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Re: spirituality Iceni, Firstly, I agree with your point about tolerance. The word "tolerance", in the parlance of our times, seems to no longer mean that you actually tolerate someone or something, merely that you allow it to exist without driving to destroy it outright, which is difficult with how much you detest the thing in question. Especially recently, we're very much transitioning into a black and white world, one against another, "good versus evil", where there is only a right way and a wrong way, as opposed to your way, my way, and our way. It also serves as a distraction for the weak willed, you can feel easily justified in your pitiful, fearful existence if you follow the whims of others in going against whichever side they have chosen as your opposition for you, which has dumbed down our insecure society further than should be possible in the "information age". As to the rest of your post, no, you're certainly not obnoxious, at least not to me. My dad and my in-laws are both Christians, my in-laws to a somewhat fundamentalist extent, so I've heard my share of regurgitated sermons from my in-laws, though my dad is a bit more like you, believing steadfastly, yet questioning and contemplating before integrating something into his platform of faith. I don't agree with him on everything, but I can certainly respect this approach, as this is where religion and spirituality are divided, that the repeated practices and dogmas that you learn must have a place in your life, as opposed to trying to shape your life to be like your teacher's. Of course empirical data can only get you so far, but it is as you said, merely a leaping off point, as unless you're someone who trusts yourself completely, you would have to make the "leap of faith" beyond that. Faith is defined as believing something without objective proof, and as there is no objective proof to substantiate claims of any religion or belief structure, this is mostly all that there is to go on for attempting to pinpoint the metaphysical. Of course, philosophy deals largely with the metaphysical and epistemological, yet this is done mostly through reasoning, and still doesn't offer any concrete proof, despite being (in my opinion) one of the more solid methods for such definition. Logic could certainly help with this, though again, I feel that as the spiritual realm exists outside of our own, it likely possesses its own set of rules which is likely beyond our understanding, so logic at our level does not seem all that useful to me. Again, this could just be my skepticism talking, but logic is technically only logic for humans, and beings that may have a different perspective, rules, and motivations would probably have a different set of logic as well. Logic only helps for what we can actually understand, which in the scope of things is probably not much, though I can see your point about it applying to ethics for society. Obviously, with cases like Mormonism, there is actually physical evidence to disprove many of their ludicrous claims, like the second coming of Christ having already occurred here in North America, with the Native Americans having descended of the Israelites that somehow managed trans-continental travel about a thousand years before anyone else had the capability. Also, their claim that the Garden of Eden was actually located around Jackson County, Missouri is easily refutable. I had a friend that went to BYU, and got his degree in anthropology with a minor in archaeology, but his archaeological experience is not recognized by anyone in the field, as BYU cannot accurately teach this field without defying their own religious beliefs. I don't really feel like getting into how whacky that religion is right now, as we're attempting to avoid religious discussion, but I was driving more at your point about your conclusion couldn't be disproved by evidence if it were to be seen as worthy. Of course all major religions (except Hinduism) claim that their way is the "only right way", but I feel that this was created long ago to help protect their belief from fading into obscurity. Honestly, if you were to tell somebody what you thought, but didn't tell them that your way was the only right way, what is there to stop them from believing the person from the religion down the street who does claim that their way is the only right way? All major religions have to claim this, which is an inherent flaw within the religious structure (again, in my opinion). If I had to place my beliefs within any kind of label, it would be somewhere between deism, gnosticism, and panentheism. You are correct, as all of those labels seem to commonly reject the benevolence of the divine, which would sort out the argument from evil, but my belief regarding the logic of other realms being alternate to our own would also help with that problem. Ethics are an interesting subject that I haven't delved far into, favoring the metaphysical and epistemological sides of philosophy, so I had best not delve into the subject without having done some more research. I would honestly hope that your choice for Christianity isn't merely because "it's the only one [you're] left with", because I know that I would not be thrilled about sticking with a belief merely because I couldn't find a more compatible one out there, which is actually one of the main reasons why I departed from religion. I wouldn't consider myself a happy individual, as I don't have any real hope for the future and am pretty disgusted by the bulk of humanity, but I do find solace when contemplating on the metaphysical, despite my cynical outlook.

