What's on your mind?

[Parker]

Thanks for the kind words guys! And FA, I hope you feel better soon.

[FatherAlabaster]

Thank you. Right now it seems minor, hopefully it clears up soon. Note to future medical practitioners: no more doxycycline.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Get well soon FA.

 

Hmm well that's a new one on me. There's such a thing as melodic minor and I've been playing it in the scale of E without even realising until now. Thanks Rolling Stones. Also the solo for Paint It Black is starting to take shape with a focus on the harmonic minor elements of the song.

[Parker]

I wish I could understand music theory better. I try to read about it and it might as well be Sanskrit. My biggest complaint, and where I think a lot of confusion comes in, is sharps and flats. There are twelve notes, so why can't we just represent them with 12 letters? Why do we have to take some notes (apparently chosen at random?) and sometimes call them sharp and sometimes call them flat? It seems gratuitously complicated, almost as if music theorists WANT to make things confusing. Am I missing something? Is there really, truly something special about these particular notes that I'm not getting? Any time I try asking this question to someone who knows music theory we just talk in circles, like we might as well be speaking different languages.

[RelentlessOblivion]

As I understand it tonality is what causes the distinction. For E standard tuning B to C is a clean semitone shift as is E to F. For the others that semitone shift doesn't result in a perfect pitch hence the sharp/flat. The two terms are interchangeable i.e B flat is A sharp (or is it the other way around I know this stuff in my head but suck at explaining it).

[FatherAlabaster]

30 minutes ago, Parker said:

I wish I could understand music theory better. I try to read about it and it might as well be Sanskrit. My biggest complaint, and where I think a lot of confusion comes in, is sharps and flats. There are twelve notes, so why can't we just represent them with 12 letters? Why do we have to take some notes (apparently chosen at random?) and sometimes call them sharp and sometimes call them flat? It seems gratuitously complicated, almost as if music theorists WANT to make things confusing. Am I missing something? Is there really, truly something special about these particular notes that I'm not getting? Any time I try asking this question to someone who knows music theory we just talk in circles, like we might as well be speaking different languages.

There are centuries of history behind modern music tuning and notation, but basically there are seven letters because there are seven notes (or "degrees", seven steps, that is) in nearly every scale in Western music. They correspond to the lines and spaces on a staff. It didn't start off as a twelve-tone scale. You're looking at modern ideas of "absolute pitch" and "appropriate, exact distances between each note" (which we call "equal temperament"), grafted onto a much older but still relevant system of thinking about and writing music based on those seven degrees. It requires some memorization.

The natural notes are the white keys on the piano; the sharps and flats are the black keys. Sharp means you shift up one piano key, flat means you shift down.

Take an A minor scale - all and only the white keys on the piano, ABCDEFG, and then back to the octave. A is called the "tonic" of this scale; think of it as number 1. To play an A major, you shift the 3rd, 6th, and 7th notes each up one key (which is a "half step"), and write a # sign next to them. A B C# D E F# G# ...Still the same letters; still representing the same degrees of the scale; still in the same ascending order on the staff. Still the same "tonic" note, just a different set of notes above that forming different relationships and giving the key a different feel. From A (number one) to C (number three) is an interval called a "minor third". From A to C# (still number three!) is a "major third". This is what defines the difference between most of we'd call "major" or "minor" chords on the guitar.

Now say you want to play in the key of A flat major (Ab major). You start off on the black piano key right below A, and you play the notes A flat, B flat, C, D flat, E flat, F, and G. You still have all of the degrees, and you still have a place on the staff to write each of them, and the flat notes get a little "b" symbol next to them. Now I'll draw your attention to something Relentless tried to explain. That D flat is a black piano key; in fact it's the same one you called "C sharp" when you were playing in A major. (In fact, the "tonic" note that we're calling A flat is played on the same key we were using for G sharp before.) C# and Db are indeed the same note, as are G# and Ab. They're what's called "enharmonic".

What gives? It's a matter of what degree of the scale you're trying to represent. In A major, the C# is the third degree, and in an A chord it functions as a major 3rd. In A flat, though, it's C natural that functions as your major 3rd, and the next note up is your 4th - and so you'd use the fourth letter, D (flat). So far, if we were to look at this on a staff, you'd have a note on each line and space in ascending order, and the only thing that would change about the writing would be the symbols next to them. 

