah started off as technical/jazzy thrash metal before incorporating more groove metal elements in late 1990s and morphing into whatever they are now.  We never called them djent back in the day - term is new.

I would regard modern Meshuggah as djent as nothing else really fits them!

Groove metal term is also a 2000s invention as well.  Again we never called it groove metal in 1990s.  It was either thrash, post-thrash or alternative metal.  Alternative metal was a shit category as people tended to dump everything into it be it Faith No More, Tool, Helmet, Alice In Chains, White Zombie, Primus, Rage Against The Machine and even Red Hot Chilli Peppers and Load-era Metallica.  Basically a meaningless catch all.

Post-thrash was pretty good as that is exactly what the music was (eg Pantera, Machine Head, Skinlab, 1990s Sacred Reich, Testament, Anthrax, even Overkill) but it fell out of favour and was replaced by groove metal.

I don't know if it's just because I'm so damn old, but I will never recognize "groove metal" as a bona fide sub-genre. Music is supposed to groove. When a band is grooving the music will still have an underlying sub-genre. Thrash metal can groove, death metal can groove, traditional heavy metal can groove, nu-metal and alternative metal can groove, but as I see it the grooviness doesn't override or negate the underlying sub-genre. Sacred Reich, Testament, Overkill, Exodus are all still thrash bands afaic. Just because some of their material (in particular from the 90's and early 2000's) grooves like hell doesn't negate its being thrash imo.

I wouldn't know about common vernacular usage in 1990's Australia, but here in the states we had a phrase "half-thrash" that some people used to use for some of those types of bands. Frequently used pejoritively, I didn't use it that way myself because I liked a lot of the 90's groovy thrash from bands like the 4 I just listed above quite a bit. And indeed I learned just yesterday that if you Google: "half thrash" the results will come up with "groove metal" at the top of the page, and it lists a bunch of thrash bands as well as a bunch of those bands that certain people have historically liked to argue the merits of whether they're truly quaified to be thrash or not.

Half-thrash is still a meaningless catch-all phrase just like alternative metal and groove metal are for bands that seem to exist in the seams between 2 or 3 different sub-genres without being a perfect fit for any of them. But I personally like the term "half-thrash" better than "groove metal" when it's being applied to thrash bands or former thrash bands, while I would never use it for bands that were never thrash a single day in their existence, e.g. Pantera, Machine Head, Prong, Devil Driver, Hellyeah... But either way I don't consider half-thrash to be a bona fide sub-genre either. I know I've seen "post-thrash" written a few times way back when, but I don't personally remember ever hearing anyone I ever knew say it out loud. Seems I must be far too old to understand what djent is actually supposed to mean because I've read the description several times and I just don't listen to anything like that at all including Meshuggah, so I won't speak to that.

 

 

Demonic Being - Invocations From the Ancient Path, black metal Guadalajara Mexico. Really smitten with this one the last week or so.

 

[AlSymerz]

Cyco Miko had groove in his metal long before the twenty first century. He had so much groove it was infectious!

 

[JonoBlade]

3 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I don't know if it's just because I'm so damn old, but I will never recognize "groove metal" as a bona fide sub-genre. Music is supposed to groove. When a band is grooving the music will still have an underlying sub-genre. Thrash metal can groove, death metal can groove, traditional heavy metal can groove, nu-metal and alternative metal can groove, but as I see it the grooviness doesn't override or negate the underlying sub-genre. Sacred Reich, Testament, Overkill, Exodus are all still thrash bands afaic. Just because some of their material (in particular from the 90's and early 2000's) grooves like hell doesn't negate its being thrash imo.

I'm with you on this. I always scratched my head at the "groove metal" tag. It somehow makes the music sound less serious like thrash bands playing on a bouncy castle. All great music should be groovy in one way or another.

[AlSymerz]

6 minutes ago, JonoBlade said:

like thrash bands playing on a bouncy castle

That's why Anthrax keep getting called groove metal

[JonoBlade]

4 hours ago, AlSymerz said:

That's why Anthrax keep getting called groove metal

I was going to specifically call out Anthrax, but decided against it. They definitely lost some cred by wearing board shorts and rapping ....which is the equivalent of a bouncy castle, however I still don't recall them being referred to as "groove metal". Probably because at their height in 86-90 they were just thrash with particularly clean vocals.  The term groove metal didn't exist then. 