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Re: spirituality my reluctance to accept the existance of a God, Gods or much of the metaphysical stems from being mindfucked through spending so long in the catholic school system, I would like to think there is something in this realm but without experiencing it first hand I'm reluctant to take that leap of faith, as I said my experiences shape my beliefs, more specifically my interpretation of my experiences shape my beliefs explaining why I believe we maintain at least some level of consciousness after death (ghosts or whatever you want to call them in truth it's far more complicated then that I would think) but how I at this stage don't believe in heaven, hell or god or the devil

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Re: spirituality

Iceni, Firstly, I agree with your point about tolerance. The word "tolerance", in the parlance of our times, seems to no longer mean that you actually tolerate someone or something, merely that you allow it to exist without driving to destroy it outright, which is difficult with how much you detest the thing in question. Especially recently, we're very much transitioning into a black and white world, one against another, "good versus evil", where there is only a right way and a wrong way, as opposed to your way, my way, and our way. It also serves as a distraction for the weak willed, you can feel easily justified in your pitiful, fearful existence if you follow the whims of others in going against whichever side they have chosen as your opposition for you, which has dumbed down our insecure society further than should be possible in the "information age". (...) I would honestly hope that your choice for Christianity isn't merely because "it's the only one [you're] left with", because I know that I would not be thrilled about sticking with a belief merely because I couldn't find a more compatible one out there, which is actually one of the main reasons why I departed from religion. I wouldn't consider myself a happy individual, as I don't have any real hope for the future and am pretty disgusted by the bulk of humanity, but I do find solace when contemplating on the metaphysical, despite my cynical outlook.
Concerning tolerance: I wasn't really talking about a black and white world. I was saying we live a world of grey shades that despises contrast. As far as compatibility is concerned, I find that dealing with 'difficulties' in Christianity improves my character. This process wouldn't be present if I struck out by myself and created a spirituality of my own invention with which to frame the world. True, the 'religion' might be logically airtight but there would be no pressure to confront brutal truths about existence. In seeking compatibility, the inherent value of struggling with apparent problems would almost inevitably disappear, at least in some small measure. You could make this allegation about any religion, but I find that aside from a few minor editorial remarks I haven't got any complaints about Christianity. However, since it can in fact take these editorial remarks and still stand, I don't see any reason to turn my back on it at this point. Understood correctly, I'd say it really is the best way of understanding the world. That's why I adhere to it. I will say that I don't have hope for the future of humanity. Atheists don't believe in God - I don't believe in man. I think Omar Bradley stated the paradigm of the modern world quite well: "We live in a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants."
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Re: spirituality

yeah we're pretty much doomed it's just a question of who starts it' date=' my money's on North Korea[/quote'] When Bradley's talking about 'nuclear giants' he's commenting generally about technological advances. The irony of the modern world is that we're phenomenally intelligent from a scientific standpoint but we're juvenile in our ethics. That's what he's trying to say. It's not a comment on nuclear proliferation or nuclear war.
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Re: spirituality

This has been a trend for the last several years, we have had many large leaps in technology, but humanity as a whole has gotten dumber at the same time. The average vocabulary of Americans has been diminishing rapidly for years, yet everyone has more information at their fingertips than at any other time in history, which I feel is more than just a little ridiculous.
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This has been a trend for the last several years, we have had many large leaps in technology, but humanity as a whole has gotten dumber at the same time. The average vocabulary of Americans has been diminishing rapidly for years, yet everyone has more information at their fingertips than at any other time in history, which I feel is more than just a little ridiculous.
Not really what I was aiming at either, but this is true. The irony is that the very technological advancement seems to convince people that they don't need to learn. This serves as part of the basis for progressivism - which is essentially a fallacy of chronology turned into a way of life, the idea that newer is better. It seems pretty common to simply toss out (or 'reinterpret') an old philosopher or an old author simply because they lived in 'a more ignorant age'. Because we don't want to objectively assess their merits (that would require standards, which the modern world isn't fond of), we instead pretend that their inability to relate to us (which may be in and of itself an untrue concept) will necessarily make them irrelevant. Our very advancements and ability to learn seem to have inadvertently caused a complacency about acquiring knowledge, as we become absorbed in our own achievements.
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Re: spirituality it's a method of social control, the rapid technological advancement removes a desire to question what is actually happening in most people, it's actually quite distressing, like living in Brave New World without the sex, drugs or complex societal arrangement

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I love almost all metal (Probably an overstatement, whatever), but is insulting religion really needed? I'm totally cool with someone not believing in God, that's their choice, not mine, but do you really need to go a burn down a church for people to notice you? I always thought that the way to get respect was to make music and tour and work hard to get to the top. But now apparently now it's you worship the devil and burn down churches and bibles. I'm not a huge religious person ether, so answer me this: Is the whole "Anti Religion" really necessary?

