Jump to content

spirituality


RelentlessOblivion
 Share

Recommended Posts

Most of the churches they burned down were built by Pagans, so they didn't accomplish much. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
They destroyed some pretty beautiful historical artifacts. It's no different to me than the christian "bonfires of the vanities" or the destruction of Native American cultural products. It's really sad, regardless of who made them or what point someone was trying to make. As you and Vladyka say, they accomplished nothing, except that some angry young men got their rocks off.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 200
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I wouldn't call them childish, I'd call them crazy motherfuckers, even children generally know better then to go around setting shit on fire. That these individuals are so disconnected from reality they can not discern right from wrong isn't sad. It's downright frightening. Couple that with the destruction of some absolutely amazing and ancient structures and artefacts and it's simply a travesty. You may not agree with the christian message but one must simply marvel at the gorgeous buildings constructed for their purpose and the artwork christianity has inspired.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
All the christian metal (and christian and muslim rap) that I've heard is way too preachy and exclusionary. I don't want to listen to that message. I don't care how good the music is.
Well, you won't have a problem because musically it's mostly crap unless you really love nu-metal. Trust a guy with personal experience in the world of new 'youth' Christian music.
I find it disappointing there aren't many religious bands which try to rebuke the criticisms of non-religious bands. I think that would be desireable as opposed to just spouting rhetoric of their own.
There aren't many 'atheist' bands that engage in that level of discussion either, at least not to my knowledge. I know Anata did a handful of songs that were religious criticism but I don't know of any others. There are some Christian bands who give an anti-atheism message like Deliverance, Vengeance Rising, Krig and Slechtvalk among others, but I can't think of any off the top of my head that actually 'criticise' atheism per se. They offer counter-claims, but I've rarely seen anything on the level of a debate. Interestingly, the black metal band Rudra is a Hindu group who offer polemics against Christianity which are interesting if not particularly intelligent. As for the actual topic...well, metal is about rebellion and the idea of rebelling against organized religion certainly seems to energize people although I find it generally tiresome. I would be happier if this sentiment were balanced by more powerfully worded Christian songs, especially like the stuff written by Slechtvalk, Essence of Sorrow and Crimson Moonlight, but it's really not a massive problem.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually you do have a point there. I suppose there aren't many atheist bands with well thought out lyrics forming a critique of organised religion. Perhaps a debate of sorts could arise were there enough bands doing this for and against organised religion which could be quite engaging if the lyrics were well written and the music well performed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually you do have a point there. I suppose there aren't many atheist bands with well thought out lyrics forming a critique of organised religion. Perhaps a debate of sorts could arise were there enough bands doing this for and against organised religion which could be quite engaging if the lyrics were well written and the music well performed.
Sure, but I don't know if that's really the purpose. One could still write good lyrics even if they're not structured in contentions. Akercocke's way of framing religion as a kind of lust still makes for good and very absorbing lyrics, even if as an actual argument it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

True and there are other examples where no argument is being put forth but the lyrics opposing a particular faith are well written. Ultimately music is a form of artistic expression and this means artists are able to freely craft anything they wish. Some take their message too far, some are overtly concerned with creating controversy, some are better at the craft then others, in most cases however there is a deep rooted passion for what they are doing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There aren't too many bands with well thought-out lyrics forming any kind of anything. Let's be honest. Our choice is often between trite, painfully sincere, and just plain stupid. Too frequently it's a combination of the three. I've been listening to Severed Savior a bit, and to use their song "Inverted and Inserted" as an example: I might agree with the core message, but the way they talk about it is dumb as bricks. Some woman masturbating with an upside-down cross as a metaphor for the rejection of religion? Come on... juvenile, androcentric if not outright misogynistic, unoriginal, boring. There are too many to count, I just pulled that one off the top of my head. "Kill The Christian" by Deicide is another fine example of extreme stupidity. A decent articulation of a worldview without religion can be found in the Rush song "Freewill". And I really like that song, but it's pretty goofy, too. I don't know what it's like to judge music simply as a fan, rather than a musician, since I've been playing guitar for so long, but the only way for me to write my own stuff and be honest about it is to keep my head down and just do it without worrying about how it might be seen. So I bet a lot of my shit comes across as trite, overly sincere, awkward, etc. It's an uphill battle and every song is a new challenge. Maybe I shouldn't be so critical...:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some woman masturbating with an upside-down cross as a metaphor for the rejection of religion? Come on... juvenile' date=' androcentric if not outright misogynistic, unoriginal, boring.[/quote'] I don't know, that sounds hilarious... By the way, the whole upside-down cross thing is actually stupider than it seems. An upside-down cross in Catholic lore is the cross of Peter. The legend goes that Peter wished to be crucified upside down as he did not consider himself worthy of being turned into a mocking symbol of Christ's death. The inverted cross displays deference, not rebellion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Is the whole "Anti Religion" really necessary?

