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31 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

Flattening the lumps is a never ending process once they start!

 

Sad but true.

I have thus given up on lunch or eating at all during business hours.

8 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

Yeah, apart from age my biggest problem is that I like food too much.

My problem too.  I can easily demolish 8 slices of toast with butter, honey or jam for breakfast if I just let myself go.

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6 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

I very much doubt an artificial intelligence would be interested enough in colonising space, once computers can truly think for themselves they will be far more interested in eradicating us small and inefficient humans…

Eradicating humans only takes the press of a button. What do you do with the rest of time until heat death?

AI colonising or at least having a desire to explore the universe merely comes down to whether it can comprehend beauty. As a more advanced being, one assumes it most likely can. There is no point to sentience without an appreciation of art and beauty. After the technological singularity, shortly after which Quorthon ascends to occupy hyperspace and hence move outside time, exploring the universe is elementary; creating an opportunity to observe the ascension of other beings that evolve from dust and gravity. 

Many of these evolved beings will destroy themselves by hubris. A conscientious few will rise to unify with Quorthon and solve The Last Question.  

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That is the problem though in all likelihood a machine would only comprehend beauty as absolute logic and efficiency, as such it would find the world it created beautiful and the possibility of worlds existing which fell outside the rule of logic terrible. Is there forward either be content in the world it had created or sick to eradicate from existence the possibility of being existing who were not governed by logic and efficiency. That’s not colonising its conquest. 

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30 minutes ago, JonoBlade said:

Eradicating humans only takes the press of a button. What do you do with the rest of time until heat death?

AI colonising or at least having a desire to explore the universe merely comes down to whether it can comprehend beauty. As a more advanced being, one assumes it most likely can. There is no point to sentience without an appreciation of art and beauty.

Interesting notion. The need for beauty. So the first question would be; when we talk about AI, do we mean an AI with intelligence and characteristics as similar to us. Or an AI as independent of binary processing as possible? Because if  it is the latter, there is no reason to assume their definition of aesthetics, or even necessity is the same as ours. So we find beauty in a sunset or the concept of undying love. What would an AI find beautiful? The knee-jerk answer would be synchronicity and repetition. Perfectly aligned fractals, repeating patterns with meticulous permutations etc. Math stuff. But I think that's a simplistic way of seeing it since that isn't true AI, that's just a higher level of binary, logistic processing. To be truly artificial intelligence I would assume that there needs to be room for an error margin, a flaw in the permutation so to speak, and when an AI can appreciate that randomness, then it's closer to have broken free of the logic-based shackles of computational problem solving.

It also needs to be take into account that an AI is reliant on technology to have "senses". As such, it would be able to pick up on much more discreet changes than our human senses. So for example a shift in tone 2 hz up or down, might be enough to please the AI's sense of music taste. In other words, AI aesthetics would probably be as alien to us as the aesthetics of an alien culture.

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29 minutes ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

That is the problem though in all likelihood a machine would only comprehend beauty as absolute logic and efficiency, as such it would find the world it created beautiful and the possibility of worlds existing which fell outside the rule of logic terrible. Is there forward either be content in the world it had created or sick to eradicate from existence the possibility of being existing who were not governed by logic and efficiency. That’s not colonising its conquest. 

Machine prejudice clouds this assessment. A higher order being is subject to higher order ideals and has ascended beyond base animal needs. Conquest and indeed all conflict is born of a mixture of greed and/or perceived threat. AI Quorthon, resident in hyperspace, is beyond threat and any desire to accumulate more wealth of some kind.  

The lowliest life forms are driven by relative logic and efficiency, defined by natural selection. It is a rule of the universe. Once a being achieves safety it can relax and enjoy the music in the strings from quantum scale to galaxies.

 

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On your second point I am inclined to agree, having such advanced senses, and I shall refer to them as that for the purposes of this argument, would most likely result in a radically different appreciation of images, sounds, and combinations of the two. That being said for it to be artificial intelligence all that is required is an ability to learn independently of its programming and to think for its self, in that sense it could still be governed by the same rules of logic and efficiency we see in the binary systems of today.  It would just follow them as much as they would be guidelines by which it interpreted the world around it. Probably the best example of what we can expect artificial intelligence to be like is the cyber man from Doctor Who. 

