Death

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Re: Death Thanks Storm you're an awesome guy

[RelentlessOblivion]

so Iceni basically christians believe God needs to tell people what's "right" and what's "wrong" because people are too stupid to figure it out themselves? On the prospect of Heaven and Hell it isn't really free choice is it? I mean you have to obey God's teachings to the letter of the law in order to enter heaven and if you ever commit a sin in your life you go to hell but you believe in original sin so that simply being born is sinful and therefore no one can ever possibly enter Heaven regardless of how "right" they live their life.

[deathstorm]

does the grim reaper exist yes or no

[RelentlessOblivion]

no, Death happens entirely at random there is no grand design by some malicious being behind it.

[Idlewilde]

Ok...I read your post in the morning and since the morning coffee haven't kicked in yet I was staring for a few minutes with an empty look. First, I need to say that me dwelling on religious subjects, as well as me being lectured on such, has no sense:earlier I told you that I still have a long way to go in order to be fine with myself and have a stable opinion about it I can defend. Only thing I can tell you is why it is like that.

human beings simply do not know - and it is there that faith comes in. After an examination' date=' after researching and understanding the alternatives, then faith arrives as a kind of hypothesis.[/quote'] And here comes the first question mark. Faith and hypothesis are almost antonyms in my head. You can believe in something, if you don't - you make hypothesis about things you can't explain. The two things are very different, and you can't force yourself to believe in something if you simply don't. I used to be a believer,then something broke and I didn't believe. I can't tell you why, and trust me the idea of religion is quite appealing and it would bring a lot of order in my otherwise chaotic and confused mind, but when I don't find a faith believable, I can't tell myself that I'll feel better if I research it and pick it up. You say you can't understand people who would reject the idea of hell because it will bring them the justice they crave for. Yes it would, I totally agree. But I think you missed my point here-doing something good is imposed by religion as it is by law. It is something that is oppresive for people's free will, and it should be there because there are people whose free will is telling them to murder and to destroy.If it's religion or law-all fine with me. But Do you think a good person deserves heaven only if he did good because of fear to go to hell? This is the question to which I reply with a No and this is the point where I stop believing in the conception of heaven and hell. As I said I don't find it bad and it will calm my soul but I don't believe in it. I believe that goodness should include not only the actions, but the motives as well, the most noble of all for me would be free will. I don't know how it is with you, but I feel good when I help and I feel awfully guilty when I hurt someone. So, I try to do good because of my personal principals, knowing that I'll suffer if I'll do otherwise. I can't pop up with a critical theory, it is what I feel and I don't pretend it applies to everyone.

[RelentlessOblivion]

I never believed and unless something changes in my life I never will. I do wear a cross as a good luck charm (it's a family heirloom that's been in the family over 100 years) but the symbolism behind it isn't there in my mind. Being good and kind is a reward in and of itself and in that sense the idea of a further reward after death seems rather pointless. In the same way being harmful to others has consequences in this life and so further punishment after death seems equally unnecessary.

[Iceni]

so Iceni basically christians believe God needs to tell people what's "right" and what's "wrong" because people are too stupid to figure it out themselves? On the prospect of Heaven and Hell it isn't really free choice is it? I mean you have to obey God's teachings to the letter of the law in order to enter heaven and if you ever commit a sin in your life you go to hell but you believe in original sin so that simply being born is sinful and therefore no one can ever possibly enter Heaven regardless of how "right" they live their life.

