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Male chauvinism in Metal


dilatedmind

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Re: Male chauvinism in Metal Wow, what a post. I did read all of it and really enjoyed it, but that shouldn't surprise many here, given the usual length of my posts. I think it's interesting to hear the female perspective here, because frankly, there are very few women involved with metal and even less that would share their thoughts as candidly as that. I don't get what the big deal is, music is music, gender is gender, I'm not sure why so many would be so cruel to you about your gender in a discussion about metal. I guess that on the whole, most metalheads can be just as close-minded as those they claim to oppose, which is why most of the time I don't feel the sense of "brotherhood" that many others speak of. I post on metal forums because I have very few friends that are into metal, and I play in bands with almost all of them. I have met plenty of cool people, but by and large, metalheads are assholes just like everyone else (I have to include myself with that). Anyway, I've been enjoying reading your posts here and elsewhere, so I hope you stick around. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

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Wow, what a post. I did read all of it and really enjoyed it, but that shouldn't surprise many here, given the usual length of my posts. I think it's interesting to hear the female perspective here, because frankly, there are very few women involved with metal and even less that would share their thoughts as candidly as that. I don't get what the big deal is, music is music, gender is gender, I'm not sure why so many would be so cruel to you about your gender in a discussion about metal. I guess that on the whole, most metalheads can be just as close-minded as those they claim to oppose, which is why most of the time I don't feel the sense of "brotherhood" that many others speak of. I post on metal forums because I have very few friends that are into metal, and I play in bands with almost all of them. I have met plenty of cool people, but by and large, metalheads are assholes just like everyone else (I have to include myself with that). Anyway, I've been enjoying reading your posts here and elsewhere, so I hope you stick around.
Pretty long posts especially given that you are posting from a mobile device! Thank you. I really get a sense of comraderie, as I said, in large communal environments as opposed to the internet. For example Bloodstock festival or maybe the Iron Maiden gig I saw in a huge arena. It's harder to cut others down when you're in person, face to face. There are some online communities that foster the most vile, hate-fueled, vitriolic behavior I have *ever* experienced on the net, bar none. It doesn't even compare to being a female in a multiplayer game. That's immature teasing at its worst. Objectifying and demoralizing women is sadly abundant. Don't even get me started on how some metal communities treat transgendered women, non-whites, LGBT, etc. Sadly, tolerance and appreciation of all is not the spirit for many metalheads. Depends on where you go. I lurked several communities before I selected this one, having been 'burned' before. So far you guys seem like a good group of metal fans.
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Re: Male chauvinism in Metal

Pretty long posts especially given that you are posting from a mobile device! Thank you. I really get a sense of comraderie, as I said, in large communal environments as opposed to the internet. For example Bloodstock festival or maybe the Iron Maiden gig I saw in a huge arena. It's harder to cut others down when you're in person, face to face. There are some online communities that foster the most vile, hate-fueled, vitriolic behavior I have *ever* experienced on the net, bar none. It doesn't even compare to being a female in a multiplayer game. That's immature teasing at its worst. Objectifying and demoralizing women is sadly abundant. Don't even get me started on how some metal communities treat transgendered women, non-whites, LGBT, etc. Sadly, tolerance and appreciation of all is not the spirit for many metalheads. Depends on where you go. I lurked several communities before I selected this one, having been 'burned' before. So far you guys seem like a good group of metal fans.
Sadly, my phone is faster than my computer, so I do most of my posting this way. I'm also a moderator, so this site can eat up my battery life, but it's worth it. I ended up here after being away from forums for a while and my band mate NTNR told me about this place. Plenty of people come and go here, but the core group is a solid bunch. This is a pretty drama free forum, no flame wars or shit talking, just metal and (mostly related) topics. Anyway, I hope you find what you're looking for here. From what I've seen, you fit in well here, and we could definitely use more regulars as opposed to all of the spammers we get. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
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I find it sad that fans of a genre which is stereotyped, marginalised and treated with astonishing intolerance by so many people can in fact be less tolerant of other fans of that genre. To be honest those sorts of people make me sick to my stomach. Metal has an amazing ability to unite people regardless of age, religion, culture, gender or anything else and yet rather then celebrate this diversity there are too many people who want to vilify those who don't meet the outsiders stereotype of what metalheads should be.