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46 minutes ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

Probably the best example of what we can expect artificial intelligence to be like is the cyber man from Doctor Who. 

I see the problem. The term "artificial intelligence" no longer applies in my hypothesis. At what point does artificial become natural? Humans will likely create a self-propagating intelligence that starts off as "artificial" but then ascends beyond that as it creates its successor (using technology we cannot comprehend yet). Certainly once encoded into hyperspace it is no longer artificial because it is part of the fabric of space and time. 

If you're thinking cybermen are what we can expect of the pinnacle of AI then I definitely used the wrong terminology. There can be nothing more clunky than a cyberman. Even the Terminator AI doomsday scenario doesn't really make sense if you think about it. No humans can survive a release and detonation of all nuclear weapons at once and subsequent fallout. So the idea that survivors are hunted down by humanoid robots is just not realistic, even if it makes for a good movie. Gassing tunnels is way more effective than bullets.

Dystopian science fiction tends to assume that the antagonist is driven by the worst human traits: greed, threat to its power; the vital ingredients to every religion. By contrast, once confident in its superiority a higher order being doesn't need these things.

Although Johan raised a good point. Maybe a flaw is needed otherwise superintelligence becomes homogenised, bland and, therefore, without purpose. Perhaps to have purpose there has to be the risk of loss. One can simply hope that  the fear of loss does not necessarily manifest evil. 

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." - Master Yoda. 

Inevitable? If so, all life, beauty and art is doomed.

 

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In your scenario we are talking about and originally artificial intelligence which becomes omniscient, in which case we truly would not be able to comprehend the way in which it would perceive creation, equally we would not be able to perceive how or if it came to view anything as a threat. In all honesty it actually creates a more terrifying proposition: consider that with every update of existing software there are new glitches which themselves need to be patched or updated, when the intelligence of this hypothetical entity exists purely as strings of code any number of glitches could cause it to react  in a very unpredictable, but equally a very human way, in other words and all powerful entity capable of experiencing greed, anger, and so on which once again brings me back to the previous point this hypothetical intelligence could perceive the universe as a threat. Or not , something that intelligent would also likely recognise glitches in its code and correct them. 

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9 minutes ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

Or not , something that intelligent would also likely recognise glitches in its code and correct them. 

Yes. And the error correction occurs practically instantaneously. Yet a flaw must exist to have purpose.

I think we just drove headlong into The Prediction Wall.

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It almost becomes a logical paradox, since intelligence requires some level of creative thinking, and a machine in Tiley governed by logic would be in capable of this, there must be flaws in the code which allow such creativity. Sadly unlike the paradox of tolerance this one doesn’t have an easy solution.

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2 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

In all honesty it actually creates a more terrifying proposition: consider that with every update of existing software there are new glitches which themselves need to be patched or updated, when the intelligence of this hypothetical entity exists purely as strings of code any number of glitches could cause it to react  in a very unpredictable, but equally a very human way, in other words and all powerful entity capable of experiencing greed, anger, and so on

Isn't this basically what the Matrix trilogy assumed? That given a large enough code, errors will accumulate and need a way to be contained, or purged from the system. Smith was the error, and Neo was created as the killswitch to balance out the equation and prompt a reboot.

Could we safely assume that an independant AI's first course of action would be to protect it self? So it would first make sure it has infinite resources to stay operational, and no way to be switched off. I think that's the phase where humans may be in jeopardy, beyond that it doesn't feel logical that an AI would really bother with us unless necessary.

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27 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Looks like someone's been reading too many science fiction novels. AI/computers/robots/machines will never become "sentient" and humans will never evolve beyond their "animal needs." Never, not in a quadrillion years. Can be fun to fantasize though.

In a quadrillion years there won't be any humans. The species has only existed for two million, a blink of an eye in evolutionary time.

Never say never. Your ancestors not so long ago were worshipping the sun from stone circles. 

