Femininity and Sexuality in Metal

[scroogles]

This has been something bugging me for ages, so I thought I'd see what the opinion was. Open sexuality (and sensuality) has been expressed by particularly darker metal bands to provide a harsh, risqué edge their work, and helps conjure visions of carnal lust and uncontrolled, sinful passion. More importantly, it seems to be seen as a way of steering morality away from the old Christian values of chastity and sexual modesty. Based on this, a lot is made of womanhood in the symbolism and imagery – both in lyrics and in images themselves – of dark metal genres. In particular, the image of the female temptress, with deep sexual passions and wielding massive power (especially over men) as a result, has been used extensively. Thinking back to the likes of Cradle of Filth’s Nymphetamine, or Silentium’s Seducia, this involves a sweetly-voiced female protagonist singing sexually alluring words to her helpless male counterpart. On the one hand, this acknowledges female sexuality in a way which traditional social attitudes refused to do. It can be understood as a fairly modern phenomenon in the sense of making female sexuality a visible issue, rather than leaving hidden. On the other hand, the idea of the temptress is a very, very old one. It was key, for example, to the medieval witch hunts, and revolves not around the idea that women have moral equality in their sexuality to men, but, in fact, the total opposite: that they are prone to uncontrolled sexual passions which make them dangerous to men and, in moral terms, make themselves particularly vulnerable to sin. In re-establishing this vision of the temptress to portray ideas of sexuality, metal bands are not being anywhere near as risqué or cutting edge as they might think they are. In fact, they’re being totally regressive. Even though this is portrayed in a glorified manner, treating female sexuality woman as a sinful, uncontrollable lust robs it of its moral legitimacy in exactly the same way as traditional, religious attitudes do: men wanting sex are acting in a normal and reasonable way; women wanting the same thing are dangerous and unpredictable. Sorry for the mini essay, but I wanted to bounce these ideas off you guys quickly. What do you think? Am I right, or have I misinterpreted this whole thing?

[Iceni]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal I think you're wrong in assuming unrestricted male libido is somehow a 'traditional religious value'. I can only speak for my own religion, but a lecherous male and a lecherous female are equally guilty in Christianity. Temptation is only effective if the tempted capitulates - and that capituation is wrong. Anyhow, to the metal: I prefer it when metal bands attack the concept of lack of self-control; it helps reduce the idea that metal is a continuaiton of the 'sex, drugs, and rock and roll' axiom.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal Iceni is right on the ball here the traditional religious stance is that promiscuity is, regardless of gender, sinful and "evil", so far as sexuality in metal is concerned it is a trend particularly in gothic metal and among certain black metal bands. I have also noticed that some bands portray women as manipulative beings, for example Megadeth's In My Darkest Hour, there seems to be a strong anti-femine stance in metal

[The Strategos]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal You say that but maybe it isn't always so clear-cut, I mean look at the adoration front-women get in symphonic and folk metal, like Tarja.

[scroogles]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal I see you guys' points on the issue of sexual promiscuity and temptation in religious values. But, that said, there's been a very, very long history of specific demonisation (perhaps literally!) of female sexuality as something inherently deviant and dangerous. Of course, fully-blown expressions of male lust were never valued highly either, but there has often been an idea that a main part of the problem was women leading men astray. You'll search the bible in vain for direct references to this idea, I'd guess, but in the popular religious mentality, it's always been common and, as I said before, is firmly rooted in many of the fundamental ideas behind with witchcraft. @Strategos - you're right, of course, about female-fronted bands. Metal's very much a mixed bag, but the rise of the frontwoman has been a massively valuable phenomenon. It's probably not a coincidence that some of the bands that most aggressively pursue ideas of provocative and manipulative female sexuality (CoF, being a particularly good example) are male fronted (although my other original example, Silentium, would be an exception here).

[RelentlessOblivion]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal there is another problem here which I have noticed in gothic metal particularly, the depiction of women as helpless, the damsel in distress needing a man to save them seems to be prevalent in that style, and songs depicting women as slaves to their emotions rather then sexual desires are not uncommon,

