What's on your mind?

[GoatmasterGeneral]

I understand that there's not much drinkable water in the land of OZ which is a fair enough point, but in my post I said specifically Melbourne had 1,336 people per sq mile, not the whole country. And it looks to me on the map you provided like Melbourne along with its surrounding communities appears to be out of the desert in the temperate zone. I also mentioned specifically Stockholm, which appears to be on the east coast out of the mountainous region.

Wasn't asking why any of these places have the density they do or trying to imply that any of these metropolitan areas should have more inhabitants or less inhabitants or making any judgements at all about their densities. I was merely trying to illustrate for Johan how just because I live in New Jersey with 9 million other people doesn't mean we're all packed in like sardines where I am. And how even though California has 40 million residents most of them are all gathered in the horribly crowded cities, almost 20 million alone in the Bay Area so there are still many unspoiled rural areas left. 

The rest of the global cities were mentioned because I found it interesting that some of the cities I've always thought were supposedly the most densely populated, e.g. Tokyo & London, were actually less dense than NY where I happen to be from. I listed some other cities as well that might or might not have been near where we have various forum members. So sorry if my population density comparison post has upset you Deadly.

Launceston btw has about 400 people per square mile as does Brisbane. Alice Springs, 220. Darwin, 120. Perth 857. Sydney 1,444. Canberra 1,147. Kuala Lumpur 17,300. Bangkok 17,400. Ho Chi Minh City 24,500. Singapore 21,650. Jakarta 41,000. Seoul 42,000. Mumbai 54,000. Karachi 64,000. Shanghai 64,000. Manila 107,000 😲  Can't even imagine what it would feel like to live in a place with that many people.

[Natassja]

On 12/15/2021 at 9:14 AM, MacabreEternal said:

I got through on Monday after ten mins and got in next week 1.5 miles away, could have gone this week but too much on at work.  Hope the tooth gets better @Natassja

 

Thanks yeh I managed to get through booked for Tuesday. 

[Dead1]

1 hour ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

So sorry if my population density comparison post has upset you Deadly.

You raise some interesting points.  My big issue with the population density comparisons is more to do with "Big Australia" proponents who talk about how we need to pack more people into this country and often do compare us with Asian third world hellholes.  

We already have massive issues with water supply even here in Tassie eg despite a lot of rain,  Hobart has still had to introduce water restrictions this year.  Sydney and Adelaide have had major water shortages in the past.

Basically all the major cities will need desalination plants in the future and Sydney, Adelaide and Melbourne each have 1 and Perth has 2.  Relying on technology for such a basic good is insane.  

The big Australia proponents also believe in "vertical" living (ie apartments), infilling (ie putting apartments/houses in all available land in cities including existing industrial and recreation areas)  and ramping up population density and mass growth of cities into agricultural land.

Bizarrely these same guys don't talk about investing in infrastructure like schools, roads, hospitals etc.  There's certainly no talk of re-industrialisation.  Already road congestion is endemic in the big cities but even small ones like Launceston (it would take me 45 minutes to an hour  to travel 8.5 km in rush hour when I was at university over 15 years ago).

Literally their version of Australia is 70 million people by 2100 (currently 25 million).  Not sure why we need so many people except to prop up the out of control housing and ponzi superannuation (retirement benefits) industries as well as totally destroy living standards by ramping up labour supply. 

 

 

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

I would never advocate for apartment living, and I could never be happy living in an apartment, especially in a high rise. I don't know how people choose to do that even considering maybe there's a nice view. I've never even liked living in a house in the suburbs on streets with lots of houses all in a row although I have for most of my life. My dream would be to live in a small cabin in the woods where my nearest neighor would be far enough away that I couldn't see their dwelling from my own. If I didn't have a little kid to think about I would probably do just that. I do like to socialize a bit now and then with other people but not very often and I do it on my own terms, when I want, with who I want, I don't enjoy having lots of strangers around all the time.

