weakest link

[serpiko]

My goal is to get the thickest heaviest sound possible, something super raw and unrefined, I want to push my band to the limit in terms of Doom Metal, ultra slow and low and obviously dark and sinister. The problem is that my equipment doesn't satisfy me, plus somehow is very "moody", some days is almost there but some others is totally crap. I would like to upgrade my rig but I don' t where to start, what do you guys think I should change immediately? What is the weakest link? My max budget is around 1000 €, but if I can get away with it for much much less I'd be happy. Here is all I have: - Ibanez RGD420z - not happy with it, sooner or later will have to go, but not sure if she has to go on this round, if she IS the weakest link so to say - Cabotron 130 c - amp with Cabotron 4 12 inch speakers - vintage 150 w full valve italian amp built in the 70s, cool and the loudest thing ever created by mankind, but never serviced since 20 years (minimum) - Korg AX 300G multieffect - crappy digital thing? - DOD American Metal FX56 distortion pedal - I actually just rediscovered it So what do you guys think I should get as soon as for my intended sound? A proper guitar like a Gibson SG baritone or a proper amp like a Laney or a Marshall or get some expert to check my Cabotron and then sell the multieffect and get some serious Fuzz pedal? Or something else?

[FatherAlabaster]

I'd love a Gibson baritone. I'm really happy with the tone of my Steinberger baritone, but it sucks to play. If you can afford it, I'd say go for it. You'll never regret getting a good instrument. However, if you like the feel of the Ibanez, you might consider upgrading the pickups. Gibson makes some fantastic pickups, my favorite being the 498-T, and Bareknuckle and Seymour Duncan are other brands I've been very happy with. I'm not familiar with that amp, but it might be gold. Does it need service? Is it producing odd noises? A professional retubing might be a good idea, but won't likely solve all of your tone issues. Do yourself a favor and get rid of the effects pedal and the boss distortion, they'll shit all over your tone. If your amp has a vintage sort of warm crunch to it, you can tighten it up really nicely with a Maxon OD-9 overdrive, and MXR makes some really solid distortion pedals for not a lot of money. I use the Maxon OD-9 with the tone and level all the way up, but the distortion all the way down (basically as a boost) into my MXR Distortion III, when I'm using my vintage Traynor amp, and I get a great fuzzy crunch with a decent amount of articulation and transient response. My problem with the classic fuzz pedals like the Electro-Harmonix Big Muff is their lack of clarity. But maybe that would work for you; it's important to experiment. Play as much different stuff as possible. Do you have any friends that could lend you pedals to try?

[serpiko]

I don't like the feeling of the Ibanez, so most likely I will sell it, unless I decide that I will not get another Baritone but a regular SG/flying V/Les Paul to use as a workhorse and use the Ibanez only for the songs where I need to go ultra low with the tuning. I an attempt to minimise the effects and maximise the valve amp output I've recently tried a Swollen Pickle Fuzz pedal, seemed great in the music shop but sucked big time in our rehearsal room so I gave it back. The only guy I can ask for trying out his stuff is the other guitarist of my band, he has huge Orange, and a Russian Big muff together with tons of other pedals, but I think I must service the old Cabotron before or just get a new amp. I've tried a Marshall JVM 410h and I liked it, but I am scared to spend 950 € (with a nice tempting discount) without trying more stuff before.

[serpiko]

Thank you Father Alabaster for the tips on the MXR and Maxon, I will try to give it a go. Regarding the big old tube amp, yes is making very often a loud buzz and the potentiometers have seen better days, the valves might be 40 years old. So now that I am thinking about it maybe the biggest question here is to restore it or to get something new. This old Cabotron are pretty rare but I have no idea how good they are. On a good day it does sound very warm and with huge basses, but lately I had trouble mixing my sound with my band. The base frequency of my amp are overlapping too mutch with the base, if I turn them down (via odd EQ gauges) it sounds crap, everything seems to be getting even worst now that the other guitarist is using a nice Orange instead of the crappy combo solid state Sunn he was using previously.

[FatherAlabaster]

Orange makes great amps. A Marshall JCM 800 or 900 with a good overdrive in front can sound fantastic. Laney is excellent. You might find a used amp for a decent price. Those old amps are not as flexible in terms of EQ, but your first step should be to get it serviced anyway - then at least you can sell it for a better price. As you've discovered, it really is all about blending in with the rest of the live band. Try an overdrive, a compressor, or distortion in front to shave off some of the frequencies you don't want and tighten up your sound. Listen carefully, a good pedal won't take anything away from your tone. As far as guitars, if you like low tunings go ahead and get a baritone. You can tune down to C pretty reliably with a regular guitar, but you'll have intonation issues and the lower you go the worse it'll get. Right now I'm in D standard, which is pushing the intonation on my Gibson tune o matic bridge to its limits, but I've been as low as A standard/drop G on my baritone with no problems. If I could afford another guitar, it would probably be a Gibson baritone.