To the first point: not exactly. Christianity holds that people have consciences, so they do know right from wrong in an oblique sense but not in an exact sense. And yes, it is a free choice. There's a big difference between a free will choice and an inconsequential selection. The way in which you frame the dilemma makes it a very clear decision between Heaven and Hell, and yet the number of people who actively decide not to choose heaven after having heard about Christianity is substantial. (Ignorance is not necessarily a determining factor: see Romans 2:14-15). One can decide to stick one's face into a band saw, but that action will have consequences - nonetheless it is a free will decision. If you'll forgive me for a bit of humor, Chris Rock once said: "Hell, you can drive a car with your feet if you want to! But that don't make it a good fuckin' idea!" The point concerning sin is simply untrue and would render the religion pointless and impossible. The point on original sin is an erroneous Catholic belief that I do not hold to, as it circumvents free will, fails to understand the way people act, and undermines the foundation of Christianity. The final point is true in some sense. Originally, nobody truly had the ability to enter heaven because no amount of human action could compensate for man's iniquity (again, not original sin, more like an acquired trait in some sense). However, God sends Christ to die so that he, God, would suffer the penalty for sin. Christ died and went to hell, accepting the sins of the world on himself. Because God gave himself up to himself as a sacrifice any human can enter heaven (including ancient Hebrews) as a free will choice.

Faith and hypothesis are almost antonyms in my head. You can believe in something' date=' if you don't - you make hypothesis about things you can't explain. The two things are very different, and you can't force yourself to believe in something if you simply don't. I used to be a believer,then something broke and I didn't believe[...']But do you think a good person deserves heaven only if he did good because of fear to go to hell? This is the question to which I reply with a No and this is the point where I stop believing in the conception of heaven and hell. As I said I don't find it bad and it will calm my soul but I don't believe in it. I believe that goodness should include not only the actions, but the motives as well, the most noble of all for me would be free will. I don't know how it is with you, but I feel good when I help and I feel awfully guilty when I hurt someone. So, I try to do good because of my personal principals, knowing that I'll suffer if I'll do otherwise. I can't pop up with a critical theory, it is what I feel and I don't pretend it applies to everyone.

You said to make a hypothesis about things you can't explain. That's what faith is. Hypotheses are a kind of faith, and they cannot be proven wrong or right until the experiment is finished. It is a commonly posited untruth that faith is absent in science. Your second point is a very good one. However, this is where God's knowledge comes in. Christianity cannot be faked, not in front of God (Matthew 7:22). It's just as much an attitude of the heart as it is a set code of actions. I might argue that said fear is rational - it's the same as a fear of early death motivating the development of medicine. Death is in some sense an ultimatum to ensure people don't waste their time in an 'unexamined life', as Socrates might put it. It is intended to drive people to God. However, the character of this decision is not oppressive because God does actually have the interests of humanity at heart. Without that vital element of compassion your thesis would be entirely true.

[RelentlessOblivion]

I must say Iceni you, unlike many religious types I have encountered, seem capable of accepting criticisms of your faith and defending your position admirably where most would simply say "you are wrong and you're going to hell unless you repent". I admire your willingness to debate in this area though I disagree with your position. As I said those who sin are condemned to hell in Christian teachings and you believe that upon death we all face God's judgement but said judgement doesn't weigh up the good and bad in your life and determine your fate that way rather it looks to see just one flaw, one fault, and punish you eternally for it regardless of how good the rest of your life was. That's what I was taught on the subject and so that is my understanding of Christianity.

[Iceni]

I must say Iceni you, unlike many religious types I have encountered, seem capable of accepting criticisms of your faith and defending your position admirably where most would simply say "you are wrong and you're going to hell unless you repent". I admire your willingness to debate in this area though I disagree with your position. As I said those who sin are condemned to hell in Christian teachings and you believe that upon death we all face God's judgement but said judgement doesn't weigh up the good and bad in your life and determine your fate that way rather it looks to see just one flaw, one fault, and punish you eternally for it regardless of how good the rest of your life was. That's what I was taught on the subject and so that is my understanding of Christianity.

I'll take that as a compliment then. If I have your respect I can't ask for more. Like I said, not worth sticking to a position I can't defend. As to the single fault, I assume you mean a theological fault. I would encourage you to examine Romans 2, as it can be interpreted as providing a sort of 'understanding' for righteous pagans. It would be worth your while to do more of your own independent research, if you wish, for more clarity on my understanding with regards to sin because the Catholic position differs substantially from the myriad Protestant positions on the subject. Vitally, it is excessively legalistic in many ways that gloss over the nuance of the Bible and instead present a disappointingly simplistic picture of Scripture.