Out of curiosity, why do these Big Australia proponents believe that you need to pack so many more people into your country? What do they think/claim would be the benefits? Trippling the population of a country in 80 years or just three generations seems pretty insane to me but I haven't really heard much about this. Obviously you couldn't hope to accomplish this simply through encouraging Aussies to have lots of babies even if there weren't steadily declining birth rates in the first world. So what do they think you should ship them in from China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines? Why, just for the sake of having more bodies? I feel like I'm missing something here.

[AlSymerz]

I don't think you'll find a right or wrong answer to that question. Some will claim we need population increases because we are under utilising what we have, both in resources and land. Some will claim we need more people to increases taxes, be it to feed the fat cats who are used to taking our money or be it to provide better services. Some claim we need more tax payers to continue to afford things like health care and aged pensions etc. Some even throw it out way more simply with ideas that we have to be more multicultural (because we can't all have enough kids to get there without immigration).

The problem is each and every statement can be backed up by the person making it, but none of them have to be totally justified. Claims that we can sustain triple the numbers don't have to be backed up with questions like "where do we house them", or "how do we feed them" because the person making the claim will cherry pick data to suit their situation, a situation that probably wont ever eventuate.

It's kind of like governments predicting what to do about climate change. It's good to look to the future and make suggestions about how things will play out but at the end of the day it's nothing more than guess work based on today's figures. Tomorrow someone will have a different set of figures that will change everything, and for all we know neither could be right.

Interestingly enough one doesn't go back much more than a decade to find academic studies that claimed Australia was only able to sustain 40 million people. Now we are told resources are depleting, the world is getting hotter and we are good to fit double that number in the same area. I'm sure there is a maximum number of people this country can sustain, but I'm also sure no one knows what the figure is.

 

[Dead1]

1 hour ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I would never advocate for apartment living, and I could never be happy living in an apartment, especially in a high rise. I don't know how people choose to do that even considering maybe there's a nice view. I've never even liked living in a house in the suburbs on streets with lots of houses all in a row although I have for most of my life. My dream would be to live in a small cabin in the woods where my nearest neighor would be far enough away that I couldn't see their dwelling from my own. If I didn't have a little kid to think about I would probably do just that. I do like to socialize a bit now and then with other people but not very often and I do it on my own terms, when I want, with who I want, I don't enjoy having lots of strangers around all the time.

Out of curiosity, why do these Big Australia proponents believe that you need to pack so many more people into your country? What do they think/claim would be the benefits? Trippling the population of a country in 80 years or just three generations seems pretty insane to me but I haven't really heard much about this. Obviously you couldn't hope to accomplish this simply through encouraging Aussies to have lots of babies even if there weren't steadily declining birth rates in the first world. So what do they think you should ship them in from China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines? Why, just for the sake of having more bodies? I feel like I'm missing something here.

I would hate living in apartments too.  I don't even like this new treeless suburb I am in.  

 

As for the big Australia policy, it seems to be a continuation of the "populate or perish" concept from the 1950s.  They thought after WWII they needed lots more people to be able to fight in whatever future wars were coming and be "swamped by Asians" (yep it was that overtly racist) - ironically most immigrants today are Chinese, Indians and Flipinos).

Of course this ignored the whole concept of nuclear weapons which would determine the outcome of WWIII, not number of bodies...it also ignores the fact that the Australian military has not significantly changed in size for decades (57,000 in 1995, 59,000 today and it's all smaller than 70,000 in 1985!).

 

The current thinking seems to be around:

 

1. Australia is too small a market to sustain industries - which is ironic because the country is now more deindustrialised with a population of 25 million than in 1970 when population was 12.5 million.  Industries keep shutting down here.

2. Ageing population which doesn't explain need to triple population until you realise the retirement benefits scheme (superannuation) is a ponzy scheme.  Literally you need to keep putting more money in than what people are taking out as pensions.  And with baby boomers retiring, the outflows are huge.  They are already increasing  compulsory superannuation contributions by employers from 9% to 12%!

3. Provide a supply of "skilled" labor to Australian business.  This includes doctors and engineers but also security guards, brick layers, shop assistants, secretaries, pet groomers and kitchen hands and even more bizarrely cops, judges, magistrates, soldiers and even Members of Parliament. Even Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander workers can be imported as immigrants!   

