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Male chauvinism in Metal


dilatedmind

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As much as I hate male chauvinism, I hate female chauvinism too :D And as a girl I have to deal with girls around me who just say stupid words like "men are pigs, men have no feelings (...)" etc. I never had this problem guys, I never lived this stereotypes. As a kid I climbed on trees, I played lego and when I was like 5-6 years old I didn't wanna be a ballet dancer, princess or something like this, but I wanted to be a Paleontologist. I knew how anaerobic bacteria became aerobic. Then I went to school and was like "WOAH!?". I met them. I met girls! Those weird creatures in pink leggins who thought they're the center of the world, who always had good grades, who never fought, never got dirty in mud, never played football... I mean I was raised near a forest, far away from other people, just my parents and my younger sister, I wasn't even baptised (thanks to them!) :) it was a weird world I got into. And I just got more male friends than female. With the time I met some great girls with whom I could talk and who were more like me... in high school I had 3 best friends, 2 girls and one guy. And with this guy I could just talk about everything, football, boobs, girls, I helped sometimes with his relationship (I really like his GF, she's just pure cuteness). And yes, male-female friendship can work. Now I'm playing in a metal band so I'm surrounded just by guys, but it's pretty fine for me. One of them is my dear BF and those others are great friends. Sadly, in the band we (the three of us who grounded Helroth) played before there were sometimes chauvinist jokes - very primitive btw., I really hated. But I'm happy not to see those people anymore :D

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As much as I hate male chauvinism' date=' I hate female chauvinism too [img']http://metalforum.com/images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif And as a girl I have to deal with girls around me who just say stupid words like "men are pigs, men have no feelings (...)" etc.
Can you please come to my campus? We're in dire need of balance.
I[...]would like to agree that lego is awesome.
Second the motion.
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hm...about music I agree, I personally always say that I don't like when women sing to me. There are a few exceptions but as a girl I like male voices. Besides of that...I'd say in Bulgaria there's a huge amount of girls that like metal! It's a good subject to bring up.. But I have to think some more time to come with a good answer. There are a lot of girl fans that are pretty much posers. A lot that will experience some sort of a teenage passion for the band (If you think of Tarja and all her 14 years old fans that are obsessed with her). I personally don't even know the names of the band members of most of the bands I enjoy. I just listen to the music and that's all. Iceni, I think your post is rather chauvinistic! I met a lot of male metal fans whose psychological depth is the one of a raindrop! And I'm here to brag with my master degree in literature to prove you wrong :D:D So for the fans I am more likely to disagree with you guys. There are plenty of metal girls out there for you ! But for the bands...I dunno. I think the whole thing started as something that praises force, rebel, aggression ..and males fit better in this image. Hm..you gave me food for thought. I'll think about it more !

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But, where are those girls? I mean, I know a lot of girls who listen to metal, but thats mostly bands like Metallica, Papa Roach, Stone Sour, Nightwish, and all that mainstream stuff. There is only one girl who I know who knows some more about metal and listens almost the same stuff like me. And I know some women around 30-40 years, but they are mostly old-school. The point is, like LilleFloytist said, most girls aren't into some 'men' stuff, like soccer and lego, because it fits not the image of how a girl should be. The girls I mentioned above (those who only listen to metallica, etc.) are listening also to pop/singersongerwriter, etc. It's just...their softier side or something. I cannot explain it good ebough, but I'll hope you get my point. And that other girl, who listens to some extremer stuff, is also in soccer and some "malethings".

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Iceni' date=' I think your post is rather chauvinistic! I met a lot of male metal fans whose psychological depth is the one of a raindrop! And I'm here to brag with my master degree in literature to prove you wrong:D[/quote'] If it were I'd have been banned.:P My statement was defined by three parameters: 1) I made a statement from personal observation. I didn't make any remarks that implied that being intellectually shallow was an inherently female trait, inasmuch as I specifically said that I couldn't offer any root cause for the traits I saw manifested. And obviously, because of its nature as personal experience, it cannot be taken as a blanket statement because my sample size is nowhere near large enough and my methods are not strictly statistical. 2) You'll also notice I clearly acknowledged the fact that there were in fact female metaheads - whose intellectual depth I did not besmirch. 3) The observation made no statement on the intellectual integrity of male metalheads, except to provide a hypothetical root cause as to why some of them liked metal. It was not intended to address the dimwitted male metalheads you describe, except perhaps on a subconscious level. I know that stupidity applies equally to both sexes. For that matter, I'm not denying that finding anyone with philosophical depth is difficult.
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on Yobo's point I likewise have only encountered a handful of female metalheads who listen to more extreme metal, one in particular who was telling me I should check out some band, I think it was called Hour of something can't remember the full name, I look forward to chatting with her again, I also find it really interesting that both her and one other female metaller I've encountered (who also listens to more extreme metal) are vision impaired