There aren't too many bands with well thought-out lyrics forming any kind of anything. Let's be honest. Our choice is often between trite, painfully sincere, and just plain stupid. Too frequently it's a combination of the three. I've been listening to Severed Savior a bit, and to use their song "Inverted and Inserted" as an example: I might agree with the core message, but the way they talk about it is dumb as bricks. Some woman masturbating with an upside-down cross as a metaphor for the rejection of religion? Come on... juvenile, androcentric if not outright misogynistic, unoriginal, boring. There are too many to count, I just pulled that one off the top of my head. "Kill The Christian" by Deicide is another fine example of extreme stupidity. A decent articulation of a worldview without religion can be found in the Rush song "Freewill". And I really like that song, but it's pretty goofy, too. I don't know what it's like to judge music simply as a fan, rather than a musician, since I've been playing guitar for so long, but the only way for me to write my own stuff and be honest about it is to keep my head down and just do it without worrying about how it might be seen. So I bet a lot of my shit comes across as trite, overly sincere, awkward, etc. It's an uphill battle and every song is a new challenge. Maybe I shouldn't be so critical...:)
When I pitched the lyrical theme/concept to NTNR for our new album, he was thrilled. He said it not only sounded awesome, but was original simply because it didn't fall into the "fuck god, kill people, be sad" archetypes. Of course, their quality remains to be seen, but I'm excited by how the story is shaping up. There will probably be some tie-ins with various religions and mythologies, but not in a typical way at all. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Is the whole "Anti Religion" really necessary?

Very cool. I look forward to reading/hearing it. Is it going to be a "concept" album? You've often said that you don't pay much attention to lyrics in the music you listen to; is that a conscious decision?
It is going to be a concept album. The concept is a tough one to explain, a short description would be "doom for non-humans", a longer and slightly closer description would be "an elegy of extra-dimensional forces that once enslaved humanity while existing beyond their grasp". The current title is Non-Entity, which was NTNR's idea, but I love it and it fits perfectly with my lyrical theme. You're right, I seldom read lyrics and don't pay much attention beyond what I can make out with my ears. The music is the ultimate goal for me, the lyrics are just a profane representative of the ineffable feelings on display. The lyrics are a guide in human words, but the depth of music is often beyond description, so I focus more on other ways in which it communicates with me. My lyrics are no different, they may fit what I'm trying to communicate with my music, but they could never fully describe it. I don't publish my lyrics because I would rather direct focus to the music, or have them discerned by the listener if they desire (which usually prompts closer listening, which would go along with my goal). People often forget that speech/language is only one form of communication, and perhaps it is because I often have difficulty with them, I feel that it is the form of communication that separates us from our true nature the most. My dogs taught me this, and I have been trying to do better at communicating at their more primal (and meaningful, IMO) ever since. Music communicates with me in a much more real and meaningful way than words for this same reason. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is going to be a concept album. The concept is a tough one to explain' date=' a short description would be "doom for non-humans", a longer and slightly closer description would be "an elegy of extra-dimensional forces that once enslaved humanity while existing beyond their grasp". The current title is Non-Entity, which was NTNR's idea, but I love it and it fits perfectly with my lyrical theme.[/quote'] That sounds a little bit like the Reinkaos album concept from Dissection.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There aren't too many bands with well thought-out lyrics forming any kind of anything. Let's be honest. Our choice is often between trite, painfully sincere, and just plain stupid. Too frequently it's a combination of the three. I've been listening to Severed Savior a bit, and to use their song "Inverted and Inserted" as an example: I might agree with the core message, but the way they talk about it is dumb as bricks. Some woman masturbating with an upside-down cross as a metaphor for the rejection of religion? Come on... juvenile, androcentric if not outright misogynistic, unoriginal, boring. There are too many to count, I just pulled that one off the top of my head. "Kill The Christian" by Deicide is another fine example of extreme stupidity. A decent articulation of a worldview without religion can be found in the Rush song "Freewill". And I really like that song, but it's pretty goofy, too. I don't know what it's like to judge music simply as a fan, rather than a musician, since I've been playing guitar for so long, but the only way for me to write my own stuff and be honest about it is to keep my head down and just do it without worrying about how it might be seen. So I bet a lot of my shit comes across as trite, overly sincere, awkward, etc. It's an uphill battle and every song is a new challenge. Maybe I shouldn't be so critical...:)
Reading this reminded me of the Glen Benton interview you posted when the whole BROken Hope thing was going down. One thing Benton said on the concept of religion really struck me as peculiar, I don't remember his exact words but I will paraphrase. He said something to the effect of: If there is a God, a higher power with endless energy and abilities, why can't he make us live forever? It's funny to me because that's basically what Christian religions (among others) mostly promise, eternal life after physical death. It just seems to me that this particular criticism of the idea of God comes from the same humanistic desires that often drive people to seek religion, which is often a main argument against religion in certain circles. People say the concept of God, or the main attraction of religion, is a result of the human ego's unwillingness to accept death or nonexistence of the self. It made me laugh a little, and I think it sheds a little more light on his lyrics. As for me, I'm fine with most lyrics as long as they make you think, are thoroughly convincing, or just plain fun. And to me, music is definitely the main priority.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

