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dilatedmind

Male chauvinism in Metal

146 posts in this topic

I asked myself this question once.... I looked and around and saw what types of music, lyric topics, and imagery attract the average female,,, and my question was answered.

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40 minutes ago, Idromos247 said:

I asked myself this question once.... I looked and around and saw what types of music, lyric topics, and imagery attract the average female,,, and my question was answered.

The "average female", huh? Care to expand on this at all?

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I asked myself this question once.... I looked and around and saw what types of music, lyric topics, and imagery attract the average female,,, and my question was answered.

 

The "average" male metalhead is far more cringeworthy and stereotypically irritating.

 

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

 

 

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16 hours ago, Idromos247 said:

I asked myself this question once.... I looked and around and saw what types of music, lyric topics, and imagery attract the average female,,, and my question was answered.

???

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18 hours ago, Idromos247 said:

I asked myself this question once.... I looked and around and saw what types of music, lyric topics, and imagery attract the average female,,, and my question was answered.

This needs expanding upon.  There's a very tricky undertone to this post that I hope I am just misreading, so I am respectfully asking you to expand on this otherwise clumsy post please.

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5 hours ago, MacabreEternal said:

This needs expanding upon.  There's a very tricky undertone to this post that I hope I am just misreading, so I am respectfully asking you to expand on this otherwise clumsy post please.

 

6 hours ago, natassja7 said:

???

I had asked myself If metal was chauvinistic

But after looking around I realized that the average (not all) American females due to pop cultural are attracted to music with certain images, lyrical topics, and styles. Metal is generally opposite of all those things (unless we talking about Glam). Metal is underground and does not appeal to the average of either sex, but it also does not appeal to as many woman as men.

 So I think metal is not chauvinistic, and just overpopulated by men.

And I'm speaking from the population of woman that I've met in my area in my life. There might be a town somewhere that has more woman that like metal. But most woman don't want to listen to music with such aggressive tones and gory lyrics.

 

 

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Read the below paragraph with a sense of humour...unless you like getting offended and all pissy off!

One thing that metal and goth have in common is that both scenes have a high ratio of one specific gender...in metal it is generally male and in the goth scene, at least in the past, it is generally female. Which meant that both ended up dating eachother despite their mutual "hatred" of the other person' s taste in music and clothing. Example: metal guy to goth girl " why the hell shave off your eyebrows just to draw some new ones one" or goth girl to metal guy " you would look great wearing eye liner. Frost wears eyeliner"...metal guy "No!"

The above is a very crude example and yes...a joke!!! But it was a joke that I and a freind came up with one night at a club, when we were sitting near a table full of...single metal guys and ditto goth women looking a bit confused and shy kinda a "Soooooo...do you like Star Treck?" mode but at the same time eyeing eachother.

But no,  I have never experienced male chauvinism in the metal scene myself. I have encountered misconceptions about metal women, yes, but I doubt there were meant as an insult. But no, not all women in the metal scene like ballads...in fact I hate them! The only time I felt excluded in the metal scene was during my first encounter with it at a very young age, but that was before I decided not to care what other people think.

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2 hours ago, Torturga said:

Read the below paragraph with a sense of humour...unless you like getting offended and all pissy off!

One thing that metal and goth have in common is that both scenes have a high ratio of one specific gender...in metal it is generally male and in the goth scene, at least in the past, it is generally female. Which meant that both ended up dating eachother despite their mutual "hatred" of the other person' s taste in music and clothing. Example: metal guy to goth girl " why the hell shave off your eyebrows just to draw some new ones one" or goth girl to metal guy " you would look great wearing eye liner. Frost wears eyeliner"...metal guy "No!"

The above is a very crude example and yes...a joke!!! But it was a joke that I and a freind came up with one night at a club, when we were sitting near a table full of...single metal guys and ditto goth women looking a bit confused and shy kinda a "Soooooo...do you like Star Treck?" mode but at the same time eyeing eachother.

But no,  I have never experienced male chauvinism in the metal scene myself. I have encountered misconceptions about metal women, yes, but I doubt there were meant as an insult. But no, not all women in the metal scene like ballads...in fact I hate them! The only time I felt excluded in the metal scene was during my first encounter with it at a very young age, but that was before I decided not to care what other people think.

