First Wave of the First Wave?

[BlutAusNerd]

"Proto" isn't the same as "pre" as far as prefixes go, but it seems that "proto" is typically used in this context in music settings. "Proto" literally means "the first of" or "the earliest form of" as opposed to "a precursor to", so it's still technically accurate even if it isn't being used that way. I still prefer the "first wave" nomenclature though, especially since addressing later black metal as "second wave" wouldn't make much sense without it.

 

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[RelentlessOblivion]

A point we really should have arrived at sooner...

[salmonellapancake]

Didn't mean to open up a can of worms with this thread, but there sure is a lot of awesome commentary on Black Metal here!

[Requiem]

On 25/07/2017 at 7:09 AM, salmonellapancake said:

Didn't mean to open up a can of worms with this thread, but there sure is a lot of awesome commentary on Black Metal here!

Hey Salmo, do you think there are bands out there that we could define as proto-proto-black metal? 

[Vampyrique]

I didn't read every post but from what I did read, I agree with everything that BlutAusNerd said. 

It was no coincidence that the Norwegian bands all initially played death metal and then suddenly quit; they deliberately strove to to bring extreme metal back to its raw, ugly, blackened roots when they were annoyed with the 'trendy' burgeoning death metal scene; it's exposure, popularity, image, cleaner production. Many of the already-mentioned 80s bands served as major influences but Bathory, in particular, was plagiarized the most; hence why most black metal fans will cite Bathory as the first and only 'true black metal band' of that era but this understanding or lack thereof is akin to a kind of revisionist history. 

[BlutAusNerd]

19 minutes ago, Vampyrique said:

I didn't read every post but from what I did read, I agree with everything that BlutAusNerd said. 

It was no coincidence that the Norwegian bands all initially played death metal and then suddenly quit; they deliberately strove to to bring extreme metal back to it's raw, ugly, blackened roots when they were annoyed with the 'trendy' burgeoning death metal scene; it's exposure, popularity, image, cleaner production. Many of the already-mentioned 80s bands served as major influences but Bathory, in particular, was plagiarized the most; hence why most black metal fans will cite Bathory as the first and only 'true black metal band' of that era but this understanding or lack thereof is akin to a kind of revisionist history. 

Thank you! Historical revisionism drives me crazy, and it seems to only be prompted by the notoriety of the Norwegian scene which mostly did follow Bathory's template. That doesn't mean that other first wave bands weren't black metal, it means that bands from other scenes drew more from Venom, Mercyful Fate, Sodom, Celtic Frost/Hellhammer, Bulldozer, Sarcófago, etc... Norway wasn't the first country to produce black metal as most people seem to think, and even in the second wave, there were scenes all over the world producing lots of black metal that people just seem to forget because they didn't receive press coverage from their extra-musical band antics. 

[Vampyrique]

36 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

Thank you! Historical revisionism drives me crazy, and it seems to only be prompted by the notoriety of the Norwegian scene which mostly did follow Bathory's template. That doesn't mean that other first wave bands weren't black metal, it means that bands from other scenes drew more from Venom, Mercyful Fate, Sodom, Celtic Frost/Hellhammer, Bulldozer, Sarcófago, etc... Norway wasn't the first country to produce black metal as most people seem to think, and even in the second wave, there were scenes all over the world producing lots of black metal that people just seem to forget because they didn't receive press coverage from their extra-musical band antics. 

I should also mention too the role of imitators, whether good or bad, and how they influence the perception of a genre. They come in droves and help to popularize a style of music and to a great extent cement into definition what it means to play a particular style of music by the conscious decision to exploit and replicate certain qualities derived from the originators on a mass scale. For example, if 500 black metal bands deliberately write an album in homage to Transilvanian Hunger, people will naturally begin to associate the black metal sound with Transilvanian Hunger and view it to be the archetypal black metal album whether or nor this is fair or accurate in regards to historical context. 

 

[salmonellapancake]

On 7/26/2017 at 5:04 AM, Requiem said:

Hey Salmo, do you think there are bands out there that we could define as proto-proto-black metal? 