 

https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/working-in-australia/skill-occupation-list#

 

Truth is since convict times, Australian private enterprise has never spent much money or invested resources into training people.  Early on the colonial governments provided free skilled and unskilled labour in the form of convicts.  Now it's immigrants.

Funny thing is many immigrants come and never even do the job they came for.  My dad came as a car painter and then never worked a spray shop and instead worked as a cleaner and then factory worker.

 

 

In my opinion the real drivers are:

 

1. Due to low productivity, they need something to keep the economy growing.  More people does that (even though the individual pie might actually shrink)

2. Continue demand for housing and thus continue increasing house prices - an essential part of Australian economy.

3. Reduce working conditions by creating an influx of workers.  Basically jack up supply.  Note due to COVID there was actual pressure on wages to grow, at which point the government restarted mass immigration and there's talking of doubling net immigration.

4.  As mentioned above reduce business costs associated with training and education of workers.

Canada is doing the same thing too - looking at doubling population between now and 2100.  

[Sheol]

14 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Vernon Township where I live is 67.6 sq miles with 22,200 people which works out to 328 people per square mile. Compared to Metro New York City's 28,000 people per sq mile that's a world of difference. Metro Stockholm by contrast, the largest city in Scandinavia has 13,000 people per sq mile. I know you don't live down south near Stockholm Johan, but I figure maybe you've been there at least.

Indeed I have, many times. It's the closes town if you wanna see any international bands. Sure sometimes we get something here, but if you wanna see Iron Maiden or hell, even Gojira or Mastodon, off to Sthlm you go. For the record, I find Stockholm too crowded and smelly for my taste. I can visit, but I'd never wanna live there. I figure that Stockholm is the kind of city that's too big to be inviting as a whole, and too small to have any sort of separated sections/boroughs/districts that function as insular "small towns".

Quote

and dumb ass deer that want to jump out right in front of your car at night. But I guess nowhere's perfect.

Here we got reindeer and moose. Dumb motherfuckers run along the roads, licking the roadsalt. Cause a few hundred accidents every year, especially in the spring when the year old moose calfs are rejected by the mother and runs around all disoriented and sad.

14 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Vernon Township where I live is 67.6 sq miles with 22,200 people which works out to 328 people per square mile. Compared to Metro New York City's 28,000 people per sq mile that's a world of difference. Metro Stockholm by contrast, the largest city in Scandinavia has 13,000 people per sq mile. I know you don't live down south near Stockholm Johan, but I figure maybe you've been there at least.

Indeed I have, many times. It's the closes town if you wanna see any international bands. Sure sometimes we get something here, but if you wanna see Iron Maiden or hell, even Gojira or Mastodon, off to Sthlm you go. For the record, I find Stockholm too crowded and smelly for my taste. I can visit, but I'd never wanna live there. I figure that Stockholm is the kind of city that's too big to be inviting as a whole, and too small to have any sort of separated sections/boroughs/districts that function as insular "small towns".

Quote

and dumb ass deer that want to jump out right in front of your car at night. But I guess nowhere's perfect.

Here we got reindeer and moose. Dumb motherfuckers run along the roads, licking the roadsalt. Cause a few hundred accidents every year, especially in the spring when the year old moose calfs are rejected by the mother and runs around all disoriented and sad.

[JonoBlade]

14 hours ago, Natassja said:

Thanks yeh I managed to get through booked for Tuesday. 

I just got my booster shot half an hour ago. Turned out there was a walk-in clinic a short bike ride away (not the 13 miles if I had booked!). It was a half hour wait but done and dusted now. 

[Natassja]

43 minutes ago, JonoBlade said:

I just got my booster shot half an hour ago. Turned out there was a walk-in clinic a short bike ride away (not the 13 miles if I had booked!). It was a half hour wait but done and dusted now. 

Nice one 👍🏻 

[FatherAlabaster]

I've got mine set for the Monday after Christmas. Appointments around here filled up with a quickness today. 