While at some point I have acquired the John Bush-era albums and even especially like the last one, I wouldn't say that was "groove metal" either*. It was kind of simplified thrash, leaning to trad metal.

*but then that is because, as GG states, the term is meaningless.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

1 minute ago, JonoBlade said:

I was going to specifically call out Anthrax, but decided against it. They definitely lost some cred by wearing board shorts and rapping ....which is the equivalent of a bouncy castle, however I still don't recall them being referred to as "groove metal". Probably because at their height in 86-90 they were just thrash with particularly clean vocals.  The term groove metal didn't exist then. 

While at some point I have acquired the John Bush-era albums and even especially like the last one, I wouldn't say that was "groove metal" either*. It was kind of simplified thrash, leaning to trad metal.

*but then that is because, as GG states, the term is meaningless.

Problem with sub-genres is there are always going to be bands that don't fit perfectly into one or another for a variety of reasons, so people will make all kinds of erroneous claims about how they think these bands should be categorized. Because for whatever reason most people feel the need to categorize shit. So you end up with all these catch-all sub-genre names like groove metal or alternative metal or prog metal that they'll throw a bunch of different bands into because they don't know what else to call them. And then these terms eventually become meaningless as more and more random different disparate bands end up stuck in that category that often won't have very much in common with each other.

So yeah, in Anthrax's case I agree "simplified thrash, leaning to trad metal" describes their later (after 1990) stuff pretty accurately. And that description could really apply to quite a few other bands as well. I think it's reasonable to continue to call these bands thrash, especially if they once played thrash. I think it's pointless and a bit overly pedantic to insist on having different sub-genres for every album or small group of albums a band makes that might sound a little bit different from some of their others. And honestly, so many bands have followed the same basic trajectory going from pure unadulterated thrash to "simplified thrash, leaning to trad metal" that I think it makes sense to conclude that both of these styles should be included under the main heading of thrash metal.

Which is not to say that bands can't change sub-genres over time, because obviously there have been many who have changed drastically, doing complete 180's sometimes. I'm not saying all bands must be locked into being whatever sub-genre they started out as forever, just that there should be some leeway for bands to write music that doesn't sound just like a carbon copy of all their previous work without being accused of abandoning their sub-genres and their fans.

[AlSymerz]

6 hours ago, JonoBlade said:

I was going to specifically call out Anthrax, but decided against it. They definitely lost some cred by wearing board shorts and rapping ....which is the equivalent of a bouncy castle, however I still don't recall them being referred to as "groove metal". Probably because at their height in 86-90 they were just thrash with particularly clean vocals.  The term groove metal didn't exist then. 

While at some point I have acquired the John Bush-era albums and even especially like the last one, I wouldn't say that was "groove metal" either*. It was kind of simplified thrash, leaning to trad metal.

*but then that is because, as GG states, the term is meaningless.

Scott Ian calls Anthrax groove metal when he gets a chance. But then he calls the band lots of things and blames everyone else for their downfall while writing the best music of their career. He knows the band was thrash in the early days, he knows it was less thrash when Bush joined but he still thought it was extremely aggressive and heavy. Then in the mid Bush era he claims the record labels failed them by not supporting the best music of their career. Then just before Bush's last album while they were effectively a two piece band when Corey Taylor was considered as a replacement he claimed it was some of the heaviest stuff written despite Corey being nu-metal. It wasn't until Joey came back that he once again believes they've come back to full on thrash. However the thrash they play is not the same as Metallica, who he mentions at every chance he gets. Metallica's thrash was unique and even they weren't copying it in the early days no matter how much they looked up to and respected Metallica.

Since groove metal is a real thing then I'm going to allow Bouncy Castle metal and Anthrax is first band who gets in the category.

[Thatguy]

58 minutes ago, AlSymerz said:

Since groove metal is a real thing then I'm going to allow Bouncy Castle metal and Anthrax is first band who gets in the category.

An eloquent dissertation on the absurdity of sub-genre labels.

Thatguy likes Meshuggah and has never cared to categorise them. 

[AlSymerz]

18 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

An eloquent dissertation on the absurdity of sub-genre labels.

From now one every band has it's own sub genre. There is no thrash, no death, no black, it's all sub genres, the sillier the better.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

1 hour ago, AlSymerz said:

Scott Ian calls Anthrax groove metal when he gets a chance. But then he calls the band lots of things...

