What's on your mind?

[RelentlessOblivion]

I agree, there’s a difference between portraying those stereotypes to emphasise villainy, and using them as thin allegories for out groups, the latter being by far the rarer case. I’m i’m not saying it’s a problem for all authors, or even for most, and the left or prone to overreacting when it comes to anything, which could be even potentially offensive, but there are some authors who do use stereotypes in a harmful way.

[Dead1]

How many of those stereotypes are still common enough to be associated with those things today?  I mean Enid Blyton wrote most of her stuff in the 1950s ie 60-70 years ago!  Since then stereotypes have changed considerably and many are no longer really relevant.  

 

In any case goblins are portrayed as nasty evil ugly brutal characters today as well.  Does that mean we have to ban Lord of the Rings or Dungeons and Dragons because their goblins and orks are all non-white, have big noses and are nasty?  

[AlSymerz]

Yeah lets ban D&D and LOTR!!

[GoatmasterGeneral]

8 hours ago, AlSymerz said:

Yeah lets ban D&D and LOTR!!

We should be so lucky. But then would they force half the world's metal bands to change their Tolkien inspired names and album titles? Guess it depends if they wanna ban Lovecraft too. If they were to ban both we might not have many metal bands left.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

11 hours ago, SurgicalBrute said:

Almost no one is making these connections between evil monsters and messed up stereotypes until some goof comes along and points it out. How does it actually benefit anyone to tie these things together?

There is as I'm sure you're aware, a certain segment of society that needs crap to bitch about. And if they can't find anything organically they're quite willing and very capable of manufacturing something out of nothing in their quest for sanctimonious outrage. The really sad part as you've just said is that by claiming the big nosed money grubbing goblins must represent the Jews for instance, they're just reinforcing the very stereotypes they'd wish to see eradicated. 

[SurgicalBrute]

1 hour ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Guess it depends if they wanna ban Lovecraft too. If they were to ban both we might not have many metal bands left.

They've been pushing for that for years given that Lovecraft was actually pretty racist for a lot of his life. Funny thing is, those types of people always seem to overlook that towards his later years, once he actually began to get out into the world more, he realized how wrong he'd been and recanted

[AlSymerz]

5 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

We should be so lucky. But then would they force half the world's metal bands to change their Tolkien inspired names and album titles? Guess it depends if they wanna ban Lovecraft too. If they were to ban both we might not have many metal bands left.

Hmmm, okay so the ban needs a little more thought.....unlike most of the bans we see these days.

 

[Dead1]

7 hours ago, SurgicalBrute said:

They've been pushing for that for years given that Lovecraft was actually pretty racist for a lot of his life. Funny thing is, those types of people always seem to overlook that towards his later years, once he actually began to get out into the world more, he realized how wrong he'd been and recanted

He was also alive in a different era with different cultural values.

As a student of history, I don't think we can judge people in the past behaving in ways we view badly.   We can learn from them and try not to repeat the same be it racism or slavery or building pyramids of skulls of slaughtered people like Mongols did.

 

I wish people showed more outrage to modern horrors - eg there are more people living in slave like conditions now than in any time in history.  4% of Malawi's population are actual slaves.    We now have slaves in the western world (at least 15,000 in Australia).

We have increasing homelessness, drug and alcohol abuse, inequality, mass wage theft.

 

But instead the wokerati focus on words in old books or which toilets people can use.

 

It's why I don't view modern progressives as progressives.  They are just useful idiots for the ruling classes.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Some on the left do buy into the culture war bullshit it’s true, but there are still some actual progressives out there. The exception being Australia where faux centrist politics rules one party and excessive conservatism the other. However, you look at it, though in most western countries, Progressives have very little influence because establishment politicians will always either water down or out right vote against policies which would benefit the people.

[Dead1]

Those faux progressives are all through out the English speaking world -   Justin Trudeaux from Cannuckland and Jacinta Ardern rom Kiwliand are prime examples.  The faux progressive media loves them despite them being essentially neoliberals peddling more rich getting richer schemes.

True progressivism had its last hurrah in the early 1980s and has since been obliterated.

 

Even the bulk of the environmentalists movement pushes schemes that are just loop holes to pollute (eg emissions trading).

 

 

[RelentlessOblivion]

Bernie still seems to be carrying the flag but yes it does appear world Politics is taken increasingly Conservative turn.