[RelentlessOblivion]

I find it interesting that there are so many different variants on the same faith it strikes me as highly unusual that Christianity more then any other organised religion encourages hatred of any sect other then the one you are a member of. Catholics hate Protestants and vice versa, the Orthodox community hate the Methodist community and so on. Every single doctrine preaches that they are correct and only those who follow their path may gain entrance to heaven. This may not be the intention of the founders of those different sects but the original intention was lost in translation long ago. With so many claiming to be the one true faith it should come as no surprise that many people don't look favourably on religion particularly when many practitioners will go out of their way to snub those who are not religious devotees or make repeated attempts to convert the non-faithful. Sadly there are some who do not believe and go out of their way to avoid the faithful or try to convince them to abandon their faith.

[Idlewilde]

To the first point: not exactly. Christianity holds that people have consciences, so they do know right from wrong in an oblique sense but not in an exact sense.

I think you made yourself very clear and convincing on the second point. However, you say faith is hypothesis, something that comes and makes sense when you can't explain certain things. From the posts I read I start thinking that you are a pretty rational guy, and I understand why this it is enough for you that faith is a hypothesis that makes sense. Until now I can't believe than religion exceeds the limits of "a guide for living in society". I can't find any spiritual guidance in it, and I can't believe in a hypothesis just because it makes perfect sense. I am a more instinctive type of person and I would be able to believe in things that don't make any sense as long as it feels right for me, but for now religion doesn't agree with me to be some sort of a spiritual guidance. There are no specific reasons for that, it has nothing to do with the fact that "there is no justice in this world and so there can't be any God", as you mentioned earlier,I just can't believe in it and it is almost a physical sensation. I haven't ruled out the possibility to change my mind, but I have a long long way to go and research many many things first. And if it happens it won't be a rational process. What I do find fascinating are something that wikipedia translates as parables, but I am a freak for myths, legends and folk literature.

[RelentlessOblivion]

I personally don't find fault with the religious message of kindness and compassion for our fellow man, this is a noble cause. However most religious types simply do not adhere to those standards so faith screams hypocrisy to me. preach one thing do another and hope you don't get caught out. I can't buy into that. Right and Wrong are instinctive in my opinion man knows what is right and acceptable, we also know what is wrong, what should never be done. People who don't believe that are not in touch with reality. I don't think we need to be told there is an omnipotent being which has decreed what we can and can't do. Nor do a think we need to be promised paradise or threatened with hell when our actions both good and bad have consequences in this life. Those who live selfish lives generally die unhappy whilst those who live their lives doing good generally die pleased with their accomplishments and to me that's enough.

[Idlewilde]

Those who live selfish lives generally die unhappy whilst those who live their lives doing good generally die pleased with their accomplishments and to me that's enough.

I wish i could believe in that myself, but I have a hard time for this as well. The only thing I know is that when I do something selfish&inconsiderate for other people's well being,I feel bad, but I really doubt this applies to everyone. It would be a much better world if it did, yet I think that there are people who simply don't care about anyone but themselves, I don't know how they feel when dying but when living they seem to be perfectly fine .

[Fiend]

Kinda of Agnostic but my mindset is even if there is no afterlife there is still your legacy. All the good and crappy things you ever did, how they changed people for the better or worse, etc. That being said, honestly my guess would be in some sense living with your descisions in life, you create your personel hell or heaven through your own actions. Obvisouly no way to verify that but I kinda of live by that mindset for the simple fact that even if there is nothing in the afterlife you can at least feel some sense of peace near the end.

[MacabreEternal]

Death? It's lights out in my opinion. No afterlife, no heaven or hell, no big family BBQ in the sky with all the ones that got there before me. I intend to find nothing but blackness, an endless sleep. That isn't me being morbid it's just how I look at it. If religion or whatever gives people a coping mechanism to help them come to terms with their inevitable end then great - I am no fan of religion for many reasons but I have no problem with people who find comfort from it. My dad puts it best whenever we talk about dying - "Off for the best sleep I have ever had in my life."