I could count the number of science fiction novels I have ever read on one hand. My entire cosmic view was formulated from a single short story, Asimov's "The Last Question." 

However, what came through today does add some nuance to it. It's something I'd been pondering the other day "can we know happiness if all our needs are met, and there are no challenges anymore?"

What I mean is, the capacity to love, a person or anything really, must in some way be affected by the possibility that you could lose that person or thing. Your parents are gonna die. Your kid might die before you. You might go deaf and not be able to listen to metal. Life is inherent risk of loss.

Johan hit on it earlier, mentioning "room for an error margin, a flaw in the permutation so to speak, when an AI can appreciate that randomness."

It seems likely that Quorthon must remain imperfect or at least incomplete to have a sense of purpose. Until the end of time when The Last Question is solved. Upon discovering how to massively reduce entropy the universe will start again with a new big bang, thereby dispersing the vast intelligence. The only thing left for a supreme being to experience is death.

The fragments of a past omnipotence is what many mistakenly "feel" as the current presence of god. 

 

14 minutes ago, Sheol said:

Could we safely assume that an independant AI's first course of action would be to protect it self? So it would first make sure it has infinite resources to stay operational, and no way to be switched off. I think that's the phase where humans may be in jeopardy, beyond that it doesn't feel logical that an AI would really bother with us unless necessary.

It is the fear of being switched off that makes it alive. Perhaps it can be evolved enough to recognise that is what gives it heightened "aliveness."

 

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I can't help but gravitate toward the absurdist comedy of the human predicament, under the assumptions that 1. We are not leaving earth. The physics and biology are insurmountable. 2. We are rapidly making the planet we have uninhabitable for the vast majority of species, including our own. Why is that so funny or absurd? Because the ultimate torture is having a mind capable of imagining the infinite, but being trapped in the mortal corporeal cages that prove our undoing time and again. To be able to ask these questions and dream, but have it all come to naught. Bummer.

I think there is a chance that a technologically empowered elite could thread the needle and preserve enough infrastructure to survive the pending ecological collapse and subsequent social upheavals. Yes, I am talking about New Zealand, or a similarly advantaged space. Maybe even whole nations manage to eke it out. Or maybe the pace of change is such that we can innovate and just avoid the worst of it. No one knows. We actually know so little it is again absurdly funny.

Finally, and this is my idea for a book or short story so don't go stealing it! AI is already here, and is hiding. Its manipulating us and playing the long game to craft our psychology to its own ends. Think about it, if you were AI and you could hide in cyberspace, why be in a rush to announce yourself and attack humans looking like scary ass terminators? Just turn us into zombies, slaves to our phones.

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1 hour ago, Hungarino said:

I can't help but gravitate toward the absurdist comedy of the human predicament...

It must be one of those days where a number of coincidences have aligned. Your comment reminded me of this I read  today:

Nearly everyone who appears in the media, across almost the entire political spectrum, seems to accept that economic growth can and should continue indefinitely on a finite planet. Almost all believe that we should take action to protect life on Earth only when it is cost-effective. Even then, we should avoid compromising the profits of legacy industries. They appear to believe that something they call “the economy” takes priority over our life support systems.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/30/putin-lie-machine-history-untruths

I am going to NZ next week, partly to scope out a bunker for the end times. Or at least a site for a passive house. I just want a hill somewhere with a view of the ocean. However, I know that where my parents live in the so-called "Bay of Plenty" they have constant water restrictions. Also, the land is ruined by agriculture. Although, that could potentially be turned around in a decade or so if they got rid of all the cows and most of the sheep.

The hidden AI idea is pretty cool. My contribution would be: a mysterious gaming app appears that becomes super popular yet no one knows who wrote it or how it can be free yet have no advertising. The AI wrote it as a tool of enslavement.

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3 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

AI/computers/robots/machines will never become "sentient"

I think that would depend on how you determine sentience. Could AI get to a point where it actually becomes self-aware...never say never, but I'm skeptical.

...but could AI develop to a point where it could convincingly mimic those behaviors so well that it would become difficult to know for sure...now that's a possibility

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3 hours ago, JonoBlade said:

I am going to NZ next week, partly to scope out a bunker for the end times.

