Heavy Metal Bands

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Heavy Metal Bands

where the hell did you pull death metal on Painkiller from? seriously there is NO death metal in the sound of that album whatsoever

Oops, i actually meant jugulator, yes i agree withthat

[RelentlessOblivion]

Re: Heavy Metal Bands I love Jugulator, one of my favourite Priest albums alongside Painkiller, Sad Wings Of Destiny and Nostradamus

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Heavy Metal Bands

I love Jugulator' date=' one of my favourite Priest albums alongside Painkiller, Sad Wings Of Destiny and Nostradamus[/quote'] do you agree with what i said before?

[RelentlessOblivion]

Re: Heavy Metal Bands perhaps a bit of Death Metal in Jugulator but it's more of a thrash-ish album

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Heavy Metal Bands

perhaps a bit of Death Metal in Jugulator but it's more of a thrash-ish album

Yeah, i thiught you wouldnt be happy with turbo as the only good hair metal i like

[RelentlessOblivion]

Re: Heavy Metal Bands I HATE TURBO, my least favourite Priest album by a massive margin

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Heavy Metal Bands

I HATE TURBO' date=' my least favourite Priest album by a massive margin[/quote'] I like it, sorry :/ my least fav is Angel Of Retribution, Nostradamus RULES Though

[RelentlessOblivion]

Re: Heavy Metal Bands no argument there, Nostradamus is a killer album

[Albatross]

Demon Eye DEMON EYE, RALEIGH NC ? SOUNDS

[NinaHell]

King Diamond (and Mercyful Fate)

[Skull_Kollektor]

29 minutes ago, NinaHell said:

King Diamond (and Mercyful Fate)

Love both, but sometimes Mercyful Fate end up being called "black metal", "progressive metal" and even "power metal". King Diamond back in the 80's was sometimes considered "power metal".

Back in those days (late 80's early to mid 90's) you had horror themed power metal (his), pirate themed power metal (Running Wild), fantasy themed power metal (Blind Guardian), space themed power metal (Gamma Ray), whatever the fuck themed power metal (Helloween and Rage), history themed power metal (Grave Digger), and so on.

All quite different bands, but all were being labelled power metal.

These days I would agree that King Diamond's music was straight heavy metal from the get go, nevermind the lyrics. Same goes for Mercyful Fate. I always considered "Melissa" as "Stained Class" on steroids: higher shrieks, more riffs, even longer tracks, and so on!

[BlutAusNerd]

29 minutes ago, NinaHell said: King Diamond (and Mercyful Fate)

Love both, but sometimes Mercyful Fate end up being called "black metal", "progressive metal" and even "power metal". King Diamond back in the 80's was sometimes considered "power metal".

Back in those days (late 80's early to mid 90's) you had horror themed power metal (his), pirate themed power metal (Running Wild), fantasy themed power metal (Blind Guardian), space themed power metal (Gamma Ray), whatever the fuck themed power metal (Helloween and Rage), history themed power metal (Grave Digger), and so on.

All quite different bands, but all were being labelled power metal.

These days I would agree that King Diamond's music was straight heavy metal from the get go, nevermind the lyrics. Same goes for Mercyful Fate. I always considered "Melissa" as "Stained Class" on steroids: higher shrieks, more riffs, even longer tracks, and so on!

 

Mercyful Fate's last few albums were heavy metal, but their early stuff was black metal, along with parts of Fatal Portrait. Both bands have always had a progressive and even gothic bent, but black metal for MF and heavy metal for KD are more appropriate.

 

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[Ecthelion]

On 3/11/2017 at 7:38 PM, BlutAusNerd said:

 

Mercyful Fate's last few albums were heavy metal, but their early stuff was black metal, along with parts of Fatal Portrait. Both bands have always had a progressive and even gothic bent, but black metal for MF and heavy metal for KD are more appropriate.