1 hour ago, AlSymerz said:

he claims the record labels failed them by not supporting the best music of their career.

Who cares about those washed up has beens? 

And what do these bands really think the record labels are supposed to do to support them? The fact that you know so much about them means the info is out there to be found on the internet. Everyone's aware this mainstream metal band exists and anyone who's interested can listen to their albums on Youtube or Spotify or Bandcamp or wherever and then they are free to buy them if they want. They're supposed to stay visible and reach new fans by touring.

But I guess since they're washed up has beens at this point no bigger bands are ringing their phones off the hook to take them out on tour with them. And they're not really a major headline act on their own anymore that you could build a big arena tour around, so have they been reduced to playing 500 or 1,000 capacity clubs where they draw crowds of 200 people?

Scott will be 60 this year with a net worth of $6 million, which while not comparable to Hetfield and Ulrich's 300 million each, is still a bit more than most people's. And his wife Pearl (Meatloaf's daughter) is worth about 4 million herself so that's $10 million US. Just retire and enjoy your golden years Scott. Maybe take up gardening or woodworking or something. Little Danny Spitz was the smart one who saw the writing on the wall 28 years ago and left to be a watchmaker and is now worth $20 million at 60 and doesn't have to drive around the country living in an RV/bus with a bunch of drunken sweaty dudes.

[FatherAlabaster]

12 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Who cares about those washed up has beens? 

And what do these bands really think the record labels are supposed to do to support them? The fact that you know so much about them means the info is out there to be found on the internet. Everyone's aware this mainstream metal band exists and anyone who's interested can listen to their albums on Youtube or Spotify or Bandcamp or wherever and then they are free to buy them if they want. They're supposed to stay visible and reach new fans by touring.

But I guess since they're washed up has beens at this point no bigger bands are ringing their phones off the hook to take them out on tour with them. And they're not really a major headline act on their own anymore that you could build a big arena tour around, so have they been reduced to playing 500 or 1,000 capacity clubs where they draw crowds of 200 people?

Scott will be 60 this year with a net worth of $6 million, which while not comparable to Hetfield and Ulrich's 300 million each, is still a bit more than most people's. And his wife Pearl (Meatloaf's daughter) is worth about 4 million herself so that's $10 million US. Just retire and enjoy your golden years Scott. Maybe take up gardening or woodworking or something. Little Danny Spitz was the smart one who saw the writing on the wall 28 years ago and left to be a watchmaker and is now worth $20 million at 60 and doesn't have to drive around the country living in an RV/bus with a bunch of drunken sweaty dudes.

Makes me think about the only time I saw them, in 1996, and how John Bush spent all of his crowd banter time bitching about how small and crappy the venue was. They were born for better things.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

 

I've seen Anthrax multiple times between '84 and '87 most of those at L'Amour in Bensonhurst (La-mawz) which was the spot for metal back then. But by '96 I had lost their number. I've seen Bush with Armored Saint once though, also at L'Amour, Jan '85 opening for Metallica and Wasp. But they had goofy stage outfits back then so I'm sure we were over at the bar waiting for the break between sets to push and shove our way up to the front of the stage for the headliners.

[AlSymerz]

1 hour ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Who cares about those washed up has beens? 

And what do these bands really think the record labels are supposed to do to support them? The fact that you know so much about them means the info is out there to be found on the internet. Everyone's aware this mainstream metal band exists and anyone who's interested can listen to their albums on Youtube or Spotify or Bandcamp or wherever and then they are free to buy them if they want. They're supposed to stay visible and reach new fans by touring.

But I guess since they're washed up has beens at this point no bigger bands are ringing their phones off the hook to take them out on tour with them. And they're not really a major headline act on their own anymore that you could build a big arena tour around, so have they been reduced to playing 500 or 1,000 capacity clubs where they draw crowds of 200 people?

Scott will be 60 this year with a net worth of $6 million, which while not comparable to Hetfield and Ulrich's 300 million each, is still a bit more than most people's. And his wife Pearl (Meatloaf's daughter) is worth about 4 million herself so that's $10 million US. Just retire and enjoy your golden years Scott. Maybe take up gardening or woodworking or something. Little Danny Spitz was the smart one who saw the writing on the wall 28 years ago and left to be a watchmaker and is now worth $20 million at 60 and doesn't have to drive around the country living in an RV/bus with a bunch of drunken sweaty dudes.

