Overrated

[BlutAusNerd]

Yes they gave us the single greatest black metal album in De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas.

As far as I'm concerned, this is all that really needs to be said. Even if you're not into Grand Declaration of War, Ordo ad Chao, or their other later offerings, that should be all it takes to grant them "legendary" status. Look at other bands who changed the shape of metal with just 1 album who are also revered as legends, Lykathea Aflame, dISEMBOWELMENT, Thergothon, Winter, Slaughter, Demilich, etc..., I think it boils down to focusing on successes rather than failures, perceived or otherwise. Think about Celtic Frost, for instance. Nobody thinks about Cold Lake when they see that name, regardless of how much they hate it, they think of their iconic, genre defining work.

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[Ecthelion]

1 hour ago, BlutAusNerd said:

As far as I'm concerned, this is all that really needs to be said. Even if you're not into Grand Declaration of War, Ordo ad Chao, or their other later offerings, that should be all it takes to grant them "legendary" status.

 

The issue I've always had with them is that they were largely a band that achieved this status prior to releasing the album through a bunch of ridiculous antics prior to '94 while their contemporaries (Darkthrone, Immortal, Sabbat (JP), Samael, Burzum, etc.) were already releasing full albums. 

We should be thanking our lucky stars that Mayhem even managed to release De Mysteriis in the first place given all the nonsense that went on with its members. Otherwise, all that would be left is a surprisingly excellent live album and a somewhat influential EP to the band's name. 

So, while it may be among the formative albums, to pretend like it was on the bleeding edge isn't exactly accurate. 

[BlutAusNerd]

The issue I've always had with them is that they were largely a band that achieved this status prior to releasing the album through a bunch of ridiculous antics prior to '94 while their contemporaries (Darkthrone, Immortal, Sabbat (JP), Samael, Burzum, etc.) were already releasing full albums. 
We should be thanking our lucky stars that Mayhem even managed to release De Mysteriis in the first place given all the nonsense that went on with its members. Otherwise, all that would be left is a surprisingly excellent live album and a somewhat influential EP to the band's name. 
So, while it may be among the formative albums, to pretend like it was on the bleeding edge isn't exactly accurate. 

While I won't try to justify or forgive ridiculous antics from any band, Mayhem was different in that they lived up to the hype. Their actual release output may have been limited, but the fact is that EVERYONE else in Norway, and nearly everyone else in Scandinavia in general was playing death metal at the time when Mayhem was playing the songs from De Mysteriis before live audiences in Europe and converting band members en masse. The whole scene posturing and extracurricular bullshit in which they were engaging, silly as it may have been, helped to being a lot of musicians into the fold like moths to a flame. The live album you mentioned was recorded in 1990, before any of the bands you mentioned had released a full length, or even formed in Immortal and Burzum's case.

As such, I don't think it's possible to overstate their influence. While releases would have garnered them more fans early on, their influence was spread in other ways. To say that they weren't "on the bleeding edge" seems disingenuous.

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[Requiem]

4 hours ago, Ekthelion said:

The issue I've always had with them is that they were largely a band that achieved this status prior to releasing the album through a bunch of ridiculous antics prior to '94 while their contemporaries (Darkthrone, Immortal, Sabbat (JP), Samael, Burzum, etc.) were already releasing full albums. 

We should be thanking our lucky stars that Mayhem even managed to release De Mysteriis in the first place given all the nonsense that went on with its members. Otherwise, all that would be left is a surprisingly excellent live album and a somewhat influential EP to the band's name. 

So, while it may be among the formative albums, to pretend like it was on the bleeding edge isn't exactly accurate. 

Firstly, Mayhem would have had 'De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas' out a lot earlier if it weren't for Dead's suicide, which set them back at least 18 months as they searched for a new singer and got things sorted. That was no small 'antic' or 'nonsense'. Then Euronymous was actually murdered by a madman, further delaying the album. And when it was finally released it was revealed to be a masterpiece. I think this is a miraculous outcome. 