 

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I disagree. Mercyful Fate didn't even closely share any resemblance to other prominent first-wave black metal acts like Sodom, Venom, Bathory, or Celtic Frost. They were excellent, well-written traditional heavy metal with a unique and gifted vocalist. The subject matter and King's face paint aside, I don't know what else could have possibly influenced black metal as we know it today when it comes to Mercyful Fate's sound.  

[BlutAusNerd]

On 3/11/2017 at 7:38 PM, BlutAusNerd said:  

Mercyful Fate's last few albums were heavy metal, but their early stuff was black metal, along with parts of Fatal Portrait. Both bands have always had a progressive and even gothic bent, but black metal for MF and heavy metal for KD are more appropriate.

 

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I disagree. Mercyful Fate didn't even closely share any resemblance to other prominent first-wave black metal acts like Sodom, Venom, Bathory, or Celtic Frost. They were excellent, well-written traditional heavy metal with a unique and gifted vocalist. The subject matter and King's face paint aside, I don't know what else could have possibly influenced black metal as we know it today when it comes to Mercyful Fate's sound.  

 

Except for their riffs featuring dark note selections and chord progressions not found within heavy metal, as well as a different take on songwriting from the heavy metal bands of their day. Until their initial breakup, they were definitely black metal.

 

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[Ecthelion]

46 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

 

Except for their riffs featuring dark note selections and chord progressions not found within heavy metal, as well as a different take on songwriting from the heavy metal bands of their day. Until their initial breakup, they were definitely black metal.

 

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Which is why they were acclaimed. Because they breathed life into heavy metal in terms of atmosphere and songwriting. If you actually want to look at albums that have clearly influenced black metal as it's known today (in terms of how it sounds), you'd have a much better idea of that listening to Morbid Tales, In the Sign of Evil, Welcome to Hell, The Return..., To Mega Therion, and Under the Sign of the Black Mark rather than Melissa or Don't Break the Oath. 

[Skull_Kollektor]

Sure, but it can't be denied that in those days the "black metal" label was applied to Mercyful Fate too.

It wasn't so much about a particular sound, it was more about atmosphere and attitude. If it was darker and more satanic than your average Saxon wannabe, then it was labelled black metal.

You could call Mercyful Fate blackened heavy metal, if you will.

I find it so hilarious when I think about the albums that Shermann made with Fate

[BlutAusNerd]

46 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:  

Except for their riffs featuring dark note selections and chord progressions not found within heavy metal, as well as a different take on songwriting from the heavy metal bands of their day. Until their initial breakup, they were definitely black metal.

 

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Which is why they were acclaimed. Because they breathed life into heavy metal in terms of atmosphere and songwriting. If you actually want to look at albums that have clearly influenced black metal as it's known today (in terms of how it sounds), you'd have a much better idea of that listening to Morbid Tales, In the Sign of Evil, Welcome to Hell, The Return..., To Mega Therion, and Under the Sign of the Black Mark rather than Melissa or Don't Break the Oath. 

 

Heavy metal has a pretty specific songwriting style and pattern, and Mercyful Fate blew past that more than a lot of other first wave bands did. They didn't have as direct of a lineage in the black metal family tree as the Venom>Bathory>Sarcófago>Mayhem line, but that's because nobody could keep up with them musically to attempt to mimic them directly, and doesn't mean that they're not black metal. The same can be seen in death metal with Death's vine being the one that bore more fruit than that of Master or Necrophagia, but that doesn't mean that their vines don't come from the same root of death metal. Seriously though, riffs like this opener are far more black than anything by Venom, and it's not as though it's the only one in the song or their canon.

 

 

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[Skull_Kollektor]

I don't know... If you want to call that Black Metal just because of the riff... then "Am I Evil" is black metal too... and so is "Symptom of the Universe"... and so is "Black Sabbath"... and so is "Returned to Sanity" by Andomeda... and so is "Mars" by Hoslt... and so is ANYTHING with that tritone or chromatic descending thing or whatever is the name of that sequence in which you play three consecutive semi-tones (never mind what you play in between those three).