If you wanted to give each note its own letter, you'd have to write the A minor scale as ACDFHIK; A major would be ACEFHJL. A flat major would be LBDEGIK. Aside from the mnemonic advantage to a player of thinking about different scales as small variations of the same pattern, you'd give up the information about what degree of a scale a particular note is, and you'd have to come up with a different system of notation that has nothing to do with centuries worth of music or decades worth of training that other musicians have. You could certainly do that for your own writing if it made sense to you, but you'd have a hard time communicating it to other people that way. 

[RelentlessOblivion]

Like I said I know and understand this stuff. I Just can't explain it very well. At least not without an instrument in my hands.

 

Holy shit 2 weeks from today I'll be on a plane bound for LA. Where has the time gone?

[Parker]

FA, thank you. While I can't completely wrap my head around all of that, it is the best, most understandable explanation of the sharp/flat thing that I've ever got. You and Jerry Only are the two best music theory teachers on earth. Everyone else either assumes I know things I don't and therefor leaves crucial info out, or acts like I know nothing and say incredibly condescending things (Id Est This is a note! Note? Do you know what a note is?). You did tell me some stuff I already knew (like the G# being the same as an Ab thing, and that on a piano the white keys are the regular notes and the black are the sharps/flats), but you couldn't have known that, so I don't feel condescended. I guess what I have a problem with is that when I look at my bass, the frets are evenly spaced, that is to say that the sharps and flats aren't closer or further away from the other notes, and that makes me think that there is nothing different about them (making calling them sharp or flat seem arbitrary). I guess that the sharps/flats just are different and I just have to accept/deal with that. Again, thanks! Also thanks to RO for your post as well.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Yep music theory is a bitch. Boring as all hell too but somewhat necessary. To be honest I'm still wrapping my head around the idea that something is 'melodic minor' because one note in the scale is minor (minor 3rd) but the rest are major. This is now just my own ramblings no need to bother reading btw.

[Parker]

I have a question about drop tuning. Say I want to play in drop D. I know that I'd tune my E string (on bass) down to D, but what about the other strings? Do I leave them the way they are, or tune them down an equal amount?

[RelentlessOblivion]

I don't know if it's the same for bass but for a guitar drop tuning generally means only changing the top or thickest string. Going from E standard to drop D would just involve changing the top E to D. EBGDAD rather then EBGDAE. That's the common approach anyway. Waters get a bit muddier for Drop C, Drop B, and Drop A.

 

That proportional approach is more in line with 'standard' tuning. Not to open that other can of worms again but I'm mostly playing in C# standard of late (C#F#BEG#C#)

[Will]

4 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

Yep music theory is a bitch. Boring as all hell too but somewhat necessary. To be honest I'm still wrapping my head around the idea that something is 'melodic minor' because one note in the scale is minor (minor 3rd) but the rest are major. This is now just my own ramblings no need to bother reading btw.

The third is really the defining part of a scale when it comes to major/minor labelling, probably because if you were to make a chord from the scale using its triad you would get a minor/major chord (assuming the fifth is perfect).

It annoys me that the modal scale that we normally refer to as the "minor scale" (Aeolian mode) has a major second. The Phrygian mode is the same but with a minor second, why do we not call it "the minor scale" (is it because the chord of its fifth is diminished but the chords of the Aeolian modes first fourth and fifth are all minor?) *dissolves into incoherent noises and shaking.

 

Also I'll just kinda throw in the idea that that enharmonic notes are called the different things due to different context, this is as when writing out a (traditional modal) scale there can only be one of each note weather it be sharp or flat (so you cannot have D flat and D sharp in the same scale, you have a C sharp and a D sharp, or a D flat and an E flat) and because of this you can only have sharps or flats in a scale.

[Parker]

When used in music theory context, how does one pronounce the word "tonic"? Is it pronounced the same as people pronounce the stuff often mixed with gin, or is it more like tone+ik?

[Will]

27 minutes ago, Parker said:

When used in music theory context, how does one pronounce the word "tonic"? Is it pronounced the same as people pronounce the stuff often mixed with gin, or is it more like tone+ik?

Same as the drink.

[deathstorm]

Hey alabaster get well soon the wrestling show last night was awesome I had a great time

[DukeThylacine]

5 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

I don't know if it's the same for bass but for a guitar drop tuning generally means only changing the top or thickest string. Going from E standard to drop D would just involve changing the top E to D. EBGDAD rather then EBGDAE. That's the common approach anyway. Waters get a bit muddier for Drop C, Drop B, and Drop A.