Rewinding the clock slightly, Mayhem basically invented Norwegian black metal, and they had a cult status for 'Deathcrush' (1987) and then their live shows (1988-1991), one of which culminated in 'Live in Leipzig' which is incredible. So musically they were really the first Norwegian band to have a full release on the market, as well as demos and live material. 

Scene-wise, they also wrote letters to people all over the world, fashioned the modern image of second wave black metal, and gathered a scene together. They brought a seriousness and philosophy to music (however foolish or misguided some of us might see it as) that had a huge impact on how black metal bands would view themselves and their objectives. Mayhem's decisions echoed out around the globe. 

Furthermore, Mayhem were able to rebuild from the ashes and create albums that many people revere, like 'Grand Declaration of War', which completely re-wrote the template. They've been a consistent force, touring, pushing boundaries, while also embracing and honouring their past. 

If anything, I think Mayhem are underrated! Ok, perhaps not, but I think considering their musical output and impact on black metal's second wave, they deserve everything they get. 

 

[RelentlessOblivion]

I'm not taking anything away from Mayhem. They were hugely important in pushing black metal forwards and DMDS well what needs saying really? I do also enjoy what they've done since. I just think perhaps they're a little over-rated. I'll put it this way: What most Mayhem fans want to hear is more of DMDS (who could blame them). By contrast what most Darkthrone fans want to hear is more of Blaze, Funeral Moon, and Hunger.

[BlutAusNerd]

I'm not taking anything away from Mayhem. They were hugely important in pushing black metal forwards and DMDS well what needs saying really? I do also enjoy what they've done since. I just think perhaps they're a little over-rated. I'll put it this way: What most Mayhem fans want to hear is more of DMDS (who could blame them). By contrast what most Darkthrone fans want to hear is more of Blaze, Funeral Moon, and Hunger.

If Darkthrone had released even 1 album that was as good as De Mysteriis, then I could back up this assertion. However, good as they were, they simply don't hold a candle to the genius of that album.

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[Ecthelion]

1 hour ago, BlutAusNerd said:

If Darkthrone had released even 1 album that was as good as De Mysteriis, then I could back up this assertion. However, good as they were, they simply don't hold a candle to the genius of that album.

Under a Funeral Moon and A Blaze in the Northern Sky already exist though.

[BlutAusNerd]

Under a Funeral Moon already exists though. Well, that's my favorite of the three prominent ones. Blaze still measures up quite well too. 

I wouldn't say they aren't great albums, I just don't think they're as good as De Mysteriis. Of course, I'm biased because I don't think anything under the black metal banner is, but Darkthrone may not have even released those albums were it not for Mayhem's influence in converting death metal Norway to black metal Norway.

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[Ecthelion]

6 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

I wouldn't say they aren't great albums, I just don't think they're as good as De Mysteriis. Of course, I'm biased because I don't think anything under the black metal banner is, but Darkthrone may not have even released those albums were it not for Mayhem's influence in converting death metal Norway to black metal Norway.

I just find the idea that Darkthrone's oeuvre from 1992 to 1994 can't at least match De Mysteriis (due to the range of sounds they covered) rather ridiculous when they had already released two seminal works while Mayhem were busy stabbing each other and photographing each other's remains. Besides, I'm not arguing that they necessarily have to be better. However, to say that they don't even hold a candle to De Mysteriis is a ridiculous notion. 

[BlutAusNerd]

I just find the idea that Darkthrone's oeuvre from 1992 to 1994 can't at least match De Mysteriis (due to the range of sounds they covered) rather ridiculous when they had already released two seminal works while Mayhem were busy stabbing each other and photographing each other's remains. Besides, I'm not arguing that they necessarily have to be better. However, to say that they don't even hold a candle to De Mysteriis is a ridiculous notion. 