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  • 1 month later...
And as for feminism... I echo the comments of another girl. I support equality but not to any extreme that marginalizes men -- and extreme feminists are a huge rant of mine for another time. It saddens me that the focus has been completely taken away from men as well' date=' who also suffer from imposed standards from society, and I don't think I'd ever wish to be a man because of the private boxed-in hell it must be to have to live up to society's standards. Always be challenging other men, proving your masculinity, conforming to the boys' club, not expressing emotions, having to be the sole provider and protector, being the shoulders upon which all responsibility falls in the family, being harassed and abused for having any tendency toward that which is seen as abnormal, feminine, gender-bending, expressive, or showing any sign of weakness. I really do respect and acknowledge how hard it is for men in society. [/quote'] Thank almighty Christ, this is a breath of fresh air indeed. I read the entire post but this in particular was just splendid. Would you please come to my university and shout this from the rooftops? The problem is that some folks seem to confuse a 'metal' lifestyle with with metal music itself rather than understanding what metal actually is and thereby completely miss the point. (By comparison, the movie Rock Of Ages did this with rock music). I did actually see someone say that all 'real' metalheads are over 30 years old.
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Re: Male chauvinism in Metal

All of the big 4 bands are amazing' date=' but I would say that Slayer is the best. Nothing better than death n' bloodshed.[/quote'] Most of our progress recently has been a facade masking a more subliminal form of control and oppression. The cult of celebrity and an adherence to trends are just some of the ways this control is kept, not only does it restrict the mind (on a very basic level, mind you), it distracts from problems under the surface that are festering and decaying. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
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Most of our progress recently has been a facade masking a more subliminal form of control and oppression. The cult of celebrity and an adherence to trends are just some of the ways this control is kept, not only does it restrict the mind (on a very basic level, mind you), it distracts from problems under the surface that are festering and decaying. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
I disagree its a facade, I believe it's real progress. Old people are dying off, liberal people are growing up, voting, taking office. I see real change. I also agree that the celebrity cult worshipping and other garbage distracting people from the truth is just one of the many tools of oppression used on us. We just slip further and further into our isolated alternate realities, while we are just frogs in the pot being boiled. And good morning to you guys too! lol
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What do you mean by 'liberal'?
Socially liberal people and attitudes. Hippies, metalheads, etc. are moving into their 40's, 50's, 60's and have more power to make change than ever. I'm just pointing out a trend that has been going on for centuries. Corsets became bras. Trousers became jeans. slaves became free men. Etc etc.
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Re: Male chauvinism in Metal

I disagree its a facade, I believe it's real progress. Old people are dying off, liberal people are growing up, voting, taking office. I see real change. I also agree that the celebrity cult worshipping and other garbage distracting people from the truth is just one of the many tools of oppression used on us. We just slip further and further into our isolated alternate realities, while we are just frogs in the pot being boiled. And good morning to you guys too! lol
As a resident of Utah, I can state emphatically that it is a facade. The new NSA data center (spy center) that is illegally listening to the phone conversations of Americans, in addition to reading their emails, texts, and tapping into any other manner of internet connected media they are attached to, is a mere 10 miles from my home. Any superficial level of social progress is negated by deeper subversion like this. And don't even get me started on Obamacare... Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
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But were the slaves really freed Ghoul? Certainly there is more equality but being treated equally under an oppressive regime is not true progress. I would argue that slavery is worse now then ever before. We are all enslaved by power-crazed people hiding behind the pretence of politics. Social liberties are being infringed on a daily basis in each and every "developed" nation. One need only look to BAN's post above to see how absent freedom is in the US and it is the same in Australia. When individual liberties are entirely subject to outside control it is called slavery. The only difference is that physical chains are not needed in 2013.

