bands you like but are suppose to hate

[RelentlessOblivion]

Actually I can understand the sentiment here. Many metalheads would be upfront in admitting they do not care for Soundgarden and bands like them. I would be one of those people if truth be told. As I said I don't buy into the "you should hate band x because..." notion which seems to be flung about far too liberally on the internet. The fact that I tend not to like many of the bands which tend to fall within this category isn't based on anything but my own opinion. At the same time there are many bands which are exceedingly popular with metalheads which I can not stand at all such as Cannibal Corpse and Burzum. Actually that gives me an idea for another thread.

[FatherAlabaster]

Indeed. Since when were Soundgarden a guilty pleasure?! If you were on about Cornell's solo R'n'B albums' date=' that I could understand. But Soundgarden? No fucking way![/quote'] I like what Dave Grohl had to say about it at South By Southwest -"Guilty pleasure? What about, just... pleasure?"

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: bands you like but are suppose to hate

What did you think of Dinosaurs? I didn't really like BGWTB till I got into Dinosaurs, and then for some reason it clicked for me. I'm glad they're developing a new take on their sound rather than just trying to relive the glory days. I wouldn't call their song structures "pop", at least not all the time; in fact a complaint of mine with them is that their songs are put together too awkwardly sometimes, and especially on the self titled album some of the songs are flat out lazy. But I must disagree with you about Layne's vocals. His studio work was phenomenal. I can understand how the sound quality might be off-putting to some people, but I would have thought you'd appreciate the true weirdness he had to offer. Dirt is in my top ten, and the unplugged video is kind of heartbreaking. Soundgarden, after seeing them live, I'd put on a whole different level from AIC. Their musicianship is top notch.Thayil is another oddball, and his riffs are deceptively simple. Their song arrangements are much more interesting than AIC. Maybe I just love these bands because I got into them during formative years, but I find it strange that you can have such an appreciation for Tool and not hear anything interesting in Soundgarden.

I haven't heard Dinosaurs, so I don't know. Black Gives Way to Blue surprised me though, Jerry's solo material breathed some life into what they kept from their older sound, and with the improvements on vocals, I can't complain. I don't hear anything phenomenal about Layne's vocals, just the same annoying tone that Eddie Vedder and other grungers were using at the time, and I find it highly irritating. Nothing like the clear and powerful vocals from Cornell, it makes me sad that his talents were more or less wasted in Soundgarden. They were probably the tightest grunge band musically, but musicianship and songwriting aren't the same thing. I find his riffs to be really uninspired, and since the bass and drums usually just follow him, they're every bit as boring regardless of how competent they may be. I don't hear any similarities to Tool either, Tool have always been a much darker and more progressive entity than either band. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[FatherAlabaster]

As with a lot of things, it comes down to taste. Soundgarden has always seemed refreshing and unique to me, and I generally give their songwriting top marks. They're one of the few bands I enjoy for their uplifting rather than depressive qualities. As far as grunge vocals, I know a few people who feel the same way you do - most of them had the misfortune to be hit with the slew of careerist imitators that jumped on the Seattle bandwagon. All of the top vocalists from that scene sound very distinct to me, and I'll put Jerry in there too fwiw. If you're talking about bands like STP or Bush, I can see where you're coming from. Not saying that Soundgarden is musically similar to Tool, but I hear just as many progressive tendencies in their music, and a stronger urge to experiment. I like old Tool, but I found their later stuff increasingly formulaic. For that matter, I love Maynard's voice now but I hated him in the 90s. Took me a while to work up an appreciation. I consider myself fortunate to have stayed away from the radio as a teenager, because I know a lot of my favorite bands got played to death and I'd probably hate them too. The vocals that really piss me off from that era are Chili Peppers and Green Day. Fuck I hate those guys.

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Re: bands you like but are suppose to hate Madness, definitley Madness.

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: bands you like but are suppose to hate

As with a lot of things, it comes down to taste. Soundgarden has always seemed refreshing and unique to me, and I generally give their songwriting top marks. They're one of the few bands I enjoy for their uplifting rather than depressive qualities. As far as grunge vocals, I know a few people who feel the same way you do - most of them had the misfortune to be hit with the slew of careerist imitators that jumped on the Seattle bandwagon. All of the top vocalists from that scene sound very distinct to me, and I'll put Jerry in there too fwiw. If you're talking about bands like STP or Bush, I can see where you're coming from. Not saying that Soundgarden is musically similar to Tool, but I hear just as many progressive tendencies in their music, and a stronger urge to experiment. I like old Tool, but I found their later stuff increasingly formulaic. For that matter, I love Maynard's voice now but I hated him in the 90s. Took me a while to work up an appreciation. I consider myself fortunate to have stayed away from the radio as a teenager, because I know a lot of my favorite bands got played to death and I'd probably hate them too. The vocals that really piss me off from that era are Chili Peppers and Green Day. Fuck I hate those guys.