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If it were I'd have been banned.:P My statement was defined by three parameters: 1) I made a statement from personal observation. I didn't make any remarks that implied that being intellectually shallow was an inherently female trait, inasmuch as I specifically said that I couldn't offer any root cause for the traits I saw manifested. And obviously, because of its nature as personal experience, it cannot be taken as a blanket statement because my sample size is nowhere near large enough and my methods are not strictly statistical. 2) You'll also notice I clearly acknowledged the fact that there were in fact female metaheads - whose intellectual depth I did not besmirch. 3) The observation made no statement on the intellectual integrity of male metalheads, except to provide a hypothetical root cause as to why some of them liked metal. It was not intended to address the dimwitted male metalheads you describe, except perhaps on a subconscious level. I know that stupidity applies equally to both sexes. For that matter, I'm not denying that finding anyone with philosophical depth is difficult.
hehehe good good you're not a chauvinist I admit it:) I said it with a smiley so you don't take it thaaat seriously and yet you did. By the way, yesterday Dave told me I'm oldschool. I didn't know that....I guess I'm getting old ..
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But' date=' where are those girls? I mean, I know a lot of girls who listen to metal, but thats mostly bands like Metallica, Papa Roach, Stone Sour, Nightwish, and all that mainstream stuff. There is only one girl who I know who knows some more about metal and listens almost the same stuff like me. And I know some women around 30-40 years, but they are mostly old-school. The point is, like LilleFloytist said, most girls aren't into some 'men' stuff, like soccer and lego, because it fits not the image of how a girl should be. The girls I mentioned above (those who only listen to metallica, etc.) are listening also to pop/singersongerwriter, etc. It's just...their softier side or something. I cannot explain it good ebough, but I'll hope you get my point. And that other girl, who listens to some extremer stuff, is also in soccer and some "malethings".[/quote'] Well Yobo if you look at the gender division in general maybe 80% of it is socially imposed. Girls should be pretty, should like pretty stuff, dress in pink, be decent....And that whole education makes girls adhere to that image. We're not in the past but those things stick-and I consider men have more freedom about their choices in life than women, because of that imposed image. Some find their way out of it and start liking other stuff simply because it fits who they really are, some continue and imitate the others, and follow "fashion". I mean if you could go to a children's toystore you'll definitely see a big spot of pink/violet puke while the toys for boys are much more interesting in colors and functions:)
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Well Yobo if you look at the gender division in general maybe 80% of it is socially imposed. Girls should be pretty' date=' should like pretty stuff, dress in pink, be decent....And that whole education makes girls adhere to that image. We're not in the past but those things stick-and I consider men have more freedom about their choices in life than women, because of that imposed image. Some find their way out of it and start liking other stuff simply because it fits who they really are, some continue and imitate the others, and follow "fashion". I mean if you could go to a children's toystore you'll definitely see a big spot of pink/violet puke while the toys for boys are much more interesting in colors and functions:)[/quote'] This is pretty much the point I wanted to make :)
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on Yobo's point I likewise have only encountered a handful of female metalheads who listen to more extreme metal' date=' one in particular who was telling me I should check out some band, I think it was called Hour of something can't remember the full name,[/quote'] Probably Hour of Penance. Excellent Italian band. Very anti-clerical lyrics but some superb drumming.
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So this has been brought up in another thread and I think it's a worthwhile discussion to be had. There is quite possibly a higher ratio of males to females in Metal and fans of Metal. I don't have the figures but I would think so anyways. I think Metal fans are extremely brotherly and fraternal' date=' even females if thats even possible. It does seem quite male i.e. if we're French I might say Le Metal rather than La. However, I don't see our awesome genre and it's fan base as because being chauvinistic beyond what might come naturally to a Viking... what are your thoughts?[/quote'] Hey dilatedmind, I came across this book whilst surfing the net which is somewhat on the same point of your post, but also covers race issues too. I haven't read the book but you can read the review here) .
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  • 3 months later...

I have to agree. It is a very masculine, fraternal brotherhood. Even the female metalheads I know are feminine but have the same attitude we have. And it is one of last places men can be men. These days a lot of men are weak but male metalheads are strong, meat eating, chest pounding men!

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Re: Male chauvinism in Metal

Just one girl's opinion: I hate gender stereotypes. I hate thinking that one person should act one way while another should act the other. I love masculinity, I love femininity, I love androgyny. I hate prejudice, and just wish people would let others be and like what they damn well please.
Wow, you are so awesome :) I completely agree with you.
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I agree with IntergalacticGoose on this. This gender stereotypes seems to be so deeply carved into our social structures and traditions that many dont question them. And Viking. Whats so manly about eating meat? Haha. I have to quote on of the Nifelheim brothers on this. Rob Halford is so manly he doesent even like women.

