The Meaning of Life

[FatherAlabaster]

Dumb or not, that fucker is tasty. And luckily for me, my wife is pregnant, so I always have a designated driver, which I'm certain I'll need. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

One of the real perks of having the meal at your own place...

[RelentlessOblivion]

I've got to wait until Christmas to stuff myself on turkey.

[Iceni]

Ghouly brought up an interesting argument; that life is made more worth living when there is no afterlife. I thought this struck at the issue of where meaning originates and why, and what renders it important.

[Dwarf from Beyond]

I chose to believe the meaning of life is quite straightforward' date=' beer+women+metal=life[/quote'] This one got it right, the meaning of life is whatever we want it to be.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Ghouly brought up an interesting argument; that life is made more worth living when there is no afterlife. I thought this struck at the issue of where meaning originates and why' date=' and what renders it important.[/quote'] I'm not entirely sure that's accurate. The argument I commonly encounter from fellow atheists is that we appreciate our lives more and seek to achieve greater things because we recognise that our time on Earth is very short but I've not found that to be the case. The belief in an afterlife does not, in and of itself, diminish one's capacity to appreciate each and every second of one's life. It comes back to the individual. I believe life is only as meaningful as we choose to make it. I also believe that not all truly remarkable achievements make the history books. One of the greatest tragedies in life is that someone can accomplish wonderful things and never be recognised for them. Is the life of a man who makes a modest living but does a great job as a parent and volunteers some of his spare time to help feed and cloth the homeless less meaningful then that of a medical researcher who cures a rare disease? History would say yes but in my opinion their lives are equally meaningful.

[Iceni]

I'm not entirely sure that's accurate. The argument I commonly encounter from fellow atheists is that we appreciate our lives more and seek to achieve greater things because we recognise that our time on Earth is very short but I've not found that to be the case. The belief in an afterlife does not' date=' in and of itself, diminish one's capacity to appreciate each and every second of one's life.[/quote'] Exactly. The line of reasoning I've heard in a couple of a arguments is that religion (again, any old religion, they couldn't be bothered to choose one) inherently changes one's focus from there here and now to the hereafter and therefore skews people's priorities and retards human development. There is something to this. Usually, however, the endeavor to create a more prosperous world coincides with making a more peaceful one. And the longer people live the more time they have to consider what it is exactly that they believe. It's true that riches and poverty can be equally distracting, but education frequently leads to prosperity, at least in part, and education is important for understanding Scripture or indeed any theological material. It suits the missionary to be a humanitarian as much as a pastor.

[RelentlessOblivion]

There are just as many atheists who feel that because life is so short they can't possibly accomplish anything meaningful and so make no effort to bring meaning into their lives as there are people of faith (apologies for the generalisation) who feel that because the soul outlives the physical body there's no real need to make any effort in this life. Like I said it all comes down to how much you value your life and there are any number of factors which may influence this process.

[Iceni]

I'm saying it's illogical to adopt a blase attitude towards life if you're a Christian (can't speak for other religions and won't pretend to). Plenty of good reasons to work for prosperity like everyone else.

[RelentlessOblivion]

There's no need to have a blase attitude towards life regardless of your personal beliefs. That's the point I'm getting at.

[Iceni]

Yes, there's no need to be blase but there are certain belief systems that encourage that way of thinking. 'Christian Science' comes across as one example. And from what little I know about Buddhism it lends itself to such an attitude as well.

[RelentlessOblivion]

From what I understand of Buddhism it is an entirely self centered religion. It's like a less destructive form of ethical egoism (actually come to think of it satanism is just ethical egoism with deification added to the mix).

[Iceni]

From what I understand of Buddhism it is an entirely self centered religion.

That's good to hear since I assumed as much.

[RelentlessOblivion]

The whole "free yourself of material desire by complaining about all the things you have to give up" thing really doesn't work for me.

[deathstorm]

Hey guys what about that muslim thing of dying and seeing 72 virgin women

[Iceni]

I don't think it's in the Qur'an, from what I know it's just some bollocks that al-Qaeda made up.

[deathstorm]

You gotta admit Iceni. That was a great selling point to those guys. Al Qaeda made out

[RelentlessOblivion]

I don't think it's in the Qur'an' date=' from what I know it's just some bollocks that al-Qaeda made up.[/quote'] Actually it appears to be an error in translation between middle-eastern dialects. It is in there only it's raisins not virgins. Personally I think that is unbelievably hilarious.

[Iceni]

Actually it appears to be an error in translation between middle-eastern dialects. It is in there only it's raisins not virgins. Personally I think that is unbelievably hilarious.

So did you see the Robin Williams routine as well then?

[RelentlessOblivion]

Akmal Saleh actually. He's Australian/Lebanese and hilarious.

[Syuurin]

From what I understand of Buddhism it is an entirely self centered religion. It's like a less destructive form of ethical egoism (actually come to think of it satanism is just ethical egoism with deification added to the mix).

This is an oversimplification. Certainly some Buddhist sects are more humanist than others, and the common idea between them all is elevation of the self, but the principles of karma and compassion do, in fact, encourage doing things that benefit society as a whole.

The whole "free yourself of material desire by complaining about all the things you have to give up" thing really doesn't work for me.

If you're complaining, you're doing it wrong...

[Iceni]

Possibly, but I still don't see anything particularly anti-ego about the ideas of compassion or karma.

[Syuurin]

Well, it would be anti-ego in the sense that true transcendence is a renunciation of the ego, perhaps. "To learn about oneself is to forget oneself."

[RelentlessOblivion]

Most great acts of kindness and compassion are motivated by selfishness. The buddhist who carries out charitable acts does so because they believe it brings them closer to enlightenment. The christian does so in order to gain access to heaven. The atheist does so to feel better about themself or for some other gain. The same can be said of most heinous crimes as well. Maybe I'm just cynical but I can't believe anyone could be so generous if there wasn't some perceived benefit in it for them.

[Iceni]

I think your point is correct as a de facto statement describing many cases, so I'm just going to take issue with one point:

The christian does so in order to gain access to heaven.

Sort of. The thing is, one needs a certain attitude to get into heaven, and it's impossible to fake that disposition because it consists of humility. For what it's worth I went to a discussion yesterday at the church I'm currently attending where they evaluated the whole concept of heaven and whether or not it's quite the way people imagine. The lecturer was proposing a new, permanent physical realm bereft of pain, rather than the purely metaphysical idea I'm used to. I would pin that attitude of cynical fealty more on Mormons in principle, who have a set list of things to do.

[RelentlessOblivion]

But one can be humble and still be selfish. If we go back to my example from the other page both those individuals are motivated by a selfish desire to be remembered. The researcher wants to be remember for their groundbreaking achievement. The family man wants his kids to remember him and his example. Let us add to this that the family man is arrogant and critiques the generosity and parenting of his friends regularly whilst the researcher downplays her accomplishments and is genuinely humble. They were both still motivated by selfishness. Humility can not be faked but you can not deny that there is a certain degree of selfishness required if you want to enter heaven. Sort of a catch 22: you have to live a good life in accordance with scripture to get into heaven. If you want that then your deeds in this life are, at their core, motivated by selfishness. You know that lecturer would have been judged a heretic and burned at the stake as recently as 200 years ago.