Muddier? Since now I own a 5-stringer, I've heard dozens of times that 5-stringers (basses) are used by musicians so that they don't have to tune down a 4-stringer during a show, right? Since the standard tuning for a 5-stringer is G-D-A-E-B, means I can play Drop ...B? Or is the Drop D because of the thickness of the 5th string? (I think someone said Drop D...I don't, it got messed up in my head right now)

Anyway, I'll be buying a bass stand as soon as I get my paycheck, but when I browsed the site of our music shop, I noticed 2 types of floor stands - classic ones and neckless ones (as I call them):
http://www.mitrosmusic.com/media/inlineimage/upload_9228_1_d.jpg
http://www.mitrosmusic.com/media/inlineimage/upload_4730_1_d.jpg
I know about this first type (1st link), but I've never seen this 2nd type (2nd link) until I browsed the store. And quite frankly, I like it...it just seems so odd 
But the question is, is it really reliable? I mean, it doesn't have that vertical rod with a "hook" on top which help holds the guitar's neck.
I mean, my bass will be resting in a corner of the room (shielded between 2 furniture pieces) so no one will buzz around there to potentially knock it down, but still....is there any huge difference between these stands?

[Parker]

deathstorm, glad you had a good time at the wrestling show.

[deathstorm]

Thanks Parker 

[MacabreEternal]

Just booked a week away in Edinburgh in November for our 10 year anniversary.  Something to look forwards too as although life is good it is fucking hectic and 2017 shows no signs of slowing down much before the summer at least both at home and at work.

[BlutAusNerd]

I'm glad you found a medication that helps. And maybe it is best to get those kinds of talks out of the way, but there's something to be said for seeing how things develop first.

Speaking of medications, it would appear that I've developed a delayed skin reaction to the antibiotics I got for that sinus infection. Nothing terrible so far, but annoying. Probably beats suffering through the initial thing. Whoopdy doo.

I shouldn't read through these so fast, I thought I read that you needed antibiotics for an anus infection and had to do a double take.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

[FatherAlabaster]

20 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

I shouldn't read through these so fast, I thought I read that you needed antibiotics for an anus infection and had to do a double take.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

Unfortunately, it looks like the antibiotics weren't completely successful; in addition to getting an annoying rash, the sinus infection is coming back. And more antibiotics could fuck up my digestion and lead to further complications, so your misreading could, in theory, turn into an accurate prediction.

 

I strongly doubt that will happen, but I'll keep you informed. Never want friends to miss out on a good anus joke.

[Requiem]

The thing that is currently on my mind is the ubiquity of intelligent and grammatical discussion on this forum.

I assume it's the fact that forums like this one require patience with reading and writing that isn't required on the usual social media platforms, so in 2017 the candidates for medium to long term engagement with Metal Forum tend to be those who can express things very well in writing and enjoy reading. They can also apparently explain musical theory with precision (I'm really very impressed with everyone who came out of the woodwork with that hahaha).

In the current online zeitgeist, this place is a bastion of camaraderie and rewarding discussion. 

 

[FatherAlabaster]

Congratulations to our newest moderator, MacabreEternal! For he's a jolly good fellow, etc etc.

[BlutAusNerd]

The thing that is currently on my mind is the ubiquity of intelligent and grammatical discussion on this forum.

I assume it's the fact that forums like this one require patience with reading and writing that isn't required on the usual social media platforms, so in 2017 the candidates for medium to long term engagement with Metal Forum tend to be those who can express things very well in writing and enjoy reading. They can also apparently explain musical theory with precision (I'm really very impressed with everyone who came out of the woodwork with that hahaha).

In the current online zeitgeist, this place is a bastion of camaraderie and rewarding discussion. 

 

 

I won't say that's always how this place has been, but it's a trait that most of the major users have espoused from the beginning, and most of the detractors from it have almost systematically weeded themselves out. That's how my other long standing forum engagement has been, but unfortunately that place is even slower in traffic than this one. It's ironic then that I spend most of my time arguing with idiots on a platform that is exactly as you're describing the way that most social media functions.

 

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

 

 

[Parker]

I  can't wait for December! That is to say, I can't wait for Star Wars Episode VIII The Last Jedi.  Does anyone know any little thing about it? Even rumors? Maybe I should have posted this in the movie thread, but it is what is on my mind.