Your little rants about nothing make a dull day better.

 

39 minutes ago, FatherAlabaster said:

Makes me think about the only time I saw them, in 1996, and how John Bush spent all of his crowd banter time bitching about how small and crappy the venue was. They were born for better things.

Considering John led Armored Saint up to that point he's probably right on a personal level.

[FatherAlabaster]

12 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

 

I've seen Anthrax multiple times between '84 and '87 most of those at L'Amour in Bensonhurst (La-mawz) which was the spot for metal back then. But by '96 I had lost their number. I've seen Bush with Armored Saint once though, also at L'Amour, Jan '85 opening for Metallica and Wasp. But they had goofy stage outfits back then so I'm sure we were over at the bar waiting for the break between sets to push and shove our way up to the front of the stage for the headliners.

The only times I ever went to L'amour for either playing shows, seeing friends play shows, or (most importantly) Type O Negative. The 1996 Anthrax show was with Cannibal Corpse and the Misfits and it was at some little shithole club in North Carolina. John Bush wasn't really wrong. But also we paid our hard earned dosh to be there and don't rub it in people's faces, right? Anyway it turned out great for them.

 

As a fan of bands, I think Meshuggah is great, but as a fan of albums I have to admit Destroy Erase Improve is still my favorite and I don't really connect with much they've done in the past 20 years. Apparently the word "djent" started with a conversation one of the Meshuggah guitarists was having with a fan where he was trying to describe the guitar sound they liked, and the fan misheard him and thought it was a word. I don't know when "groove metal" started being used but I kinda recall some Cowboys-era Pantera interview (I think they were on a beach? meh) where Phil said something about "power" and "groove" and then said they were the "best power groove band on the planet". They should've found a different frontman just for interviews.

I heard "post-thrash" and even just "post-metal" in the 90s (talking about bands like Tool, before Isis and Neurosis laid claim to it), but didn't hear anything about "groove metal" specifically until someone told me to listen to Machine Head, which was a bad idea. Fucking terrible band. Wasn't all that late 90s-2000s commercial metal but-not-exactly-nu-metal stuff the "New Wave Of American Heavy Metal" for a while, too? Go away fellas. No love.

I don't subscribe to the idea that subgenre labels are dumb, they mostly just come from people trying to figure out how to talk about stuff they enjoy, but there are a few I don't have any use for, and these are two of them.

25 minutes ago, AlSymerz said:

Considering John led Armored Saint up to that point he's probably right on a personal level.

I have some sympathy for his position.

[AlSymerz]

13 minutes ago, FatherAlabaster said:

I have some sympathy for his position.

He did choose the take the gig, and he chose to take it through a pretty rough time for music in general. Maybe he saw it as easier than slugging it out with a band where he was leader and the buck stopped with him. Maybe he did see it as a great career move. Either way I think he got what he wanted out of Anthrax, Anthrax got 1 great album and one mediocre album, so it's a win for both sides.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

43 minutes ago, AlSymerz said:

He did choose the take the gig, and he chose to take it through a pretty rough time for music in general. Maybe he saw it as easier than slugging it out with a band where he was leader and the buck stopped with him. Maybe he did see it as a great career move. Either way I think he got what he wanted out of Anthrax, Anthrax got 1 great album and one mediocre album, so it's a win for both sides.

According to M-A, Mr Bush sang on 5 albums and an EP in his 15 years with the band. So when you say one great album and one mediocre album, which ones would those be? Can I assume this means you don't think very highly of the other ones? 

And dude, that wasn't a rant, I'm just tawkin' here. But thank you, I do aim to entertain.

[AlSymerz]

Anthrax = Not a bad album in their entire catalogue!

 

[Dead1]

I think it's funny you guys are disputing the existence of groove metal when you don't even listen to it.  Seriously it's like me saying Depressive Black Metal is not a thing and that Cradle of Filth and Darkthrone are the same.

I can hear it be it listening to Pantera or Lamb of God or Skinlab or Machine Head or something like Sacred Reich's American Way or Onslaught's Killing Piece or Testament's Demonic.  It's also often got a slightly thrashier vibe but it can also take influence from other genres such as more commercial death metal and melodic death metal and hardcore.