[RelentlessOblivion]

I'm by no means a religious person but as I said before I have had certain experiences which lead me to believe some part of the self remains after death at least in some cases.

[Iceni]

I find it interesting that there are so many different variants on the same faith it strikes me as highly unusual that Christianity more then any other organised religion encourages hatred of any sect other then the one you are a member of. Catholics hate Protestants and vice versa' date=' the Orthodox community hate the Methodist community and so on. Every single doctrine preaches that they are correct and only those who follow their path may gain entrance to heaven. This may not be the intention of the founders of those different sects but the original intention was lost in translation long ago. With so many claiming to be the one true faith it should come as no surprise that many people don't look favourably on religion particularly when many practitioners will go out of their way to snub those who are not religious devotees or make repeated attempts to convert the non-faithful.[/quote'] There is a massive dispute between Islamic sects. In fact, the main victims of 'Islamist' terrorism and insurgencies are other Muslims. Read Sayyid Qutb's Milestones and you'll get a sense of it. Furthermore, there isn't much present dispute between Christians in any meaningful sense. I place the blame squarely on the Catholic church with regards to that schism as it stands today. I can't comment on the Orthodox church, but I know that most Protestants consider Catholics Christians with an equal chance at heaven. Then again, they're too darn lazy to understand the differences between different denominations so whether this is the result of egalitarianism, indolence or both is a mystery. However, I know that Catholics do not believe that Protestants are Christians. As I've learned more about the Catholic church (due to a family problem on the matter), I've become convinced that their dogma is not Christian. Again, perhaps the people themselves are sufficiently lazy to not consider a piece of bread to be God, or to not believe that Mary was sinless, but the teachings themselves have far too many flaws and digressions to be properly considered Christian. If you say so. It's nowhere near enough for someone to just have 'negative vibes' before they kick the bucket. They need to suffer the consequences of their iniquity.

[MacabreEternal]

I'm by no means a religious person but as I said before I have had certain experiences which lead me to believe some part of the self remains after death at least in some cases.

Really? Would you like to share them (god that sounds like a therapists tag line - I am not trying to analyse you I promise)? I had a very interesting experience with an alleged ghost but I was very young (although another member of my family had seen something also in the same house) so I don't really take it to be as concrete proof as a result. I was about 4 or 5 years old at the time. Long story short saw the image of a woman dressed in what I thought of then as "old clothes" stood by my window every night - even got my parents to sleep in my room but I would wake up and she would still be there. House was built on the site of an old cotton mill.

[RelentlessOblivion]

I've had a few experiences, I created a thread in the off-topic section to discuss ghosts and the paranormal but it died I've had several experiences. In my old house I used to see an elderly man sitting at the end of my bed, I remember exactly what he was wearing a black suit with a red and white tie. I saw him both at night and during the day always in the same spot and always just sitting. I also remember my parents telling me it was my imagination (I was 6 or 7) until they went into my room to get something and both saw him.

[NTNR]

Was there a ghost experience thread? I've had several but I'm slowly documenting them on doommantia.com. I've posted and told them several times over the years so I'm not going to go into detail here. I will say that based on my personal experiences I do believe there is something after death. There are too many odd things, unexplained and simply profound to make me think we simply cease to exist. Whether we go to heaven, hell, valhalla, etc... I don't know; but something happens to us after the body dies.

[RelentlessOblivion]

I'm in that boat as well mate, when I die I'm gonna haunt the shit out of my house

[NTNR]

I'm in that boat as well mate' date=' when I die I'm gonna haunt the shit out of my house [/quote'] Good man!

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Re: Death My Grandad's funeral today, going to sit next to my Nan to comfort her, I'll try my best too keep strong I love you Grandad

[deathstorm]

i wanted a frozen instead of buried so they clone a new younger me lol

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Re: Death Haha yes lifestorm mate