[serpiko]

I think I will follow your advice and service the big old beast and in the meantime get rid of the multieffect and get some serious (analog) pedals. But first I will start with a proper guitar, Gibson SG, Flying V, Les Paul or SG Baritone are the candidates

[FatherAlabaster]

Get the SG baritone, man, it looks great, comes with awesome pickups, made for low tunings... no contest there. Standard SGs aren't that fun for me, they're unbalanced and the neck tends to drop towards the ground as a result. Just play a few and see which one you like best. Good luck.

[serpiko]

I must admit the SG baritone is my favorite right now, the only thing that bothers me is that once I've tried an SG and a Les Paul on the same day in the same amp and I was impressed about how different the tone was and how much richer the Les Paul and nicer was. Stupidly enough the only thing I didn' t check was the tone settings on both guitars, so I must do the test again.

[GorboGorboze]

I'm about to look up transient response, but figured I'd ask you all about it as well so as to be social. What is transient response? edit- Wikipedia was not much help. I have a weird digital peddle for my bass that makes a complicated sound with each note played loudly but only if the previous note had enough volume and the time to complete the weird effect. Could that be considered a transient response time issue?

[FatherAlabaster]

I must admit the SG baritone is my favorite right now' date=' the only thing that bothers me is that once I've tried an SG and a Les Paul on the same day in the same amp and I was impressed about how different the tone was and how much richer the Les Paul and nicer was. Stupidly enough the only thing I didn' t check was the tone settings on both guitars, so I must do the test again.[/quote'] Setup is a big part of that, as well as string brand/gauge, and there's no guarantee that the pickups were the same either. There are a lot of variables. The SG standard and baritone versions don't have much in common aside from body shape. You may want to have a look at ESP's LTD baritones, also, they have several models. And I really like my Steinberger; since I replaced the pickups it's the best-sounding guitar I've ever played, though there are some issues that make it not the best for live situations. That does sound like a transient-based effect - is it like an EHX Bassballs or something? I've never liked effects like that, too much of a one-trick pony for me. Transients are initial sounds (like pick or stick attack, or certain vocal noises) that are generally high-frequency and don't last for very long, the merest fraction of a second. Think of the click in the back of your throat when you pronounce the letter "K". Whether or not (or in what way) those quick, high-frequency sounds are translated through your entire signal chain (including a microphone, if you're recording - this is called "compliance") has a lot to do with our perception of clarity, and it's why condenser mics - which are more compliant than dynamics, generally speaking - are usually used for recording acoustic guitars, vocals, and drum overheads. There are exceptions, of course. Anyway, transients... yeah. Hope that answers your question.

[GorboGorboze]

thanks Alabaster, The peddle is a digiteck product and calls it's self Bass synth wah: bass envelope filter. I have just a few peddles and the others are analog, but I enjoy the uber synthetic vocal quality of this peddle. I am wicked ignorant and do not know what EHX Bassballs is. You always seem to forget that I was raised by back-to-the-landers, and not allowed to eat sugar or watch TV until the age of ten. Anyway you should go and rectify the wikipedia article, which I don't think you will, because I believe I recall you do not like wikipedia, but what you've written on the subject is understandable and usefull so thanks. Serpico, I love your stated intentions regarding tone and such regarding sinister and raw and all.

[FatherAlabaster]

No, I'm not a member of the anti-Wikipedia faction. They're an incredibly useful source. That their metal-related information is considered to be of such low repute speaks more to the quality of the sources than the value of the site. The Bassballs, by Electro-Harmonix, is similar to that pedal of yours, at least in concept. I haven't heard the Digitech version. And I was raised by hippies, grew up living in an ashram (for a while anyway), and didn't have a TV in the house till I was eight, so I guess I can sympathize with your plight.

[SOVTEKslave]

All tube heads are the best way to get volume + depth, the Marshall JCM 800 is a staple in the amp world & common enough to find a used one for a decent price. That's where I would start. As mentioned before, Laney amps make killer shit too, & it's like a poor man's Marshall... & Father Alabaster is right with the Maxon pedal! They made tube screamers for Ibanez for a long time (when they were still good) but still make those same pedals today. I believe Ibanez kind of bought out Maxon, actually. I know Ibanez makes their own pedals NOW, & they're garbage. I've never tried the Maxon OD-9, but I have an OD-808 & it brings out everything good in whatever amp I'm playing out of. I could imagine the OD-9 is stunning as well.