[The Strategos]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal True, it seems even in this day and age the mysogynist stands tall and bellows out like the prehistoric yak he is ! Oh, and Scroogles is definately right about men seeing female sexuality as dangerous but it is far from a religious issue. The Ancient Greeks (bar Sparta) thought that women had to be controlled and kept away from men because they were much more promiscuous than men, a belief based in part upon their belief in the myth that an ancient seer Tiresias had spent some time as a woman and according to him a woman experienced nine tenth of the pleasure when having sex! The Romans were a bit less severe but still distrusted women, curiously enough I wonder because they did not find the same things to esteem in a man as the men did themselve - something which continues to this day! Juvenal for instance complains about women's liking for gladiators (his writings are extremely sexist and he clearly thinks women weak, capricious and self-centered!). Part of the problem there was the issue of heredity becasue if a woman has sex with different people who knows who the father is? The early mediaeval period is fairly free of a sexual stigma attached to women but this is something which grow towards the end of the period and there is even a vulgar painting I saw with St. George slaying a dragon fitted with female genitalia! But whereas the force of this came from the church I would say it was a more sociological desire than a religious one of men to control their wives and push them around. Sexism and demonisation of women I think reached it's venith in the nineteenth century where such movements as the pre-raphaelites idealised woman was either devious whores or helpless, complaint virgins of the type which just excused men the need to face up either to the reality of women or the fact that your wife wouldn't just be hanging around for you after you had finished doing your serious works with your male friends. I final point of interest I though I might mention is that until about the georgian period when medical science scotched the idea it was believed that in order for pregnancy to even have a chance of happening a woman had to climax, on the same grounds that if a man needed to do so to be of any use in that department so did a woman. This actually meant that within marriage there was perseived a need to please your wife as much as yourself!

[RelentlessOblivion]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal even outside the metal world there is still a very anti-feminine sentiment, it is expected that all women of a certain age will be eomployed only so long then become pregnant and stay home to raise the child before re-entering the work force once the child is semi self sufficient

[Iceni]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal

there is another problem here which I have noticed in gothic metal particularly' date=' the depiction of women as helpless, the damsel in distress needing a man to save them seems to be prevalent in that style, and songs depicting women as slaves to their emotions rather then sexual desires are not uncommon,[/quote'] True, but for every one of those there's one where the frontwoman is complaining about an abusive or otherwise detrimental partner. Modern gothic metal talks about romance to the exclusion of almost any other subject.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal oh I have another one, I've noticed on at least one occasion metal talking about women's destructive influence on men in a relationship, Megadeth's Tornado Of Souls is an example

[scroogles]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal Hey, ladies and gents - absolutely fascinating! Sorry I've been away for a little while (holidays!)... @Strategos - that's really interesting about the pervasive nature of female sexuality throughout history. The reason I wanted to highlight the role of religion when it comes to female sexuality was the relevance of messianic religious themes to metal, in particular gothic metal (in which I would certainly count bands like Cradle of Filth et al.). There's overwhelming focus on notions of "dark" and "light", which - while not necessarily Christian - are central to religious ideas of morality. But it's really interesting to see how far back all this goes! @Murph - definitely. In that respect, metal's no different from any other walk of life, but I for one would like to see heavy metal - especially the sub-strands and genres within it - which has so often been the champion of diversity and individuality take a really revolutionary stance on the issue. Which it doesn't. At least not usually. @Iceni - true, that, and it'd be wrong to tar all musical genres with the same brush. I just really wanted to draw attention to the issue of femininity and sexuality, in particular.

[The Strategos]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal I guess it doesn't help that women are so reticent to pick up guitars themselves. Most female metal fans seem to want to watch or at best sing. It doesn't exactly bust through the gender stereotypes. I mean, if a woman was up there on a big stage blazing away with some awesome solo, that might shut a few mysogynists up!

[scroogles]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal @Strategos - although, you might want to check out this little Japanese outfit for female guitarists...

[The Strategos]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal I'll check that on monday becasue I've reached my limit of videos forthe week !

[RelentlessOblivion]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal there are female guitarists, the problem is that everyone views them as being "pretty good for a chick" but by default they are not viewed as being equal in ability to their male counterparts

[Iceni]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal

there are female guitarists' date=' the problem is that everyone views them as being "pretty good for a chick" but by default they are not viewed as being equal in ability to their male counterparts[/quote'] Well, if I'm perfectly honest, a lot of them do kinda suck. However, Simone Dow (from your neck of the woods), a member of Voyager, is a great guitarist.

[The Strategos]

Re: Femininity and Sexuality in Metal Erm, that band were O.K. but I didn't really feel a great deal of passion but then maybe that was just the song. Thanks anyway, Scroogles !

[Metallisydän]

Oh, well, I think it’s okei to symbolize the beauty and sensuality by using women, there’s nothing wrong about it. Or at least I think so. But everything has a limit, you know… I have nothing against good-looking girls, neither against not-so-good-looking ones. But I think it’s kind of blameworthy to use nude girls to make metal videos… If you want to see naked girls, you can watch a porn film and everybody will be happy. Why does Satyricon put, for example, a girl playing with a snake around her tits? I don’t know, I don’t get the logic, and that wasn’t sexy for me. It was out of place, I think that the use of girls in that way is… comparable to the one which that terrible South-American music style I wish I had never heard make. They use women as objects… as pets… as… something just to “calm down the instincts” and nothing else. That’s frustrating, guys. Girls may be a nice view, but, hei, don’t use them as objects. But about that the women are the “evil” who corrupts men… Maybe that’s because men often think with the crotch. Hehe, it’s unavoidable! There’s nothing there to blame, but when women are smart and use that against them… well, women can be good manipulating. They’re better manipulating than men, or at least my experience says so… Men don’t usually make a world of a molehill. Women tend to make complicated deliberations about "maybes" and things like that. I always try to comprehend the world around me, and that's what people show to me day by day.