It's interesting that you say that Tool's music became more formulaic and they seemed to experiment less than Soundgarden, I would definitely say the opposite. Tool continues to grow and evolve, always doing something new while retaining their core sound, much like Enslaved. Most of Soundgarden's less "normal" sounding stuff just sounds like a retreading of the more psychedelic paths of various 70's rock bands, whereas Tool's more atmospheric passages are all their own. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[RelentlessOblivion]

Aside from some weird DM and BM I'd say Tool is the weirdest, most experimental, band I've heard. I'm starting to appreciate their music more then I did though I still wouldn't say I like them.

[FatherAlabaster]

See, I really like them a lot. I'm not talking smack about Tool. I'm just comparing them in the following way - for me, their high point was Aenima. Soundgarden's high point was Superunknown. They've each got highly regarded, hard-hitting, complex drummers. They've each got distinctive, world-class vocalists who went on to other projects. They've each put out two albums since their "peak" (again, my opinion only) in the mid 90s. To me, Lateralus (which I do enjoy) is like a flattened-out Aenima - it doesn't have the low points or the high points. The actual songs aren't as compelling, and they're surrounded by a bunch of texture that doesn't really go anywhere. It sounds like they keep recycling the same scales and the same few sonic ideas. I suspect that, where I hear self-indulgent aimless dicking around, BAN hears the odd atmosphere that he seems to really enjoy in his favorite music, and so for him it works. Where I hear a song that's too long and doesn't seem to have a point, I'm guessing he hears progressive experimentation and evolution that he can sink his teeth into. BAN, I wouldn't presume to speak for you, I'm just guessing. Soundgarden retains much tighter song structure, which is something I find relevant and enjoyable, but within that they have a wide variety of melodies, odd chords, odd timing, and strange textures. It's to their credit that they can write recognizable rock songs that make this weird stuff sound straightforward. And with all their musical skill, they're not afraid to be simple. Where BAN hears boring retreads, I hear personal, unique music with a wide emotive and dynamic range made by guys who aren't afraid to leave their old ideas far behind - even if it means falling on their faces sometimes. There's much more to Soundgarden than there is to, say, Audioslave. I don't think every song is a gem, but that's kind of the point. Finally, I don't think it's an accident that most of my favorite albums by most of my favorite bands came out between 1992 and 1995. That's when I was really first developing my own taste in music, and discovering all kinds of new sounds, during those tender coming-of-age years that they make shitty movies about. Someone in a different time, place, and peer group would obviously have the same revelatory personal experiences with different music. That's why my list in the "albums that changed your life" thread looks like it does. Threads like this aren't about right and wrong, they're about what it's like where you live, or inside your head. All the more interesting because we're so far-flung, physically speaking. Eh, TL;DR.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Iced Earth would fit this category I suppose I mean the vocals have always been poor (even Ripper wasn't at his dynamic best) and their musicianship has gotten progressively worse since their peak on Burnt Offerings but for all that I still like most of what they've released

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: bands you like but are suppose to hate As I mentioned in the other thread, Lateralus was an important album for me, as it was the first album I really ever loved and immersed myself in. There are other albums that have progressed my tastes that I still like, but not as much, and others I don't like anymore at all, but a few albums continue to grow on me. Every time I listen to Lateralus I hear more, and the same can be said about Aenima or 10,000 Days, but Lateralus is still my favorite, and not just because of its initial impact on me. Not that Tool have released albums that I would consider less than stellar, but that to me is their darkest, heaviest, and most compelling musical statement, with Aenima's psychedelic fuzz and 10,000 Days' counterbalancing rock outs with poised atmosphere close behind. I like Opiate and Undertow too, but they're just not as deep, despite being a bit more aggressive. Try listening to Lateralus in Fibonacci sequence next time, with the remaining tracks tacked on to the end of the sequence in order, it gives the album a different feel, and I actually like the flow of it better that way. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[FatherAlabaster]