I hate ballads too  :D  I find, as someone described it, 'aggressive' music,  much more satisfying..cathartic even...

Tortuga gave this Horns Up!

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I don't really assume what women do or do not like when it comes to anything (including metal) because, in my experience, they already get enough of that nonsense from other women. 

Tortuga gave this Horns Up!

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I've found that accusations of the like really depend on how the definition of chauvinism (or whichever ism) is interpreted by an individual and the level of rationality of said individual. People often rely on intuition and anecdotes to guide their judgment but if an individual possesses a preconceived belief that chauvinism exists then these anecdotes may only serve as a form of confirmation bias. Identity politics offers a gross oversimplification of reality and, ironically, do more to contribute to civil unrest and dissension between genders, races, cultures etc. 

I'm certain that many women view the metal community as a 'boys club' and may not feel entirely welcome within but I don't believe that male metalheads treat women any worse than they treat each other. 

 

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So honestly yes there are some bad eggs in the bunch who are legitimately hateful of women, but what a lot of people don't seem to understand is most of it is just dark expression, art, fantasy, whatever you wanna call it! I love how someone will give people shit because one band has some misogynistic lyrics or some shit, but you don't have a fucking problem with another bands lyrics about mass murder, necrophilia, Nazi worship and every other form of depravity and hate?? Give me a break. People just like to complain about every fucking thing. Get themselves attention by being annoying. Others just completely overreact over something they don't understand, and can't understand why the whole world can't be the same boring bland personality, with everything being completely family friendly and clean. 

I understand that misogyny is a very real, very serious and very fucked up problem in the world, but not every thing should be taken way too seriously, or censored, or feared. 

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I have to honestly say that I have been treated better by male metal heads than males who have not been into metal! True, there have been some men who were/are into metal who have not liked me or not cared to get to know me but the feeling was mutual...I am not very tolerant either, there are some people that I just don't like the look off!!!! So I have never taken it as a personal insult and I have never felt threatend or treated disrespectfully in any metal bar or at any metal gig...and I have been to many!!!!

However...go into any random bar not know for dragging in a metal crowd and five minutes into your stay some idiot will come over to, lay his arm around your shoulder and begin telling the story of his life (or at least try too...alcohol had a shitty affect on one's ability to talk) while showering you with alcohol laid dribble. And then he gets angry if you tell him that you are not interested. Or a random guy sees you as a target, goes all nice guy and offers you a drink, gets all pissy when you decline (don't take it personal...but I do not drink alcohol an I never accept gifts from strangers), and then tries to grab you in the most unwanted places. Now I am talking from personal experiences which is why I just do not go to random bars and clubs anymore..."normal" men when being drunk tend to be real creeps! Perhaps it is because they force themselves to be conformed and clean cut when being sober, but hell knows...I have been to placed packed with punk guys, skinhead guys, goth guys, and metal guys...and not once have I felt so uncomfortable, that I have been scared (apart from the times when punks and skins had decided not to get along, but that had nothing to do with gender).

So to be blunt: if you want to find any traces of actual male chauvinism in metal then you really must know where to look for it, because I have to this date not found any myself! Remarks like "we will play a ballad, because women like it" are not said as an insult, but out of plain ignorance...not all women like ballads, in fact they piss me off!!! And the very rare comment such as "women cannot play music"...well, let me put it this way, the guy who once said that to me was so thick that he needed to undo the buttons in his jeans in order to count to 11 *lmao* So male chauvinism in metal is like some unknown bacteria...it is there, most have an idea of it is there, but no one could be bothered to pay it any further attention because tbh, it is just not that interesting.

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38 minutes ago, Torturga said:

I have to honestly say that I have been treated better by male metal heads than males who have not been into metal! True, there have been some men who were/are into metal who have not liked me or not cared to get to know me but the feeling was mutual...I am not very tolerant either, there are some people that I just don't like the look off!!!! So I have never taken it as a personal insult and I have never felt threatend or treated disrespectfully in any metal bar or at any metal gig...and I have been to many!!!!