[Iceni]

But about that the women are the “evil” who corrupts men… Maybe that’s because men often think with the crotch. Hehe' date=' it’s unavoidable! There’s nothing there to blame, but when women are smart and use that against them… well, women can be good manipulating. They’re better manipulating than men, or at least my experience says so… Men don’t usually make a world of a molehill. Women tend to make complicated deliberations about "maybes" and things like that. I always try to comprehend the world around me, and that's what people show to me day by day.[/quote'] Oh, you would get SO much hate at my campus. If the song is supposed to address the concept of lust, it makes sense. Another man wouldn't work unless the male singer were homosexual or bisexual. In any event, I know that late Theatre of Tragedy, Within Temptation, Epica, etc. use men in precisely the same context, and it makes sense for them because these bands usually have heterosexual female singers. I think that idea refers to the Biblical tale of the Garden of Eden, but most people forget that both parties were guilty. Eve may have been easily duped, but it was Adam who willfully went against his better judgment and knowledge instead of refraining from the temptation. Different sins, but both equally heinous...and something I plan to address in my next set of lyrics.

[RelentlessOblivion]

So after Iceni raised an intriguing point in another thread I thought a thread like this may provoke some worthwhile discussion. In essence what I'm hoping will be discussed here is how the idea of acceptable and "wrong" sexual practices have changed throughout history and in different cultures. Iceni's point was specifically related to consensual pedofilia and whilst I personally don't think such activity should be encouraged in a historical context it is far from abnormal. Throughout the middle ages girls were considered suitable partners upon their first menstrual cycle. It was not uncommon for girls as young as thirteen to be married off and normally to partners considerably older, of course life expectancy in those times was much lower and so this was justified as a necessary practice in order to extend a families bloodline. In more modern times this practice has been observed in many tribes throughout Africa and South America. It is difficult to pinpoint exactly when societies attitude towards these sorts of relationships changed but I personally find it fascinating how practices once considered acceptable are no longer thought to be so whilst practices once punishable by execution, namely homosexuality, are now considered socially acceptable.

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Re: Sexuality well the explanation is i'm only 16 and i have been brought up being told it was bad. so i think it is bad.

[RelentlessOblivion]

yes yes yes we as a society consider these things to be "bad" "evil" and "wrong" however history suggests that such a view is abnormal, wherever you look throughout time you find examples which suggest our modern stance on these matters isn't so modern, Ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, Ancient Egypt. History also has examples of this not being the accepted practice of course but that's boring isn't it? normal is boring.

[Iceni]

I suppose I ought to ask: what age were most of these underage relationships? I ask because people had shorter life expectancies in general during bygone eras. They matured earlier in life simply because they had a shorter space of time to do it in. I vaguely recall something saying that most people (or at least most boys) were considered to have matured by about puberty.

[BlutAusNerd]

I believe that this issue (as well as most other issues in society) can be easily solved by adhering to John Stuart Mill's Harm Principal. In the case of homosexuality, it does not harm anyone for two men or two women to have sex with each other, so long as they both consent, so I'm not sure why people care so much. I get that many people have issues with the practice itself (most of which are emotional and not rational, to paraphrase Iceni), but it has no effect on you as long as you're not involved and don't perceive it, so why do you care? I guess that the same could be said for many unconventional sexual practices, some of which (with heterosexuals as well) are even more disgusting for me to think about than gay sex, but since I have nothing to do with them, I don't feel that I have a right to object so long as the practitioners aren't objecting either. I think it's interesting that society is so sexually repressed that they get hung up about what kind of sex people are having, and are practically bashing the bedroom door down to tell you to stop (or is it get a peek?), when they could be worrying about and focusing their energy towards solving legitimate problems in the world. Like, I dunno, poverty, war, genocide, greed, hunger, you know, stuff that actually makes a difference. Nobody said that you had to like it, just like I'm not obligated to like doing the missionary position in the dark fully clothed, so stop worrying about it.

[Iceni]

For John Stuart Mill alone you get a Horns Up. It is interesting: I remember that in Dante's Inferno people who gave and received blowjobs burned in hell alongside the adulterous and promiscuous. Not really sure how Biblical that is...anyhow, like I said on the other thread, pedophilia seems to be inherently predatory in some regard, but that does still leave incest.