What are some good examples of proto-extreme metal?

[agamerwholovesmetal]

I'm not even sure if that's what you would call it but I'm referring any band, album, or demo that came out before venom's debut in 1981 (lets say from 1978-1980) that kind of foreshadowed the faster, more aggressive, dark, and satanic direction the genre would eventually go in.

ones that came to mind for me were

Angel witches first two demos (lyrically)

Motorheads overkill, bomber, and ace of spades

Witchfynde's self titled

Diamond head's lightning to the nations (specifically for thrash)

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

30 minutes ago, agamerwholovesmetal said:

I'm not even sure if that's what you would call it but I'm referring any band, album, or demo that came out before venom's debut in 1981 (lets say from 1978-1980) that kind of foreshadowed the faster, more aggressive, dark, and satanic direction the genre would eventually go in.

ones that came to mind for me were

Angel Witches first two demos (lyrically)

Motorheads Overkill, Bomber, and Ace of Spades

Witchfynde's self titled

Diamond Head's Lightning to the Nations (specifically for thrash)

 

I'd probably call that stuff proto thrash, since thrash was the original extreme metal sub-genre. I've never thought of any of those 4 bands as being particularly extreme though, not even for 1980. I don't really see a direct link from nwobhm to black or death metal. You have to go through thrash first. There's really nothing besides Sabbath from before 1979 that I'd be willing to call heavy metal anyway, '79 - '80 that's right where 70's hard rock was transitioning into 80's heavy metal. But not extreme metal, that was a ways off still, so maybe I'm just missing what you're getting at. All these nwobhm bands are the kind of thing most of the 80's thrash originators grew up listening to in high school or just after, because that was the heaviest shit we had back then, along with Sabbath of course. But musically it's all still basically just hard rock on steroids afaic until you get to '83-'84. I think the reason that many albums from '80 - '81 and later sounded somewhat heavier than most of the 70's hard rock bands that had come before was more due to recording technology improvements which allowed them to capture a heavier sound on tape. Because before 1980 it was basically a given that most hard rock bands would always come across much heavier live than they could on their records.

[agamerwholovesmetal]

3 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I'd probably call that stuff proto thrash, since thrash was the original extreme metal sub-genre. I've never thought of any of those 4 bands as being particularly extreme though, not even for 1980. I don't really see a direct link from nwobhm to black or death metal. You have to go through thrash first. There's really nothing besides Sabbath from before 1979 that I'd be willing to call heavy metal anyway, '79 - '80 that's right where 70's hard rock was transitioning into 80's heavy metal. But not extreme metal, that was a ways off still, so maybe I'm just missing what you're getting at. All these nwobhm bands are the kind of thing most of the 80's thrash originators grew up listening to in high school or just after, because that was the heaviest shit we had back then, along with Sabbath of course. But musically it's all still basically just hard rock on steroids afaic until you get to '83-'84. I think the reason that many albums from '80 - '81 and later sounded somewhat heavier than most of the 70's hard rock bands that had come before was more due to recording technology improvements which allowed them to capture a heavier sound on tape. Because before 1980 it was basically a given that most hard rock bands would always come across much heavier live than they could on their records.

when I wrote this, I was struggling to come up with a way to describe what I was thinking. maybe a better way to describe this is that these where influences on early extreme metal bands like venom and mercyful fate and eventually slayer and exodus when they came along. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

1 hour ago, agamerwholovesmetal said:

When I wrote this, I was struggling to come up with a way to describe what I was thinking. Maybe a better way to describe this is that these were influences on early extreme metal bands like Venom and Mercyful Fate and eventually Slayer and Exodus when they came along. 

Yeah I think it's been pretty well documented that the nwobhm or just British heavy metal in general was a major influence on the thrash metal that came just a few years later. As well as the traditional 70's hard rock bands that all of us old guys had grown up on: Sabbath, Zeppelin, Purple, Aerosmith, Thin Lizzy, AC/DC...and of course there were the hardcore punk bands of the early 80's like Discharge, GBH and the Exploited, which is where the extremity in thrash comes from. There were a lot less bands back then playing heavy music, so practically all of us metalheads from that first real metal generation who were born in the early 60's were pretty much listening to all the exact same bands in the late 70's into the early 80's. By '84 - '85 there were enough new bands playing different flavors of metal that people had the opportunity to start branching out and exploring different paths, and then it was no longer true that we were all mostly listening to all the exact same bands.

[Dead1]

Even Judas Priest songs like the Ripper and Rapid Fire as well as early Iron Maiden contributed to extreme metal.

I would say Venom is the band is starts extreme metal.  Welcome To Hell literally made everything else sound soft except the hardcore punk guys.

17 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

and of course there were the hardcore punk bands of the early 80's like Discharge, GBH and the Exploited, which is where the extremity in thrash comes from. 

Agreed.  Sex Pistols would have played a massive role here too.

 

Basically IMO whole of origin of extreme music comes down to 2 bands: Black Sabbath and Sex Pistols.  

[Nasty_Cabbage]

Eh. You're almost always going to end up splitting hairs with these sorts of conversations. You can say "Well it uses dark imagery"

"so...hard rock?"

"No, it's faster."

"so... still hard rock?"

"no, it uses distortion and the guitars are low accept for the solos."

"So... really hard rock?"

"No, it's got a sort of accelerated bluesy sound like Motorhead."

"Like the sort of pseudo-punk stuff or the stuff coming out of the UK?"