However...go into any random bar not know for dragging in a metal crowd and five minutes into your stay some idiot will come over to, lay his arm around your shoulder and begin telling the story of his life (or at least try too...alcohol had a shitty affect on one's ability to talk) while showering you with alcohol laid dribble. And then he gets angry if you tell him that you are not interested. Or a random guy sees you as a target, goes all nice guy and offers you a drink, gets all pissy when you decline (don't take it personal...but I do not drink alcohol an I never accept gifts from strangers), and then tries to grab you in the most unwanted places. Now I am talking from personal experiences which is why I just do not go to random bars and clubs anymore..."normal" men when being drunk tend to be real creeps! Perhaps it is because they force themselves to be conformed and clean cut when being sober, but hell knows...I have been to placed packed with punk guys, skinhead guys, goth guys, and metal guys...and not once have I felt so uncomfortable, that I have been scared (apart from the times when punks and skins had decided not to get along, but that had nothing to do with gender).

So to be blunt: if you want to find any traces of actual male chauvinism in metal then you really must know where to look for it, because I have to this date not found any myself! Remarks like "we will play a ballad, because women like it" are not said as an insult, but out of plain ignorance...not all women like ballads, in fact they piss me off!!! And the very rare comment such as "women cannot play music"...well, let me put it this way, the guy who once said that to me was so thick that he needed to undo the buttons in his jeans in order to count to 11 *lmao* So male chauvinism in metal is like some unknown bacteria...it is there, most have an idea of it is there, but no one could be bothered to pay it any further attention because tbh, it is just not that interesting.

Generalizations exist for a reason and are used to paint a picture which then allows for a particular phenomenon or observable characteristic to be studied further. For example, it is a generalization that women are shorter than men. Sure, some women are taller than some men but that is irrelevant. However, knowing this is useful for understanding and asking questions as to why this occurs. 

In music and certainly in metal, women tend to play keyboards or sing. Why aren't there more women playing guitar or even just playing in metal bands to begin with? It does appear that women generally prefer softer music than aggressive music. Why is this the case? It would be worthwhile to ask women these questions before taking offense to a generalization. I don't believe it is ignorant to make a generalization because generalizations are not meant to apply to specific individuals, but groups of people instead and that is the very point of them.   

You must know that bars are not the greatest place to meet quality people, male or female, and I believe that is the whole point. Men know this and women know this hence why they go to bars: the lower the standards, the easier it is to get laid.  

 

Tortuga gave this Horns Up!

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10 minutes ago, Vampyrique said:

Generalizations exist for a reason and are used to paint a picture which then allows for a particular phenomenon or observable characteristic to be studied further. For example, it is a generalization that women are shorter than men. Sure, some women are taller than some men but that is irrelevant. However, knowing this is useful for understanding and asking questions as to why this occurs. 

In music and certainly in metal, women tend to play keyboards or sing. Why aren't there more women playing guitar or even just playing in metal bands to begin with? It does appear that women generally prefer softer music than aggressive music. Why is this the case? It would be worthwhile to ask women these questions before taking offense to a generalization. I don't believe it is ignorant to make a generalization because generalizations are not meant to apply to specific individuals, but groups of people instead and that is the very point of them.   

You must know that bars are not the greatest place to meet quality people, male or female, and I believe that is the whole point. Men know this and women know this hence why they go to bars: the lower the standards, the easier it is to get laid.  

 

My past is a bit weird, Vampyrique...during my teenage years I was punk, then a bit goth mixed with metal. From I was 15 and until I was 35, I never ever went to "normal" bars and clubs...like ever. I only knew about them from the outside and a bit from the general media. Then in the mid 2000's a lot of things in my life seemed to go not wrong as such, but in very weird directions, I shall not dig further into that. But even at the age of 36, I felt too young to sit alone at home on a Saturday night in a unknown town and foreign country, I was asked out by a neigbour and well, regretted it as stated in my qouted post. And you are right... bars and nightclubs are just the worst places ever, which is why I will never go to one again. So no, unbelievable at it must sound, at the age of 36 I really did not know what most bars and clubs were like, since I had never been to one. These days I just rock out alone...a bit boring, but would not be without it :)