On a per album basic, no, I don't think they can. Taken together? Perhaps. Blaze is magnificent and Under a Funeral Moon is pretty good, but if you want to talk about overrated, Transylvanian Hunger is thy name. To take their wicked, spontaneous, and energetic formula and strip it down to some dull chord strumming with bland drums and vocals somehow makes a masterpiece? I don't see how. It's a lot like Slaughter of the Soul in that it dumbed down the bands sound, and somehow garnered them a lot of attention while forsaking a lot of what made them special in the first place, spawning countless (and mostly useless) imitators in the process. The difference is that Transylvanian is still a decent album, but it pretty well deflates the status of Darkthrone's supposed "unholy trilogy". That isn't to say that Mayhem wasn't without missteps, but the point that I'm trying to make is that Mayhem isn't overrated. Darkthrone isn't either on the whole, but to downgrade basically the flagship band at the core of a fertile scene from their legendary status seems preposterous to me.

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[Ecthelion]

11 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

On a per album basic, no, I don't think they can. Taken together? Perhaps. Blaze is magnificent and Under a Funeral Moon is pretty good, but if you want to talk about overrated, Transylvanian Hunger is thy name. To take their wicked, spontaneous, and energetic formula and strip it down to some dull chord strumming with bland drums and vocals somehow makes a masterpiece? I don't see how. It's a lot like Slaughter of the Soul in that it dumbed down the bands sound, and somehow garnered them a lot of attention while forsaking a lot of what made them special in the first place, spawning countless (and mostly useless) imitators in the process. The difference is that Transylvanian is still a decent album, but it pretty well deflates the status of Darkthrone's supposed "unholy trilogy".

Transylvanian Hunger is definitely the most overrated of the five albums that I consider their peak with Total Death being the unsung classic of the five. I'd agree with the Slaughter of the Soul comparison. 

[BlutAusNerd]

Transylvanian Hunger is definitely the most overrated of the five albums that I consider their peak with Total Death being the unsung classic of the five. I'd agree with the Slaughter of the Soul comparison. 

Do you exclude Soulside Journey from this peak, and if so, why?

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[MattCantina]

13 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

Do you exclude Soulside Journey from this peak, and if so, why?

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Perhaps because it's a death metal album, though it still slays

[BlutAusNerd]

Perhaps because it's a death metal album, though it still slays

Depending on what day it is, I'll grab that as my favorite of theirs. Like most Norwegian death metal, it's incredible.

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[Requiem]

2 hours ago, Ekthelion said:

I just find the idea that Darkthrone's oeuvre from 1992 to 1994 can't at least match De Mysteriis (due to the range of sounds they covered) rather ridiculous when they had already released two seminal works while Mayhem were busy stabbing each other and photographing each other's remains. Besides, I'm not arguing that they necessarily have to be better. However, to say that they don't even hold a candle to De Mysteriis is a ridiculous notion. 

This has somehow turned into a Darkthrone vs Mayhem discussion, when the conversation was simply whether Mayhem were overrated or not. I'm not complaining though, because it's an interesting discussion. 

For the record, I happen to love the unholy trinity albums, including 'Transilvanian Hunger', perhaps because I like 'melodic' music that builds an atmosphere on repetition and simple structures. So for me we're kind of comparing two of metal's greatest bands at their greatest moments, and I don't think either are overrated during this time. 

However, I certainly feel that Darkthrone remain an overrated band currently given the bland make-it-up-as-you-go, paint-by-numbers albums that they've been making in the last 15 years or so. Almost unlistenable to my ears. Even 'Arctic Thunder' is blander than my mum's meatloaf and about as exciting. I share your appreciation of 'Total Death' though - what a great album. For me, it's their final great one. 

And I want to echo BAN's comment that if it wasn't for Euronymous and Fenris being a little Helvete fanboy, there wouldn't have been any 'A Blaze in the Northern Sky' and they'd still be playing life-affirming death metal in jogging suits. Burzum, Immortal, Darkthrone, Gorgoroth? Thank Euronymous and Mayhem. Hail. 666. 