I definitely wouldn't say that. As FA said much earlier, this post wasn't meant to be taken very seriously. It's just a matter of getting down to exactly what shaped the birth of extreme metal, particularly early Black Metal.

[Requiem]

6 hours ago, Vampyrique said:

I should also mention too the role of imitators, whether good or bad, and how they influence the perception of a genre. They come in droves and help to popularize a style of music and to a great extent cement into definition what it means to play a particular style of music by the conscious decision to exploit and replicate certain qualities derived from the originators on a mass scale. For example, if 500 black metal bands deliberately write an album in homage to Transilvanian Hunger, people will naturally begin to associate the black metal sound with Transilvanian Hunger and view it to be the archetypal black metal album whether or nor this is fair or accurate in regards to historical context. 

 

You've got a pretty good point here. I'm convinced. 

 

6 hours ago, salmonellapancake said:

I definitely wouldn't say that. As FA said much earlier, this post wasn't meant to be taken very seriously. It's just a matter of getting down to exactly what shaped the birth of extreme metal, particularly early Black Metal.

Yeah, I have to admit I was being a bit cheeky with that post. I guess I should have used more emojis.

[salmonellapancake]

9 hours ago, Requiem said:

 

Yeah, I have to admit I was being a bit cheeky with that post. I guess I should have used more emojis.

No, I get you man, haha.

[BlutAusNerd]

On 8/10/2017 at 10:01 PM, Vampyrique said:

I should also mention too the role of imitators, whether good or bad, and how they influence the perception of a genre. They come in droves and help to popularize a style of music and to a great extent cement into definition what it means to play a particular style of music by the conscious decision to exploit and replicate certain qualities derived from the originators on a mass scale. For example, if 500 black metal bands deliberately write an album in homage to Transilvanian Hunger, people will naturally begin to associate the black metal sound with Transilvanian Hunger and view it to be the archetypal black metal album whether or nor this is fair or accurate in regards to historical context. 

 

I agree completely. A lot of historical revisionism isn't done on purpose, but is rather the result of the over sensationalized Norwegian scene. Their imitators mostly copy one template (the Transylvanian Hunger template), so the perception then becomes that this is the defining black metal album with all of the elements that can be found in its worshipers, and the original bands aren't seen as such because they contain many elements that Darkthrone themselves stripped out of their sound on that release.

[Vampyrique]

6 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

I agree completely. A lot of historical revisionism isn't done on purpose, but is rather the result of the over sensationalized Norwegian scene. Their imitators mostly copy one template (the Transylvanian Hunger template), so the perception then becomes that this is the defining black metal album with all of the elements that can be found in its worshipers, and the original bands aren't seen as such because they contain many elements that Darkthrone themselves stripped out of their sound on that release.

Exactly. And it's certainly interesting to see how the definition of a genre changes over time. As you well know, black metal was originally meant to be metal that was 'black' in essence but basically morphed into a style defined moreso by certain musical characteristics.

I'm really not sure what is better: to define a genre based on abstract qualities that speak to the essence and feeling of the music or by very literal things like vocal style and musical characteristics. I would likely choose the former because that tends to lead to more originality and creativity even if it makes categorization more difficult.  

 

 

 

 

[BlutAusNerd]

11 hours ago, Vampyrique said:

Exactly. And it's certainly interesting to see how the definition of a genre changes over time. As you well know, black metal was originally meant to be metal that was 'black' in essence but basically morphed into a style defined moreso by certain musical characteristics.

I'm really not sure what is better: to define a genre based on abstract qualities that speak to the essence and feeling of the music or by very literal things like vocal style and musical characteristics. I would likely choose the former because that tends to lead to more originality and creativity even if it makes categorization more difficult.  

 

 

 

 

The genre is about the songwriting and the atmosphere it creates, and grouping together bands  that have similar results from the music that they create, rather than the tools that they use to create it. The techniques aren't always unique to a genre, and there are only so many scales that you can play in, but it's all about how the whole package is constructed and the "essence" or "feeling" that it conjures.