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Socially liberal people and attitudes.
Again, what do you mean by the word 'liberal'? Openness to change?
When individual liberties are entirely subject to outside control it is called slavery.
No, that's tyranny. Slavery is uncompensated involuntary labor. Qatar is an absolute monarchy and thereby a tyranny, but it is not a nation of slaves.
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But are any of us really compensated for our labour? When you work for 12 to 14 hours a day, five or six days a week (sometimes every day of the week) and earn barely enough money to survive is that compensation or just the corporation ensuring labour forces don't diminish? When you're trapped in that job because the next place will pay even less (meaning you can't survive on your wage/salary) isn't that a kind of slavery? Granted we aren't talking slavery in the common sense of the word but when every aspect of one's life is controlled in some subtle (and some blatantly obvious) ways this, to me at least, is slavery.

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As a resident of Utah, I can state emphatically that it is a facade. The new NSA data center (spy center) that is illegally listening to the phone conversations of Americans, in addition to reading their emails, texts, and tapping into any other manner of internet connected media they are attached to, is a mere 10 miles from my home. Any superficial level of social progress is negated by deeper subversion like this. And don't even get me started on Obamacare... Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
I really didn't want to open a can of worms. :( I was casually just trying to say that times are better. Of course there's still slavery, atrocities, tyrrany, and oppression in this world. There probably ALWAYS will be. I don't disagree with anything that's been said here about how horrible the world is, and the kind of oppression that exists. But it is not as bad as it used to be, that is the only point I'm making. A rough example: Speak out against the government today, worst case you'll probably be monitored heavily, perhaps put on some kind of "list" where you cannot purchase a firearm or fly out of the country, etc. Speak out against a government 600 years ago, you could expect to be drawn and quartered in brutal execution fashion after months of rotting away in a miserable prison, and your entire family raped, enslaved or slain. I don't think it's superficial progress. Humanity is not as jaw-droppingly shitty and cruel as it once was (with some exceptions of course, there are always sects of people who are still living in the stone ages with regards to being humane), I dont think i could be convinced otherwise. And in the same token I fully recognize the new, more subversive tyranny we live under. Tyranny and oppression is all terrible, but I don't think it's quite what it was.
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But were the slaves really freed Ghoul? The only difference is that physical chains are not needed in 2013.
Historically speaking, slaves were absolutely freed. I would argue people today live a lot more comfortably than the american slaves of 200 years ago. Sure, there's a subversive form of slavery and population control that exists, many kinds, but c'mon. There is MUCH more difference than "physical chains" only. It's one thing to live with restrictions, under the yoke of a monarchy, govornment, religion, debt system, whatever. It's another thing to be lynched for speaking your mind, beaten into a bloody pulp with whips, raped on a daily basis, blamed for everything, denied education, denied love, and treated like filth directly by another human being. Again my ONLY point was that I feel that progress is real, we HAVE come a long way, and while there's things going on that are harming that progress, we all have it a hell of a lot better than we would have 50, 100, 200+ years ago.
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But are any of us really compensated for our labour? When you work for 12 to 14 hours a day' date=' five or six days a week (sometimes every day of the week) and earn barely enough money to survive is that compensation or just the corporation ensuring labour forces don't diminish? When you're trapped in that job because the next place will pay even less (meaning you can't survive on your wage/salary) isn't that a kind of slavery? Granted we aren't talking slavery in the common sense of the word but when every aspect of one's life is controlled in some subtle (and some blatantly obvious) ways this, to me at least, is slavery.[/quote'] You repeated the phrase 'every single aspect' and slavery is not that broad. Slavery only allows for control when the slave is the property of the owner and that's simply not the case with the situation you're talking about. As for being compensated I would say we most definitely are. Receiving a wage from a job one chose, that one uses to pay for one's own expenses means that one is not a slave. In a broader sense yes, people can sometimes be trapped financially, but that's not a coordinated situation to ensure a total lack of disposable income on the part of the proletariat unless you live in a Communist country, ironically.
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I don't like political discussions. One reason I've stayed out of a few threads. But I agree with Ghouly. Social progress had been made, and it's real. It's not just the actions of an insiduously tyrannical government throwing us a bone so we'll keep our mouths shut; it's comprised of a few among many currents pulling our culture along many different vectors. "Liberal" cultural change in the sense of greater empowerment for traditionally disenfranchised groups (black people, female people, homosexual people) is the result of a lot of sweat and grief from a lot of hardworking, sincere, dedicated individuals. Who's to say what will last, and for how long? But I'm happy at some of the progress that has been made. ...however, sorry Ghouly, this is too bright and shiny by half:

A rough example: Speak out against the government today' date=' worst case you'll probably be monitored heavily, perhaps put on some kind of "list" where you cannot purchase a firearm or fly out of the country, etc. Speak out against a government 600 years ago, you could expect to be drawn and quartered in brutal execution fashion after months of rotting away in a miserable prison, and your entire family raped, enslaved or slain. [/quote'] We've got high-profile cases of political imprisonment or persecution for dissidents like Bradley Manning, Aaron Swartz, John Kiriakou... raids on Occupy organizers... list goes on. I won't argue the government's narrow "right" to prosecute or imprison these people on whatever grounds, because one hallmark of today's USA government is their willingness to trot out "legal" justifications for their actions whenever a coverup doesn't work. Most of us aren't in danger of life imprisonment because we'll never have access to those sensitive details. My goal isn't to argue whether the government is right or wrong. I think they're wrong. We're not talking about selling nuclear secrets to the Soviets; we're talking about releasing video of American soldiers having fun committing war crimes. Regardless of how you feel about their actions, people of conscience are getting their lives ruined for speaking out. I know all this is OT. I've stayed away from political discussions here because of the needless divisiveness and venom they can generate. I like you guys and gals, and I want to keep it that way. Believe it or not, I really value our diverse little community here. I'll be happy to respond to civil comments whether or not you agree with me, but please don't let this one go off the rails.
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In a broader sense yes' date=' people can sometimes be trapped financially, but that's not a coordinated situation to ensure a total lack of disposable income on the part of the proletariat(...)[/quote'] Yeah, quite the contrary; I'd think a little bit of disposable income is something that very much benefits corporate interests.
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I agree father. I was just making a general example, where I think you're bringing up extreme examples. What you've explained isn't necessarily done to any old joe on an internet forum venting dissident thoughts. I don't advocate it at all! It's awful that people's lives are destroyed. The way I was framing was more to say that any common man who spoke out against a tyrannical ruler, lets say middle ages britain, would have faced extreme torture, unspeakably horrific execution, and the punishment extended to their entire family and children. Today, your life might be ruined, but you wouldn't be put through drawing and quartering even for the most potent opinions.

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No but you would be locked in some hole for the rest of your life and there is no way of knowing whether the government would extend that punishment to your family if they protested against your imprisonment (an imprisonment without any trial and with no possibility of release). I guess slavery isn't the right word to use but our percieved freedoms are far more restrictive then the actual rights they ought to represent. I don't really know what you'd call it because tyranny doesn't quite fit either.

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I guess slavery isn't the right word to use but our percieved freedoms are far more restrictive then the actual rights they ought to represent. I don't really know what you'd call it because tyranny doesn't quite fit either.
That's true - total control of your political actions is tyranny. There's no useful word for what the current situation is other than perhaps an 'oppressive' regime and even that's stretching things.
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As a resident of Utah, I can state emphatically that it is a facade. The new NSA data center (spy center) that is illegally listening to the phone conversations of Americans, in addition to reading their emails, texts, and tapping into any other manner of internet connected media they are attached to, is a mere 10 miles from my home. Any superficial level of social progress is negated by deeper subversion like this. And don't even get me started on Obamacare... Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
I've seen threads floating around the internet about "Obamacare" but with 100 pages or so, aint nobody got time for that. I'm also a UK resident, so I'm completely uninformed. Basically, I would like to get you started on Obamacare :P
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