Tool's "Holy Gift", right? I've seen that on youtube. I'll check it out. I've actually been listening to Lateralus more since your response in that thread. It's growing on me. I bought it the day it was released and was initially really disappointed by it, and I've only put it on infrequently over the years. 10000 Days has yet to make a positive impression on me. For that matter, Soundgarden's "Down On The Upside" only has three or four songs I like, the self-titled Alice In Chains has only recently begun appealing to me (though I love the unplugged MTV video), and though I think Pearl Jam's first two albums are amazing, I think most of what they've done since then is garbage. The point I was trying to make is that, regardless of whether or not someone personally enjoys those bands, I don't think anyone could say that you're "supposed" to hate them in the same way that anyone in polite society is expected to despise, say, Vanilla Ice or Hootie And The Blowfish.

[RelentlessOblivion]

I would say many metalheads actually would say they hate grunge as a whole. I certainly do. It's lazy songwriting coupled with bad vocals and pseudo-aggression.

[FatherAlabaster]

Most of the metalheads (and most of the musicians in general) who I know really like Alice In Chains, Nirvana, and Soundgarden. But then most of the metalheads I know are from the USA, and a few who grew up in the UK, and we're all between 28 and 40. Which is why I keep saying it's regional and generational. Go figure. If you guys think the songwriting is "lazy", you'd only be doing yourselves a favor by learning to see beyond the song structure and figuring out how those songs actually work. Even a simple song with a simple melody can have a lot to offer. And just because a metal song has more moving parts doesn't make it any better, as I know you know. The phrase "lazy songwriting coupled with bad vocals and pseudo-aggression" could also be applied to lots of metal bands, including some bands we all actually like.

[JBaker]

^^What he said, basically. I think you need to appreciate different genres for different things. Grunge is distinct from Metal. Just because the melodies aren't overly complex doesn't mean it's "lazy". It's the fact that it's rooted in Punk Rock; a genre not exactly known for its huge, complex soundscapes. Going into Grunge expecting Technical Death Metal-styled song structures means you're kind of missing the point. I get why people might see the pseudo-aggression part, but I think that's mainly because aggression is just one of the emotions that come from the music. Whereas Extreme Metal is focused almost exclusively centred on aggression, Grunge also places a great deal of emphasis on depression and more general "angst". I guess its reputation of being for spoilt middle-class lazy suburban teens might make the emotions that fuel the genre seem slightly disingenuous (kind of like Nu Metal, ironically). But, there is some great music to find f you look beyond that. Also, not all Grunge is that simple. Nirvana, yes... but with Alice in Chains, you will get more complex structures.

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: bands you like but are suppose to hate It's not that I hate grunge, but it didn't exist for very long before becoming a self parody on MTV that had more to do with pop music than punk or metal. Melvins are widely acknowledged as the first grunge band, and even after having gone through many stylistic changes, exploring sludge, drone, and bluesy rock, they have retained their artistic integrity. Slundgarden didn't really possess a traditional grunge sound, having been around since before it was popularized, but weren't really all that metal either, aside from a few songs. I don't really care where they fall, but other than songs like Rusty Cage, I don't hear much on offer for me. AiC were a sleaze/glam band before becoming grunge, and despite people claiming that they were more metallic, I don't hear it, and their songs weren't to my liking, especially when complimented by vocals that I can't stand. Other than Melvins, the only grunge bands I can think of that I marginally enjoy, but don't own anything from, are Tad and Fudge Tunnel. Both were heavy and raw, without the poppiness that dumbed down the movement as a whole. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[FatherAlabaster]

The AIC you're thinking of was probably the original Alice 'N Chainz (not the same band), and there was even an early band called Sleaze that I think Layne was a part of - but their demo material as the band we all know and (insert feeling here) was the stuff that wound up on Facelift, and they had a few songs at that point that they wanted to put on the debut, scrapping the older material, but that wound up on Dirt because of label pressure on Facelift. At least that's what I gleaned from interviews, etc. Hard to call anything on Facelift "glam" or "sleaze", it's more just rock with a lot of blues influence. I only really get into the first half of that album anyway, but I don't think one can say that their "roots" are glam. Pantera, yes; AIC, no. Either way, if you don't like it, I mean hey, whatever. You're not alone. Don't know if you've ever heard Truly, but they had one album that was pretty cool, oddly atmospheric 50's inflected grunge. Their vocalist couldn't really sing, but that was kind of ok...