[Ecthelion]

2 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

Do you exclude Soulside Journey from this peak, and if so, why?

I excluded from the discussion because it's not black metal but it's pretty great death metal, if you want my opinion on that. 

 

1 hour ago, Requiem said:

make-it-up-as-you-go, paint-by-numbers albums that they've been making in the last 15 years or so.

"Hey guys, we too can Agent Steel/Manowar!" - Fenriz since 2008

[BlutAusNerd]

"Hey guys, we too can Agent Steel/Manowar!" - Fenriz since 2008

I can get into their modern stuff. Not as well as their old stuff, of course, but I have yet to hear a Darkthrone album that I didn't like to one degree or another. Lots of people seem to like deriding them for their retro aspirations of late, but it's not as though they don't still sound like Darkthrone.

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[Requiem]

1 hour ago, BlutAusNerd said:

I can get into their modern stuff. Not as well as their old stuff, of course, but I have yet to hear a Darkthrone album that I didn't like to one degree or another. Lots of people seem to like deriding them for their retro aspirations of late, but it's not as though they don't still sound like Darkthrone.

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I don't deride them for their retro aspirations, I deride them for what seems like their complete lack of quality control when it comes to their riffs. It feels like they spend about an afternoon writing and then they literally record everything they've written. Maybe that's in the no-nonsense spirit of metal that Fenriz is going for, but I find that it means one unstimulating song after the next. And as my wife knows, I require plenty of stimulation. 

[BlutAusNerd]

I don't deride them for their retro aspirations, I deride them for what seems like their complete lack of quality control when it comes to their riffs. It feels like they spend about an afternoon writing and then they literally record everything they've written. Maybe that's in the no-nonsense spirit of metal that Fenriz is going for, but I find that it means one unstimulating song after the next. And as my wife knows, I require plenty of stimulation. 

I don't think so. Some of F.O.A.D. sounded haphazard, but they also had an album written to be released after The Underground Resistance that they scrapped because they weren't happy with it, so it's not as though there isn't some measure of quality control. Trust me when I saw that I'm a huge retro-metal skeptic, especially of the White Wizzard, Holy Grail, Visigoth, etc... style over substance mould that seems to miss the point of playing heavy metal because they're so busy trying to play by the rules. Darkthrone's newer albums are kind of like the guys in Sabbat doing Metalucifer, old black metal dudes paying homage to the metal that inspired them to take it up in the first place.

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[Requiem]

2 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

I don't think so. Some of F.O.A.D. sounded haphazard, but they also had an album written to be released after The Underground Resistance that they scrapped because they weren't happy with it, so it's not as though there isn't some measure of quality control. Trust me when I saw that I'm a huge retro-metal skeptic, especially of the White Wizzard, Holy Grail, Visigoth, etc... style over substance mould that seems to miss the point of playing heavy metal because they're so busy trying to play by the rules. Darkthrone's newer albums are kind of like the guys in Sabbat doing Metalucifer, old black metal dudes paying homage to the metal that inspired them to take it up in the first place.

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The album they scrapped must have been bloody awful, and a terrible waste of an afternoon. 

[BlutAusNerd]

And I want to echo BAN's comment that if it wasn't for Euronymous and Fenris being a little Helvete fanboy, there wouldn't have been any 'A Blaze in the Northern Sky' and they'd still be playing life-affirming death metal in jogging suits.

I forgot to address this earlier, but life-affirming? I know the jogging suit thing was Euronymous style hyperbole, but that's not how I remember Soulside Journey's lyrics sounding...

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[Requiem]

46 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

 

 

I forgot to address this earlier, but life-affirming? I know the jogging suit thing was Euronymous style hyperbole, but that's not how I remember Soulside Journey's lyrics sounding...

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Yeah it was a bit of a joke. The Euronymous saying was that he hated “life-affirming death metal” by bands that wear “jogging suits”. 

Soulside’s a really good album. I should give it a spin actually, it’s been a while.