But as for generalisation: why would I as a woman prefere to sing or play the keybords instead of a guitar? That is one hell of a good question, but easy to answer...first off I am very introvert! It does not mean that I am shy. I can easily stand up and talk infront of a crowd, interview somebody, or give dance lessons...I have done all that numerous times and as long as I am well prepared, then I more than comfortable in my own skin. But I would never be able to interact with a crowd like many metal muscians do...it would interfere with my personal space, I would feel like I was being forced hugged by a thousand people at the same time which is a very unpleasent thought!!! So "hiding" behind a keyboard would be ideal for me! Singing could also be an option for me, if the band was not too out going at gigs. Being introvert has nothing specifically to do with gender, but now you've got my explaination for wht yours truly will never be a guitar player in a band who loves being one with the audience.

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4 hours ago, Vampyrique said:

 You must know that bars are not the greatest place to meet quality people, male or female, and I believe that is the whole point. Men know this and women know this hence why they go to bars: the lower the standards, the easier it is to get laid.  

 

I like going to bars. Used to like going to clubs, too, I actually went out dancing at goth nights a lot when I was a teenager. I've had awesome conversations, met some great people, and formed years or decades-long friendships in those environments. Never once went to get laid. Good thing you're so comfortable making generalizations, huh?

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1 hour ago, FatherAlabaster said:

I like going to bars. Used to like going to clubs, too, I actually went out dancing at goth nights a lot when I was a teenager. I've had awesome conversations, met some great people, and formed years or decades-long friendships in those environments. Never once went to get laid. Good thing you're so comfortable making generalizations, huh?

I'm surprised you've never heard of this phenomenon. There's a reason why people call them meat markets. Bars are well-known to be one of the worst places to meet quality individuals, especially on a romantic level. In general, women make themselves attractive to men and it is men who typically approach women rather than vice versa. With regards to bars, factor in inebriation, age, hypersexuality, loud music etc.  

Of course, not everybody thinks this way and not every bar or club is the same. But again, generalizations don't apply to every single specific individual. An exception to a trend does not invalidate the trend. 

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11 minutes ago, Vampyrique said:

I'm surprised you've never heard of this phenomenon. There's a reason why people call them meat markets. Bars are well-known to be one of the worst places to meet quality individuals, especially on a romantic level. 

Of course, not everybody thinks this way and not every bar or club is the same. But again, generalizations don't apply to every single specific individual. 

Oh, I know what you're talking about, I just think you're ignoring some very positive aspects of socializing under those conditions. In the same way, I get what you said about "identity politics" earlier, and in some situations under the most current interpretation of the term, I'd agree, but using it that way ignores the historical value of identity politics during the struggle for civil rights, and insofar as that struggle is ongoing, there's still a lot of value in it, regardless of the caricatures some people make out of themselves by over-politicizing everything. 

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1 hour ago, FatherAlabaster said:

Oh, I know what you're talking about, I just think you're ignoring some very positive aspects of socializing under those conditions. In the same way, I get what you said about "identity politics" earlier, and in some situations under the most current interpretation of the term, I'd agree, but using it that way ignores the historical value of identity politics during the struggle for civil rights, and insofar as that struggle is ongoing, there's still a lot of value in it, regardless of the caricatures some people make out of themselves by over-politicizing everything. 

Certainly, there are positives but bars are not the ideal place that I would recommend people meet others. As for goth nights, that is something with a specified theme so I can imagine lonesome goths crawling out from dark corners yearning to meet the rare like-minded individual who share interests and perspectives on life.  