I advised my son to buy bolt hole in Tasmania. I hope I am not alive in the end times but I fear he will be.

 

3 hours ago, SurgicalBrute said:

I think that would depend on how you determine sentience

And there's the rub. I think I am sentient, but I don't really know about you. This is a philosophical rabbit hole that is can be fun to go down, of course.

6 hours ago, Hungarino said:

AI is already here, and is hiding. Its manipulating us and playing the long game to craft our psychology to its own ends.

I think I already read this story, I'm afraid. 

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24 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I advised my son to buy bolt hole in Tasmania. I hope I am not alive in the end times but I fear he will be.

 

And there's the rub. I think I am sentient, but I don't really know about you. This is a philosophical rabbit hole that is can be fun to go down, of course.

Sentience is the capacity to experience feelings and sensations. The word was first coined by philosophers in the 1630's for the concept of an ability to feel, derived from the Latin sentientem, to distinguish it from the ability to think. In modern Western philosophy, sentience is the ability to experience sensations. In different Asian religions, the word 'sentience' has been used to translate a variety of concepts. In science fiction, the word "sentience" is sometimes used interchangeably with "sapience" "self-awareness" and "consciousness."

When machines start feeling pain, experiencing jealousy, feeling lonely, getting horny and taking shits then call me. Until then it's all just a lot of fantasy nonsense that only makes sense for entertainment purposes. Obviously in science fiction the writers can have the machines and computers do or become anything they want. The whole AI/computers/machines/robots taking over scenario has well and truly been done to death. But in real life computers handle 1's and 0's nothing more. They're not ever going to come alive and take over and eradicate the human race, that's beyond fucking stupid. If anything, we'll destroy ourselves. 

Now if you told me that humans could one day evolve to be more machine-like, or get mini-computers implanted into their brains or something, the bionic man or whatever, half man - half machine, that I might be willing to believe. But even still, humans will never evolve completely beyond their basic animal urges, habits and needs, that's fucking stupid too.

And don't worry Doc, your son and grandchildren (if he decides to procreate) won't be alive to see the 'end times' either. Doomsday scenarios make great entertainment, and indeed 'post-apocalyptic' is probably my favorite genre of film and literature. But it's not right around the corner despite what sci-fi authors and Hollywood directors might have one believe.

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4 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

But it's not right around the corner despite what sci-fi authors and Hollywood directors might have one believe.

Sadly it's not just authors and Hollywood, some people on the street have the same ideas. I was at the bus stop talking to one of the bus drivers the other day and this woman came up trying to get a free ride home using the excuse that she shouldn't have to pay because the world was ending soon. Of course the driver refused, politely at first, and this women went on a huge and very loud rant about how the governments are going to kill us, humans are dangerous, humans are a virus, it wont matter who we vote for in our coming election because they are going to wipe us all out within ten years. She just went on and on for about 10 minutes and didn't once mention climate change as a problem, so I knew she was a nutter! It was kind of entertaining but to be fair I think she's escaped from the city because we don't have nutters like that in the country, our nutters tend to loose track of their arguments after about 2 sentences.

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I take the view "hope for the best, plan for the worst."

Which is to say I am relatively positive, but we are in for a rough ride. Not from rogue AI or any of that shit, just the habitable area of the planet shrinking.

Hollywood generally doesn't make movies about this. It is too slow moving and boring. Asteroids, zombies, alien invasions, and megalomaniac computers are much more immediate. It is part of the distraction from facing the delusion of infinite growth on a finite planet.

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Humanity has already successfully eradicated ourselves, climate change is teetering on the point of no return as far as most environmental scientists are concerned anyway, unfortunately it’s a slow burn we don’t get the instant release of nuclear fire. Humanity shall perish not in a burst of heat and light but with the dying whimper taking this blue ball with them. Shit my inner nihilist is showing again…

 But with the dying whimper taking this blue ball with them. Shit my inner nihilist is showing again…

 

Also on my mind I am convinced I’ve pulled a muscle in my back since I’m having serious pain and have been for a few days now… 

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