[Dead1]

7 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

Bernie still seems to be carrying the flag but yes it does appear world Politics is taken increasingly Conservative turn.

Bernie's it for the western speaking world and he ain't getting no younger>

 

 

In other news, a great example of our fucked Australia is - a client of my wife's is having an increasingly violent  breakdown in a public square outside a government building next to the main police station.

Ambulance called but these are increasingly unavailable and estimated availability unknown even though this building is 5 minute drive from hospital (I've known them not to turn up for instances where a pacemaker stopped and the person fainted or when a kid was hurt at our school).

Cops called but they won't come - not their job apparently.

Mental Health emergency unit (I work with these jokers) called but they are now apparently office based - why do we pay for a car for them?!?  The team is meant to be responding to emergencies.  It's literally their reason to exist.  

Let's pretend to stop having these services and just sack these lazy fucking, complaining bastards.

We seriously need to have a jackbooted heel placed on the throats of all these lazy fucking entitled overpaid shitheads who refuse to work. 

 

 

 

[JonoBlade]

21 hours ago, SurgicalBrute said:

...once he actually began to get out into the world more, he realized how wrong he'd been and recanted

I guess before that he was the equivalent of an incel with no friends living in his Mom's basement. He didn't have access to an internet connection, just a bunch of pen pals publishing in zany magazines. 

If a lot of these dudes with wild imaginations just wrote it down as fiction and stopped self-referentially believing it, that would be progress.

[AlSymerz]

Oh no, time to be outraged again. Dr Suess, Roald Dahl, and now Ian Flemming.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/27/james-bond-novels-to-be-reissued-with-racial-references-removed

RAGE RAGE RAGE. Someone is editing books, someone is changing words, time to rush out and buy the kids of today all the James Bond novels so they can read them all in their unedited glory.

[Thatguy]

I read one of the James Bond novels years and years ago. It were roobbish.

It was so bad I can't even remember which one it was.

Storm in a fucking tea cup, but let them sink without trace I say.

[AlSymerz]

I don't think I ever read one. I also gave up watching the movies decades ago. But it does beg the question what books does Doc like?

36 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Storm in a fucking tea cup, but let them sink without trace I say.

Fuck you and your opinions. The world needs more people outraged over menial things so take your tea cup and saucer and and ram it up your arse!

 

[Dead1]

You guys obviously never read the "First They Came" poem by Martin Niemoller in 1946.

 

"First they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"

 

 

Censorship and authoritarianism (or indeed anything) don't start overnight, they're creeping influences.  At some point they become the norm. 

At some stage it will be more than just making old novels PC, it will be rewriting or banning (cancelling) things.  In fact we already have cancel culture becoming a thing.

Indeed these kind of changes are literally attempts to avoid cancel culture (and thus diminished revenues).

And at some point fear of cancelation/censorship/worse etc results in people being scared to say anything - essentially any argument is stilled.

 

(Australians already do this self censorship - our defamation laws are effectively legalised self censorship that has helped created a culture of complete compliance where the government and large corporations can do anything).

 

And I did read a Fleming novel once and it was rubbish but still.

[RelentlessOblivion]

As I’ve already said publishers are businesses, they are making changes in an attempt to sell more books. Welcome to late stage capitalism, where all that matters is the bottom line. I will start to worry about publishes editing the books which they own the rights over when those changes are mandated by the government. I do have a much more important question though: why is it that a publisher announcing they are making some alterations to the works of Dahl or Fleming causes instant backlash, but the banning of literally thousands of books bye state governments in Florida for example, garners no attention whatsoever?

[Dead1]

31 minutes ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

As I’ve already said publishers are businesses, they are making changes in an attempt to sell more books. Welcome to late stage capitalism, where all that matters is the bottom line. I will start to worry about publishes editing the books which they own the rights over when those changes are mandated by the government. I do have a much more important question though: why is it that a publisher announcing they are making some alterations to the works of Dahl or Fleming causes instant backlash, but the banning of literally thousands of books bye state governments in Florida for example, garners no attention whatsoever?

 

Tacit unwritten societal censorship is more powerful than government laws.  In fact cultural values always trump laws. Corruption in Russia, slavery in Mauritania and honour killings in Pakistan are all illegal, yet all these laws are ignored by large sections of society at every level.  The cultural values are stronger than whatever repercussions the law may inflict.