BAN - I like the way you think about lyrics. I listen more to them now than I used to, which has damaged my appreciation of some music (like say Deicide or Fear Factory or Cannibal Corpse) but enhanced my appreciation of other stuff (like Rush). It all started when I got into Swans in my late teens, because they write in a way that puts the focus squarely on the words; it's a different way of listening. But I always start with music, music is the context, and often the real "content" of my own stuff is to be found in the way the guitar melodies interact with the vocal rhythms. I hear the rhythms in my head, the music tells me what they mean, and then sometimes I have the hardest time pulling out the right words to evoke that meaning. I've had to take a more practical approach lately, and not tinker with them too much, or else this album would never get done; but I feel like I may really nail it with the lyrics one time out of ten, and the rest of the songs are just my best efforts. Then again, I've worked with a few vocalists, some of whom prided themselves on their lyrics, and I usually didn't like what they did with my music at all... so I'm stuck with me.:D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reading this reminded me of the Glen Benton interview you posted when the whole BROken Hope thing was going down. One thing Benton said on the concept of religion really struck me as peculiar, I don't remember his exact words but I will paraphrase. He said something to the effect of: If there is a God, a higher power with endless energy and abilities, why can't he make us live forever? It's funny to me because that's basically what Christian religions (among others) mostly promise, eternal life after physical death. It just seems to me that this particular criticism of the idea of God comes from the same humanistic desires that often drive people to seek religion, which is often a main argument against religion in certain circles. People say the concept of God, or the main attraction of religion, is a result of the human ego's unwillingness to accept death or nonexistence of the self. It made me laugh a little, and I think it sheds a little more light on his lyrics. As for me, I'm fine with most lyrics as long as they make you think, are thoroughly convincing, or just plain fun. And to me, music is definitely the main priority.
He was basically using the "argument from evil". It made me laugh too, considering his rhetoric and all that bullshit about "putting demons into people" that he used to do. But honestly, since he views his stuff as an expression of rebellion against the church rather than actually preaching the worship of Satan, it made me identify with him a little more. I'm glad he doesn't stand behind it to the extent that he actually advocates violence, like dude from Shining who says he's happy when his fans kill themselves. I've got no respect for that kind of thing. My attitude towards lyrics in general has been in flux for years, but it's safe to say they mean a lot more to me than they used to. I still think Benton's lyrics are garbage... I think fear of death can reinforce religious leanings, sure, but there's so much to it. I've read a lot of books on the subject. I don't have time to write another essay now, though, especially if Iceni is going to be responding to it... :D I mostly kid. But I doubt that song lyrics are the place for anything more than personal expression.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He was basically using the "argument from evil". [...] I think fear of death can reinforce religious leanings, sure, but there's so much to it. I've read a lot of books on the subject. I don't have time to write another essay now, though, especially if Iceni is going to be responding to it... :D I mostly kid. But I doubt that song lyrics are the place for anything more than personal expression.
Ah, don't worry, I'm not wearing my controversy pants today. I can't be arsed, researching band histories is not interesting to me and I doubt this guy is any kind of Freidrich Nietzsche. Suffice to say that most anti-religious (specifically anti-Christian, because let's face it, who's writing on the evils of Buddhism?) polemics written in metal tend to be, intellectually speaking, misguided at the best of times, and at worst laughably stupid or downright reprehensible. I read the lyrics to a Neron Kaisar song where the band actually seemed to be approving of Nero's killings of Christians in Rome. Although it's not the subject of the thread, I will put in my two cents in on the church-burning business; intellectually it's on par with the military's decision in Avatar to go destroy the Tree Of Souls. They somehow seem to believe that burning churches is like taking down a bloody alien mothership or something, and will automatically cause all the smiley proselytizing folk in the area to fall unconscious. That, and they seem to have forgotten that the 'invaders' pretty soundly thrashed them the last time they tried to start a war.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