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Metalheads have been burning churches down for more than twenty years now. It's a respected tradition. Is this whole "Anti-Church-Burning" thing really necessary?:D I'm kidding. But the whole point of writing extreme music like metal is to do something that's important to you. So some people write about their religious beliefs, some people write about politics, some people about girlfriends; whatever's important enough that it's worth writing a song about. I personally write a lot about friends and family members that I've lost. I've had plenty of negative experiences with people of faith, so I have an easy time identifying with anti-religious sentiments in music. I generally don't let it affect my lyrics. Worshiping the devil is just as fruitless and misguided as worshiping anything else IMO, and it's also your right in this country if you so choose. Burning books with whatever content is a legitimate form of protest. If you commit violent acts towards animals or people or their property, you're a criminal. None of that really has anything to do with music. edit - I'd also add that in some other countries it's a lot more dangerous to protest against religion. A lot of it here probably started off being used for shock value (I read somewhere that Glen Benton burned the upside-down cross into his forehead on a dare from one of the Slayer guys when they were drunk one night). But the subject of religion has become a lot more polarized in this country recently, for political reasons, and I really do hate what the conversation has turned into.

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I've part written one set of lyrics about religion brought about by 12 years in the catholic education system. I am very critical of organised religions but have no problem with individuals who believe in whatever. Do I approve of church burnings? no of course not it gives ALL metal a bad reputation. Do I understand why some may feel compelled to do such things? no I don't and I never will. Am I ok with songs which actively attack religion? yes I am it is a legitimate form of expression and protest. Provided this sentiment does not turn violent I have absolutely no issues here.

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I don't think it is necessary but I think it achieves the "shock value" people want, Back in my teen's I would have been all "fuck yeah burn all the churches!" but now as an adult it just saddens me to see beautiful historic buildings (I am speaking architecture, not the religious side) burnt down through some fool's misguided idea that in doing so they are appeasing Satan.

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That's exactly my point. There's no need to resort to violence and damage the reputation of an entire genre. Music is about telling stories, expressing oneself and peaceful protest. Music is not a vessel for encouraging hatred and violence. I can relate to the anti-religious sentiment most of the time though.

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Well I'll tell you one thing, people in Norway are mostly Christian so there are some people who feel a heavy oppression from the christian religion and I can see why. This leaves them few options and burning churches is one of them. This is not because they hate god but because they want to be free to express themselves in the way they see fit, I think there was a poll in the late 90's that said 90% of Norway had some sort of Christian beliefs, this lead to some people being suffocated by religion and in an attempt to get away they burn churches. I can understand some church burnings since a lot of them have to do with people being smothered with religion to the point of despising it. I was raised in a hardcore christian family and was criticized when I listened to metal and mind you this was just Heavy and Glam metal so you can imagine how my family felt when I got into extreme metal. Point is that some of these church burnings are simply kids and adults with suppressed emotions trying to express themselves in some way. I don't feel that they are necessary but I do understand why people who were oppressed would do it.

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*sighs* I always see people trying to guess what's happens after death or is there a deity or group of deities. I do not know what awaits me after I die and I feel that it does not affect me at this time. I will not worry about such things because I am wiling to accept whatever comes next. There is no way to know if you have experienced something not of this world because we don't know if what we experienced is something physical or not. The sheer fact that we cannot define what is or isn't metaphysical mean that we cannot say with certainty that we felt or saw something belonging to the metaphysical world. There is and cannot be at this time any way to provide conclusive evidence to prove the existence or lack there of, of a world beyond our own. I personally am fine with accepting that certain things are beyond our comprehension and definition and will continue to live by my values and moral compass rather than depending on someone else to guide me. I know right from wrong based on what I think and what I have seen and through my experiences I base my values which serves as my guide morally. I do not need to concern myself with something I couldn't possibly hope to understand as it will only cause people to have different views and cause division amongst people which is the last thing we need. I feel that people can believe in something after death but sitting there and trying to understand it is a waste of time and detrimental to humanity as a whole.

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