"No, punk went in a different direction. This stuff had overtly satanic imagery that influenced a whole generation of bands."

"So...hard rock?"

What's really interesting to me is when a group will reject a label that their fans categorize them under. There was a poorly maintained old venue down the way from my old job when I was living in the capitol that had long since ceased to be fiscally solvent, and every year toward the end of summer Molly Hatchet would come and play a show there. They were apparently long time friends of the owner who was this completely ancient old man, and the show was really more of an excuse to see his friends. In any case, I found out fairly quickly not to refer to Hatchet and metal in the same sentence or risk enduring a long diatribe about Frank Frazzeta's artwork and rock and blues and jam and god knows what else.

In any case I know that there's a number of these old hands in the music game who sort of feel they've been mislabeled by their fans. A lot of them say that, for them at least, they were just making rock, and don't really want to trouble themselves too much beyond that. It's just us metalheads, ever the fretful archivists, who get knotted up over this stuff.

Or there's a few older metalheads out there who will try to sneak glam bands in with their 80's heavy metal. They'll say that the way it was perceived at the time and in pop culture Quiet Riot, Twisted Sister, and Rush were all making the same type of music: "metal". That's it. I can't really refute this since I was about four years old at the end of the eighties, but I do have a hard time trying to see Journey and Accept through the same lense. I usually just try to imagine the sort of plate hurling shit fit Beethoven would have thrown if he'd heard Bartok and been told that they both composed "classical".

[FatherAlabaster]

Careful man, lumping Rush in with Quiet Riot and Twisted Sister might get you banned.

 

 

The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown is always a good look. Late 60s psych rock, flaming headgear, something like "corpse paint", nuns having fun, high wailing vocals. A precursor to your Kings Diamond if not your Priests Judas.

Fire:

Nightmare:

 

[Nasty_Cabbage]

2 hours ago, FatherAlabaster said:

Careful man, lumping Rush in with Quiet Riot and Twisted Sister might get you banned.

😆 Believe me, there are some items in my iTunes library that, if discovered, would require I turn in my metalhead card with all privileges immediately revoked.

[FatherAlabaster]

13 hours ago, Nasty_Cabbage said:

😆 Believe me, there are some items in my iTunes library that, if discovered, would require I turn in my metalhead card with all privileges immediately revoked.

Do tell

[GoatmasterGeneral]

21 hours ago, Dead1 said:

Even Judas Priest songs like the Ripper and Rapid Fire as well as early Iron Maiden contributed to extreme metal.

I would say Venom is the band is starts extreme metal.  Welcome To Hell literally made everything else sound soft except the hardcore punk guys.

Agreed.  Sex Pistols would have played a massive role here too.

 

Basically IMO whole of origin of extreme music comes down to 2 bands: Black Sabbath and Sex Pistols.  

Just like with the formation of any new sub-genre there were many 70's bands who contributed to the overall advancement of the heaviness of hard rock and helped push it over the line into heavy metal, and then onto extreme metal. I'll agree with you on Sabbath and the Pistols being two of the pillars, although I would have to add the Ramones. Musically they were a bit harder, faster and more "extreme" than the Pistols by 70's standards, especially live. They formed a year earier ('74) and dropped their album in '76, a year before the Pistols' record. Gotta say though I've always wondered what musical path the Pistols might have taken if they hadn't imploded on their first and only US tour less than 3 months after their first and only album had come out. One of the great debut albums in punk, and even just in rock history.

And of course we can't forget Motörhead who like the Sex Pistols formed in 1975. When talking about 70's bands, I don't think Motörhead's influence on the formation of thrash and the more extreme forms of metal could possibly be overstated. Motörhead made all the other 70's hard rock bands sound weak by comparison until Venom hit the scene. Venom formed in '78, but most of us who don't live 'oop north' near Newcastle didn't hear them until their first album dropped in Dec '81. 

Motörhead was also a major influence on hardcore punk, or more specifically on the direction some UK bands like Discharge and GBH and how they took the late '70's budding American hardcore punk sounds of bands like Black Flag, Middle Class and Bad Brains and heavied it up, making it quite a bit more extreme by the time they started putting their albums out in the early 80's. Early Discharge releases Why and Hear Nothing Say Nothing... still sound extreme by today's standards over 40 years later. Why came out April '81, 8 months before Welcome to Hell and was every bit as extreme.

I know most metalheads like to keep punk and metal separate as if they had nothing to do with each other, but imo bands like Motörhead, Venom and Discharge all exist in that space where metal and punk converge. So when we're talking about late 70's or very early 80's influences on extreme metal I think those were the three most extreme bands for their day.

 

21 hours ago, FatherAlabaster said:

The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown is always a good look. Late 60s psych rock, flaming headgear, something like "corpse paint", nuns having fun, high wailing vocals. A precursor to your Kings Diamond if not your Priests Judas.

Fire:

Nightmare:

 

If I didn't know better I would've thought it was Ghost!

[Dead1]

1 hour ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

eep punk and metal separate as if they had nothing to do with each other, but imo bands like Motörhead, Venom and Discharge all exist in that space where metal and punk converge. So when we're talking about late 70's or very early 80's influences on extreme metal I think those were the three most extreme bands for their day.

 

Totally agree.  

 

Every single interview I've read with every single early thrash metal and many early death metal pioneers shows they had as much appreciation for punk/hardcore as they did for metal.