  • Join Metal Forum

    joinus-home.jpg

  • Our picks

    • Whichever tier of thrash metal you consigned Sacred Reich back in the 80's/90's they still had their moments.  "Ignorance" & "Surf Nicaragura" did a great job of establishing the band, whereas "The American Way" just got a little to comfortable and accessible (the title track grates nowadays) for my ears.  A couple more records better left forgotten about and then nothing for twenty three years.  2019 alone has now seen three releases from Phil Rind and co.  A live EP, a split EP with Iron Reagan and now a full length.

      Notable addition to the ranks for the current throng of releases is former Machine Head sticksman, Dave McClean.  Love or hate Machine Head, McClean is a more than capable drummer and his presence here is felt from the off with the opening and title track kicking things off with some real gusto.  'Divide & Conquer' and 'Salvation' muddle along nicely, never quite reaching any quality that would make my balls tingle but comfortable enough.  The looming build to 'Manifest Reality' delivers a real punch when the song starts proper.  Frenzied riffs and drums with shots of lead work to hold the interest.


      There's a problem already though (I know, I am such a fucking mood hoover).  I don't like Phil's vocals.  I never had if I am being honest.  The aggression to them seems a little forced even when they are at their best on tracks like 'Manifest Reality'.  When he tries to sing it just feels weak though ('Salvation') and tracks lose real punch.  Give him a riffy number such as 'Killing Machine' and he is fine with the Reich engine (probably a poor choice of phrase) up in sixth gear.  For every thrashy riff there's a fair share of rock edged, local bar act rhythm aplenty too.

      Let's not poo-poo proceedings though, because overall I actually enjoy "Awakening".  It is stacked full of catchy riffs that are sticky on the old ears.  Whilst not as raw as perhaps the - brilliant - artwork suggests with its black and white, tattoo flash sheet style design it is enjoyable enough.  Yes, 'Death Valley' & 'Something to Believe' have no place here, saved only by Arnett and Radziwill's lead work but 'Revolution' is a fucking 80's thrash heyday throwback to the extent that if you turn the TV on during it you might catch a new episode of Cheers!

      3/5
      • Reputation Points

      • 10 replies
    • I
      • Reputation Points

      • 1 reply
    • https://www.metalforum.com/blogs/entry/52-vltimas-something-wicked-marches-in/
      • Reputation Points

      • 3 replies

    • https://www.metalforum.com/blogs/entry/48-candlemass-the-door-to-doom/
      • Reputation Points

      • 1 reply
    • Full length number 19 from overkill certainly makes a splash in the energy stakes, I mean there's some modern thrash bands that are a good two decades younger than Overkill who can only hope to achieve the levels of spunk that New Jersey's finest produce here.  That in itself is an achievement, for a band of Overkill's stature and reputation to be able to still sound relevant four decades into their career is no mean feat.  Even in the albums weaker moments it never gets redundant and the energy levels remain high.  There's a real sense of a band in a state of some renewed vigour, helped in no small part by the addition of Jason Bittner on drums.  The former Flotsam & Jetsam skinsman is nothing short of superb throughout "The Wings of War" and seems to have squeezed a little extra out of the rest of his peers.

      The album kicks of with a great build to opening track "Last Man Standing" and for the first 4 tracks of the album the Overkill crew stomp, bash and groove their way to a solid level of consistency.  The lead work is of particular note and Blitz sounds as sneery and scathing as ever.  The album is well produced and mixed too with all parts of the thrash machine audible as the five piece hammer away at your skull with the usual blend of chugging riffs and infectious anthems.  


      There are weak moments as mentioned but they are more a victim of how good the strong tracks are.  In it's own right "Distortion" is a solid enough - if not slightly varied a journey from the last offering - but it just doesn't stand up well against a "Bat Shit Crazy" or a "Head of a Pin".  As the album draws to a close you get the increasing impression that the last few tracks are rescued really by some great solos and stomping skin work which is a shame because trimming of a couple of tracks may have made this less obvious. 

      4/5
      • Reputation Points

      • 4 replies
×
×
  • Create New...