It's chunky metal with far more emphasis on groove and "overt masculinity" with vocals that are often more of a bellow or semi bark than a thrash bark.   Tempo's usually slower than thrash but again they can be thrash level speed (eg Machine Head's Blood for Blood or Pantera's Suicide Note II).  Production is also thicker than thrash.

 

A lot of older thrash bands have taken on trappings of groove metal in the 1990s and  21st century.  Sacred Reich and Exhorder helped invent it, but Testament, Sepultura, Overkill and Anthrax (Sound of White Noise, aspects of Volume 8 ) also incorporated it in the 1990s.  I'd also argue death metal bands incorporated bits of groove metal - eg  Napalm Death's Diatribes or Entombed's Wolverine Blues or Morbid Angel's Domination).

1 hour ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

According to M-A, Mr Bush sang on 5 albums and an EP in his 15 years with the band. So when you say one great album and one mediocre album, which ones would those be? Can I assume this means you don't think very highly of the other ones? 

And dude, that wasn't a rant, I'm just tawkin' here. But thank you, I do aim to entertain.

He sang on 4 albums.  The Greater of Two Evils is a compilation of re-recorded Joey and Turbin era songs.

 

Sound of White Noise is awesome.

Volume 8 has some great moments and some really naff ones.

You'd hate both.

 

Stomp 442 was meh and We've Come For You all are shit on par with Metallica's St Anger.   

[AlSymerz]

3 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

I think it's funny you guys are disputing the existence of groove metal

I've moved on to bouncy castle metal and all it's sub genres such as bouncy castle death metal, bouncy castle crossover metal and my all time favourite of which there is thousands, bouncy castle black metal.

[Dead1]

1 hour ago, FatherAlabaster said:

where Phil said something about "power" and "groove" and then said they were the "best power groove band on the planet". They should've found a different frontman just for interviews.

I heard "post-thrash" and even just "post-metal" in the 90s (talking about bands like Tool, before Isis and Neurosis laid claim to it), but didn't hear anything about "groove metal" specifically until someone told me to listen to Machine Head, which was a bad idea. Fucking terrible band. Wasn't all that late 90s-2000s commercial metal but-not-exactly-nu-metal stuff the "New Wave Of American Heavy Metal" for a while, too? Go away fellas. No love.

I remember the Phil interview.  Back then though there wasn't anything to really describe their sound.

 

I also remember post thrash and New Wave of American Health Metal which both died.  NOWAHM which was used for probably less than a year ended up split into melodic metalcore and groove metal bands.

11 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

 

So yeah, in Anthrax's case I agree "simplified thrash, leaning to trad metal" describes their later (after 1990) stuff pretty accurately. 

I really think you've never listened to any post 1990 Anthrax.

It's a real mixed bag.  They had fucking country songs on some albums and on albums like We've Come For You All it is a lot closer to 1990s hard rock ala Creed!  90% of it is too slow for thrash and most of the riffs are not thrash - they're groovy chunky style riffs found in bands you'd usually call groove metal or alternative rock riffs.

[AlSymerz]

12 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

Sound of White Noise is awesome.

Volume 8 has some great moments and some really naff ones.

You'd hate both.

 

Stomp 442 and We've Come For You all are shit on par with Metallica's St Anger.   

I don't remember V8 and Stomp, although I do remember Scott saying how great they were and Stomp really should have been career defining but the label didn't support it.

The covers album isn't something I'd go for either. But SOWN is my favouriteAnthrax album while WCFYA is a borderline pass for me.

[Dead1]

2 minutes ago, AlSymerz said:

I don't remember V8 and Stomp, although I do remember Scott saying how great they were and Stomp really should have been career defining but the label didn't support it.

The covers album isn't something I'd go for either. But SOWN is my favouriteAnthrax album while WCFYA is a borderline pass for me.

SOWN really is phenomenal.

I haven't listened to Stomp 442 in years and can't remember it.  I will give it a listen.

I like Vol 8 as a whole but it's got some crap as well. 

Scott Ian comes off even sadder with his statements than Dave Mustaine.  

[AlSymerz]

Just now, Dead1 said:

Scott Ian comes off even sadder with his statements than Dave Mustaine.  

Yeah, if he's not kissing Lars' arse he's making backhanded compliments and blaming everyone else for his fuck ups.

[FatherAlabaster]

17 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

I remember the Phil interview.  Back then though there wasn't anything to really describe their sound.

Thus are subgenre names born.