Currently crossing my fingers that my car didn't suffer engine damage when the coolant system broke a couple months ago. Thing's been in and out of the shop ever since and it went into "limp in" mode on the highway twice today. For those unfamiliar, "limp in" mode is like a song that starts off with a great intro and solid riffs but then the chorus is lame and shitty.

Maybe I need to do an art rock project called Limp In Mode where every song is ruined by a terrible chorus. Maybe that would make me feel better about my goddamn car. Maybe a lobotomy would help.

[AlSymerz]

56 minutes ago, FatherAlabaster said:

For those unfamiliar, "limp in" mode is like a song that starts off with a great intro and solid riffs but then the chorus is lame and shitty.

 

Hehe, that about sums it up very well.

I've got a set of printed instructions in my old ute for how to get it out of limp mode while on the side of the road. Carried it with me since just after I got the thing because I never wanted to be stranded, but thankfully I've never needed it.

 

[Dead1]

Finally modern slavery in Australia is getting some mainstream media attention though  I doubt  they will change anything.

Australia is more and more a disgusting society.  I am to the point where  I think let the Chinese take over as there is nothing here worth salvaging.  In fact let them nuke us all and wash our degenerate filth away.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-18/visa-temporary-modern-slavery-new-australian-immigration/100645446

 

[AlSymerz]

That pretty much explains the fruit picking industry. We've got farmers screaming to import workers because Australian's don't want to work. While the actual truth is that Australian's wont work for what is essentially slave labour. 7:30 did a report on it a few months back and by the time the imported workers pay out their onsite accommodation, their food etc, which all goes back to the farm owner, the workers are earning something like $3 an hour, and often that money is held for 'safe keeping'. After all that the farmers still have the nerve to call Aussie's lazy because they wont work 14 hour days for less than $50.

 

[FatherAlabaster]

Right now it's looking like our first real snow of the season (scheduled to begin any minute now) will get washed away by a few hours of rain overnight, but it won't drop back below freezing immediately afterwards, which means that every outdoor surface in town won't be covered with a 1/8" thick layer of ice tomorrow, which is good news.

[MacabreEternal]

19 hours ago, FatherAlabaster said:

Thing's been in and out of the shop ever since and it went into "limp in" mode on the highway twice today. For those unfamiliar, "limp in" mode is like a song that starts off with a great intro and solid riffs but then the chorus is lame and shitty.

Maybe I need to do an art rock project called Limp In Mode where every song is ruined by a terrible chorus. Maybe that would make me feel better about my goddamn car. Maybe a lobotomy would help.

"Limp in Mode" was rumoured to be the working title for Limp Bizkit's comeback album.  Fred is so pissed at you right now.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

7 hours ago, FatherAlabaster said:

Right now it's looking like our first real snow of the season (scheduled to begin any minute now) will get washed away by a few hours of rain overnight, but it won't drop back below freezing immediately afterwards, which means that every outdoor surface in town won't be covered with a 1/8" thick layer of ice tomorrow, which is good news.

It was raining here earlier today but the system has since moved up to the north of us and it's 38° so we're pretty much in the clear at least for now. Looks like you're in the thick of it up there, it's snowing on you and points north right now but the radar shows some big pink blobs of freezing rain all across southern Mass and back through upstate NY which look to be encroaching on your location. It's getting as close as Lancaster, Marlborough and Framingham. But as it begins to get dark here in a few minutes the temps will probably drop and the snow/sleet line will move farther south. Good luck avoiding the ice blanket!

[Dead1]

14 hours ago, KillaKukumba said:

That pretty much explains the fruit picking industry. We've got farmers screaming to import workers because Australian's don't want to work. While the actual truth is that Australian's wont work for what is essentially slave labour. 7:30 did a report on it a few months back and by the time the imported workers pay out their onsite accommodation, their food etc, which all goes back to the farm owner, the workers are earning something like $3 an hour, and often that money is held for 'safe keeping'. After all that the farmers still have the nerve to call Aussie's lazy because they wont work 14 hour days for less than $50.