Even here in Australia there are segments of the community where female and LGBTIQ+ rights are not respected, despite laws and other government actions to enshrine it.

(And no, education doesn't fix it)..

As for books being banned in Florida, that sucks big time.  But my family doesn't live in Florida (or indeed Russia, Mauritania or Pakistan). 

But the books we read are published by these publishers.

And at some point the changes made by publishers may be far less innocent.

 

Remember the goals of the wokerati are the same as that of right wing fundamentalists - remoulding society into their own vision*.   They won't stop just because Oompa Loompahs are now gender neutral or James Bond is no longer referred to as a white male.

 

And the level of change is accelerating - toppling statues of Captain Cook and rewriting books to be more PC as well as overturning pro-abortion precedents in US Supreme Court and Donald Trump being president were unimaginable even in 2010!

 

The old egalitarian model is being dismantled by both sides.  

 

*I don't begrudge them - in fact I appreciate that both right wing fundamentalists and wokerati actually stand for something other than consumerism even though I don't agree with either of their ideologies.  But that's pluralism.

 

[Thatguy]

I have known that poem since I was a teenager worried about being drafted and marching in the Moratorium demonstrations in Sydney

And I largely agree with you. But most of the 'anti-woke' people I come across (and I don't meet many - selection bias applies) just want to benefit as rudely from their privilege as they always have. People can dissent without being arseholes, but many chose not to.

If I ruled the world I would cancel the term 'cancel culture', which is mainly used as a term of abuse. In the USA at least most book banning and banning of teaching of actual history comes from the fascists while they self-righteously whine about being cancelled.

But this is true.

2 hours ago, Dead1 said:

(Australians already do this self censorship - our defamation laws are effectively legalised self censorship that has helped created a culture of complete compliance where the government and large corporations can do anything).

[Dead1]

4 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

And I largely agree with you. But most of the 'anti-woke' people I come across (and I don't meet many - selection bias applies) just want to benefit as rudely from their privilege as they always have. 

 

I wholeheartedly agree.  They usually fit a certain demographic and all seem to watch Sky/Fox News! 

There in lies the problem - we have two very noisy polarising groups jostling for power.  Neither are really concerned with improving people's lives.

Any kind of other ideas are drowned out.

 

And they're clueless idiots - eg yesterday when government announced the cap on super tax perks, there were idiots from both sides ranting and raving ("leftie" people claiming it was against working class (who has $3 million in super at age 65?!?), right wing claiming it was theft).

[GoatmasterGeneral]

47 minutes ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

As I’ve already said publishers are businesses, they are making changes in an attempt to sell more books. Welcome to late stage capitalism, where all that matters is the bottom line. I will start to worry about publishes editing the books which they own the rights over when those changes are mandated by the government. I do have a much more important question though: why is it that a publisher announcing they are making some alterations to the works of Dahl or Fleming causes instant backlash, but the banning of literally thousands of books bye state governments in Florida for example, garners no attention whatsoever?

It garners a fair amount of attention here in the States Blivvie, like all the rest of the idiotic shit the right-wingers do. The neo-fascist governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, has even picked up the nickname DeSatan in lefty circles. There has been much talk he will run for President in 2024 (even though he has about as much charisma as a turd) and we're waiting to see him go up head to head against Benedict Donald in next year's election primary cycle and let the two of them cannibalize each other. To be clear though he has not outright banned any books, they're just removing scores of them from public school libraries. Floridians are still able to legally purchase, own and read these books.

As far as backlash is concerned, the way it works (at least here in the States) is people care about and will get outraged about shit if you bring it to their direct attention. But most people are incredibly lazy and will not take the time or make any effort to seek out shit to be outraged about on their own. Most prefer their media outlets of choice to spoon-feed everything to them and tell them what to think. Except of course for the millions of Americans who don't consume news in any form and pay no attention whatsoever to any of this crap.

[AlSymerz]

40 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I have known that poem since I was a teenager worried about being drafted and marching in the Moratorium demonstrations in Sydney

Did you burn your bra as well?

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

34 minutes ago, AlSymerz said:

Did you burn your bra as well?

 

I'm sure he saved it knowing that one day you'd need it for your moobs.

[AlSymerz]

Like anything of his would fit me.