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I agree with IntergalacticGoose on this. This gender stereotypes seems to be so deeply carved into our social structures and traditions that many dont question them. And Viking. Whats so manly about eating meat? Haha. I have to quote on of the Nifelheim brothers on this. Rob Halford is so manly he doesent even like women.
Ever heard Steve Hughes' take on the subject? Fucking hilarious: in9SiDtJLaU
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Chauvinists are the unevolved alcoholics of Louisiana. Women recognize when a man is, indeed, intellectual by his debates about black holes, or whether Athenian democracy failed because of the popularity fallacy or the strict definitions of a citizen. I am skeptical of people who shout their intellectual superiority at another gender without any critical thinking skills. Granted, there are a lot of dumb women in the world. I've met just as many men who scratch their heads or asses while talking. The boys club mentality is a mystery to me. If all women were the Barbie-doll type, it would be justified. Some women actually prefer a Metallica t-shirt to a bright pink fuzzy halter top. That is more relevant to personality and amount of active brain cells than gender. There are male and female douche bags. Too bad they don't have their own little exclusive island of Mormons, rappers, trailer trash, and Justin Biebers.

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  • 2 months later...

This is such a good discussion. I've enjoyed every page of it, except the boobie pics which made me :o because I'm at work... well maybe I enjoyed a teeny bit. I guess I'll out myself as a female, and we'll see how it goes. I have outed my gender before on metal forums and it was a miserable experience. Male chauvinism in metal? You bet. It is alive and well, especially on the net where people can hide behind their keyboards and chop people down to make themselves feel better. On a certain popular encyclopedic website for metal, I was torn to shreds, insulted, negatively judged, called all manner of vile things by people who didn't know me at all or treated like an object for fucking. This after I outed myself on a picture sharing thread where previously all thought I was male, and I was treated well if not respected there when I was assumed to be male. Once they saw an attractive female, any focus on my opinions or thoughts disappeared. A YTMND page was actually created to make fun of me and my picture. The amount of hurt, shame, and rejection I dealt with was really difficult, I won't lie. That is just one example of dozens. I'm long over it, it was almost a decade ago when that happened, but I am less forthcoming these days. I had 2 forums which I really loved and had a base of men who were very courteous and treated me equally - but both closed and that's how I found myself here. OK, so worst part of being a woman at a gig is being too short to see over the men, and being slammed around. I actually don't really go for the experience of moshing or being thrown around. Maybe I'm a wimp, or I bruise easily or something. 0.o What is fun about getting an elbow to the neck? Absolutely nothing! and I speak from experience. So for the guys who do make an attempt at protecting me or giving me some space, blocking a hurdling body from crashing into me... THANK YOU. I am the girl who really appreciates it, and just wants to enjoy the band. Some commonalities I share with the other girls who posted here -- I too grew up a tomboy, with a lot of male friends and male dominated interests such as video games, physical sports and things like that. I was a lego kid, not a barbie kid like one of the posters mentioned and I never really fell into the gender stereotype and I got away with it for a long time, into my mid 20's at least. Now, I work a corporate job. Being in a liberal slanted big city I can get away with having really long hair and tattoos. But I can't show up in a Taake shirt and boots. I don't really like dressing in my work clothes because it isn't "me". But that's the society I'm in, and I accept that I have to fit in to be respected by my peers. As I get older, the need to express myself through my outward appearance has declined. To see me on the street with my hair up, guys, you might never realize the twisted, brutal metal I listen to in my car B) I look like any other woman my age working an office job. Any other incognito metalheads out there? Something that has been mentioned -- the comraderie between metal fans. I definitely experience this, especially at large metal festivals like Bloodstock, and it's such an amazing thing to feel like you are brother with 30,000 other people. However, I see far, far less comraderie among women in metal. I have almost no female friends that share my love for metal with the exception of one amazing transgendered woman my age. At metal shows, I get the competitive glares, up and down check, or even the silent treatment from girls. Granted this is typical of women in any community - to be competitive and nasty. I've never gotten a vibe that metalhead girls want to get to know me. Which is a shame because I would love to share a connection like that. I have a large circle of female friends currently but we share a common bond of gaming... which is also uncommon territory for women. And I hold on fiercely to those friends! And as for feminism... I echo the comments of another girl. I support equality but not to any extreme that marginalizes men -- and extreme feminists are a huge rant of mine for another time. It saddens me that the focus has been completely taken away from men as well, who also suffer from imposed standards from society, and I don't think I'd ever wish to be a man because of the private boxed-in hell it must be to have to live up to society's standards. Always be challenging other men, proving your masculinity, conforming to the boys' club, not expressing emotions, having to be the sole provider and protector, being the shoulders upon which all responsibility falls in the family, being harassed and abused for having any tendency toward that which is seen as abnormal, feminine, gender-bending, expressive, or showing any sign of weakness. I really do respect and acknowledge how hard it is for men in society. The world is full of cruel, judgmental, fucked up people who impose their standards upon each other. I love metal because of how it can bring together all types of genders, races, classes, and nationalities. I would love to see more women into metal, personally, to have girls to befriend, and I really empathize with women who have been cut down and treated like a piece of unworthy meat by the metalhead community. I've been there, it hurts, but it didn't drive me away. I can see how it would drive others away. But metal has too much claim on my soul for that to happen. Ah my gahd. So sorry for this ridiculously long post. I'm kinda touching on 8 pages worth of ideas here. TL;DR Some metalheads are chauvenists. Makes it harder for women to enjoy the community. I am not an extreme feminist. I wish there were more female metalheads to befriend. Men have it shitty too and deserve compassion as much as women.

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