 

It is beyond messed up this is acceptable behavioir in a first world country.

 

I actially overheard a farmer in a coffee shop bragging about how great it is to pay these people next to nothing and that should be grateful for being given the opportunity to learn English and Australian values.

 

He was saying it to the cafe owner who looked distinctly uncomfortable because the farmer said it in response to the owner's wife who is Filipino...farmer must have assumed she was more glorified slave labour.

 

 

 

[AlSymerz]

I agree. It pisses me off that we have people who can get away with this sort of shit. It's even more of a piss off that these same people are able to be heard by governments and governments are bending over backwards to help them import workers during a pandemic that's seen our international borders closed.

The Vic government claimed our vax checkers, at the doors of Kmart etc, were not allowed to be cheaply hired junior staff. Then only last week they made a huge deal about under age labour in stores and what the rules are hiring/paying people under 15. All these no nos with threats of huge fines for breeches, but the same government has agreed to something like 120 fruit picking imports, all who will be essentially prisoners earning less than $50 a day for 14 hours work. (okay prisoners is a little over the top but after 14 hours of work no one feels like doing anything other than eating, then going back to their cramped rooms of bunk beds with no tv, limited internet and nothing else to do but sleep.

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

We don't even have vax checkers, people have been able to come and go as they please for many months now. I was vaccinated last April & May, but the only time I've ever been asked to provide proof of vax info was last month at that Jinjer show in the little club in Brooklyn. Thinking I'd probably need to show it to fly as well but I'm not planning on flying anywhere anytime soon. I'll drive down to see my daughter and the kids in April and then to MDF in May.

[navybsn]

Only had to show my card once in Charleston and once in Asheville for shows. No one else really cares, especially where I live in Florida. No matter. I've had 3 shots, so I'm not worried to much.

[Thatguy]

58 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

It is beyond messed up this is acceptable behavioir in a first world country.

 

I actially overheard a farmer in a coffee shop bragging about how great it is to pay these people next to nothing and that should be grateful for being given the opportunity to learn English and Australian values.

 

He was saying it to the cafe owner who looked distinctly uncomfortable because the farmer said it in response to the owner's wife who is Filipino...farmer must have assumed she was more glorified slave labour.

 

 

 

Total arseholes. They would use slave labour if they could - and essentially they do, just using other names for it.

[AlSymerz]

Different states different rules at the moment but NSW has only just allowed unvaxxed and vaxxed to mix at non essential stores, therefore rendering the vax check not needed. Not sure of their other rules but they don't have many left I don't think.

Victoria is at a stage where checks are still needed for hairdressers, hardware shops that sort of thing but not for supermarkets and other essential services like bottle shops/boozers. Pubs, clubs and restaurants are still supposed to ask for proof of any one over 18. Masks I think are still essential in shops, public transport etc but not outside or where we can social distance.

South Australia I think is similar to Vic. QLD has only recently opened it's borders, not sure about their vax checks but because of omicron they are considering mask mandates again. Tassie's probably similar, NT's pretty much never had an issue until recently so they are in and out of lockdowns in different areas. and WA will remain closed until hell freezes over.

To be honest none of the current restrictions bother me much, I don't go to the shops that much, or for very long, so wearing a mask doesn't really bother me, I can sign in to the shops I do go to from the car, or even at home before I leave, and I live in the country were one nearly has to go out of their way to breech the social distancing rules. We are going to a restaurant for Christmas lunch this year and I suspect that will be about the most populated room I've been in for years.

[FatherAlabaster]

Feeling pretty fucking mournful right now, just found out that a friend from my salad days died earlier tonight. A stroke and complications from Covid. Hadn't talked in ages but I always imagined him riding his motorcycle endlessly, somewhere in the back of my mind. Hoped we'd get to hang again. Damn.

[AlSymerz]

Bummer.

Think of the good times, raise a drink and then down it!

 

[FatherAlabaster]

2 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

Bummer.

Think of the good times, raise a drink and then down it!

 

Indeed, I did that. Thanks man.