But there is something interesting going on with identity politics and there is nothing philosophical about it. I would argue that, especially in universities, people are being conditioned to a point of mental and emotional instability. For example: If a self-proclaimed feminist hears someone discussing the idea that women prefer to read romance novels, she may take offense or get 'triggered' by this generalization of women. In terms of psychology, it would be widely understood that she is taking offense because she knows there is truth in this stereotype but because it does not correspond to her own specific and personalized life experience or idealized representation of women, she is reacting strongly against it in hopes to crush the idea that there is truth in this generalization. But I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. She should simply ask women why they may prefer to read romance novels as opposed to say, sci-fi, and it would serve as an educational experience. So identity politics functions almost like the opposite of a generalization in so far as you have an individual or a small group of individuals who want to project their revisionist history and identity onto an entire gender, race, or culture regardless of biology and historical context. 

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3 minutes ago, Vampyrique said:

But there is something interesting going on with identity politics and there is nothing philosophical about it. I would argue that, especially in universities, people are being conditioned to a point of mental and emotional instability. For example: If a self-proclaimed feminist hears someone discussing the idea that women prefer to read romance novels, she may take offense to this generalization of women. In terms of psychology, it would be widely understood that she is taking offense because she knows there is truth in this stereotype but because it does not correspond to her own specific and personalized life experience or idealized representation of women, she is reacting strongly against it in hopes to crush the idea that there is truth in this generalization. But I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. She should simply ask women why they may prefer to read romance novels as opposed to say, sci-fi, and it would serve as an educational experience. So identity politics functions almost like the opposite of a generalization in so far as you have an individual or a small group of individuals who want to project their identity onto an entire gender, race, culture regardless of biology and historical context. 

This is the kind of caricature I'm talking about. To be fair, you could just as easily find an example among the so-called "men's rights" set, for instance. I'm not denying people like that exist - in fact I've had conversations along these lines recently - but what makes you think those people are any more representative of a general truth about identity politics than they are of the groups they might claim to speak for? I don't think the problem is identity, I think it's political exhibitionism, and fuck me if it isn't everywhere I turn these days. My point being that identity politics - forming a political coalition to address issues that affect a group, as opposed to party politics - isn't inherently a bad thing, and in some cases I think it's necessary.

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20 minutes ago, FatherAlabaster said:

This is the kind of caricature I'm talking about. To be fair, you could just as easily find an example among the so-called "men's rights" set, for instance. I'm not denying people like that exist - in fact I've had conversations along these lines recently - but what makes you think those people are any more representative of a general truth about identity politics than they are of the groups they might claim to speak for? I don't think the problem is identity, I think it's political exhibitionism, and fuck me if it isn't everywhere I turn these days. My point being that identity politics - forming a political coalition to address issues that affect a group, as opposed to party politics - isn't inherently a bad thing, and in some cases I think it's necessary.

I would actually agree with you about mens' movements. Especially MGTOW for example. But I think this is largely reactionary. And this is why I dislike this sort of thing. Because now you have feminist groups and a group like MGTOW; this only serves to cause dissension between genders. Why don't people look out for people? Anyone with a decent set of morals would be willing to. I honestly don't believe I've ever met any men who truly believe that women shouldn't have the right to vote, drive cars etc. Women in the western countries have it better than they do in any other part of the world so this sort of civil rights activism is best served in middle eastern countries where women cannot drive, vote or set foot in coffee shops to place an order rather than in Hollywood films, twitter and in other trivial avenues. Another issue that I have is with the myopic, black-and-white filter that people tend to view things under. For example, everything gets looked at through a victim/oppressor narrative but life isn't that simple. 

 

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6 hours ago, FatherAlabaster said:

I like going to bars. Used to like going to clubs, too, I actually went out dancing at goth nights a lot when I was a teenager. I've had awesome conversations, met some great people, and formed years or decades-long friendships in those environments. Never once went to get laid. Good thing you're so comfortable making generalizations, huh?

I agree, goth nights were really cool!!!!.There was a goth organization i Copenhagen years ago called The Black Cat and they used to host a night club/live gig once a month, later on some of the founders opened a goth bar called Faust. And before there was Club Barbue. But these were certainly not the places that I was refering to in my post. In fact had there been goth or metal nights at bars and clubs where I live, then I would go!

But I have no desire to experience what I did that night I went out with my neighbour: getting laid on by drunk idiot next to a coke snoring bitch while getting my brain blasted with techno "music" is just not my thing!

But enough of that...I am ready to talk metal again :)

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