[RelentlessOblivion]

There's nothing wrong with simple song structures FA it's just that with grunge there isn't anything in the sound which I find appealing. Even if the genre hadn't become basically a vessel for mainstream bandwagoners to hang their hats on during the nineties killing any credibility the genre may have had it is still something which does not, and probably never will, do anything for me. Of course the flaws I pointed out can be easily levelled at Black Sabbath, Motorhead and countless other metal bands (and not without good reason) and whilst we may like such bands I am under no illusion that said bands actually suck at what they do.

[emprorzurg]

I'm not going to lie, it's been a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine recently, but Avenged Sevenfold's latest album, it's just good fun to listen to. PLEASE DON'T HURT ME Still hate their metalcore shit though

[RelentlessOblivion]

Don't worry mate you'll cop it but only in good fun Don't know if I'd say this is a band I like but shouldn't or an album but I really dig Draconian's "A Rose For The Apocalypse"

[NTNR]

Here's a list of the bands I like that people are spazs about: Poison Dokken Ratt Warrant The Cure Garbage The Cranberries

[FatherAlabaster]

spazs

How do you pronounce this? Isn't it a rude word in Czech or something? Do you get into The Gathering, or any later Katatonia? I like a lot of that shit...

[NTNR]

Oh the gathering....their first album was incredible, the second was laughable then Annake joined and the two following releases were just awesome then they got high and just sort of wandered off. How to Measure a Planet is awful. if_then_else took me a while to get into but I love it. Souvenirs is about half good. Home sucks. West Pole is alright and the latest singles I've heard have made me want to pick their stuff up, however, I hate that they don't play metal any more. Trip Hop is alright for what it is (as a Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan I've grown to like that style a fair bit in fact) but I can only tolerate it for so long. Katatonia only really upset me with Viva Emptiness. That album was a slap in the face. Brave Murder Day & Discouraged Ones are two of the best doom metal albums I've ever heard. Their simplicity, emotion and originality really struck some heavy chords with me. Last Fair Deal Gone Down was their last great album. The Great Cold Distance was a nice comeback but Night is the New Day sucked. For a band that claims to push the boundaries of what they do they sure do like repeating themselves. I've yet to bother with Dead End Kings because I've heard a few tracks off it and wasn't impressed. So yes, I do like both bands to a point. It's the same with Anathema. I LOVE their first 5 recordings but they lost me at Alternative 4. Judgement was surprisingly good but wears thin after multiple listenings. A Fine Day to Exit is heavy beatles worship (another band I loathe with a hatred that doesn't have words to adequate describe) and a Natural Disaster kinda sucks. Their obscene pink floyd worship (another like the beatles) insults and repels me. I haven't bothered with anything after Hindsight.

[FatherAlabaster]

Of the Gathering, I like the stuff with Anneke the best, and I have a hard time choosing between Mandylion and if_then_else. I agree the ones directly leading up to it weren't as good - it's like they were trying to figure out how to write that album. Haven't heard anything they've done recently, after Anneke left I lost interest. As far as Katatonia, Discouraged Ones was the first one I got - right when it came out - and it's one of my favorites, though Tonight's Decision is the one that really got me into their "new" sound. Loved Last Fair Deal. VE took a while to grow on me, and while I preferred their older, less polished sound, I think Great Cold Distance might be their best. I started kind of liking NITND after hearing it at a bar a few times; Dead End Kings is actually a lot better though softer. None of that forced "heaviness". I think Anders basically stopped writing songs and let Jonas take over, which isn't entirely bad, I love old October Tide, but I agree they've gotten a bit repetitive and fallen off. I saw them a couple of years ago and they played Chrome into We Must Bury You just like on the album, except with real drums... ah it was so fucking cool. One of my favorite live moments.

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: bands you like but are suppose to hate Katatonia basically ends with Sounds of Decay for me. I can still appreciate Discouraged Ones as a lighter rock alternative to BMD, but after that they do little for me. They were also one of the most dull live bands I've ever seen. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[FatherAlabaster]

They've gotten better live with the most recent lineup. They were uniformly disappointing when I saw them before that. Sounds Of Decay rules. But I really have to say they've been one of my favorite bands for about sixteen years now and I don't dislike any of their material. I'm a fanboy. @NTNR, I tend to agree with you about Anathema as well, although I pretty much cut them off after Silent Enigma. I found Judgement tolerable. I'm surprised you don't like Into The Pandemonium, Silent Enigma took a lot of cues from that album (though it's more melodic and digestible).