[BlutAusNerd]

I don't know... If you want to call that Black Metal just because of the riff... then "Am I Evil" is black metal too... and so is "Symptom of the Universe"... and so is "Black Sabbath"... and so is "Returned to Sanity" by Andomeda... and so is "Mars" by Hoslt... and so is ANYTHING with that tritone or chromatic descending thing or whatever is the name of that sequence in which you play three consecutive semi-tones (never mind what you play in between those three).

 

It's not just the notes themselves, but the cadence in which they're played, which is very much black metal unlike the examples that you gave. There are obviously only a finite number of notes and order to which they can be arranged, which are shared by a number of genres, but it's the song structure and the way that they're played that sets them apart. As far as opening riffs go though, it's one of the better examples I can give from their catalog, up there with Black Funeral and Desecration of Souls. I think a lot of people are unnecessarily swayed in this topic because of the vocals, but as black metal has always been known to apply a variety of vocal techniques, I don't see why that should be a hurdle. The songwriting itself is what is important, and it is every bit as black metal as Venom, Hellhammer, Sodom, Sarcófago, Bulldozer, NME, and any number of other first wave black metal bands. I would say that some of the confusion may have to do with Norwegian black metal being the standard that most people judge black metal by for some reason, but the most popular group from that scene is Emperor, who are HUGELY Mercyful Fate inspired. Maybe the guitar tone has something to do with it, but that's yet another superficial trait, especially considering black metal has never been known to emphasize perfect production values. The proof is in the pudding, whether or not the people eating it can recognize it.

 

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[Skull_Kollektor]

Okay, but seriously, that is "Am I Evil" with a twist which is, by own admission of Brian Tatler, "Symptom of the Universe" with a twist...

It's not as deliberate as this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U58x3FtAEeI

But it's still a variation of that theme... But I would be the first to say that "Am I Evil" is not a black metal track, while I would throw both Mercyful Fate and Celtic Frost in the lot... So what is it that makes the difference? To me is the combination of lyrical subject, guitar tone and obsession with satanic themes (mock or not).

Oh and I also want to stress out that before the First Wave of Black Metal there was the Zero Wave of Black Metal which consisted of "Second Time Around" by Blue Cheer (which sounds exactly like "In League with Satan" by Venom) and the coda of "Cygnus I" by Rush, which sounds like Immortal and considering that Rush are from Canada, it qualifies as proper (or shall I say TRVE) grim!

[BlutAusNerd]

Okay, but seriously, that is "Am I Evil" with a twist which is, by own admission of Brian Tatler, "Symptom of the Universe" with a twist... [emoji3]

It's not as deliberate as this:

But it's still a variation of that theme... But I would be the first to say that "Am I Evil" is not a black metal track, while I would throw both Mercyful Fate and Celtic Frost in the lot... So what is it that makes the difference? To me is the combination of lyrical subject, guitar tone and obsession with satanic themes (mock or not).

Oh and I also want to stress out that before the First Wave of Black Metal there was the Zero Wave of Black Metal which consisted of "Second Time Around" by Blue Cheer (which sounds exactly like "In League with Satan" by Venom) and the coda of "Cygnus I" by Rush, which sounds like Immortal and considering that Rush are from Canada, it qualifies as proper (or shall I say TRVE) grim! [emoji14]

 

To say that this difference is just a twist is akin to calling Outbreak of Evil a twist on Ace of Spades. The difference in cadence is a lot more than a "twist", as in both cases they're a lot darker and more aggressive than prior similar riffs in the examples given. I think the importance of lyrics is overstated, as while a lot of these bands had a common theme, it was the music that united them. Sure, there are precursors with anything, these sounds don't just materialize out of thin air, but there's a big difference between hinting at something and fully embracing it. You could almost call that middle riff with the key change in Sabbath Bloody Sabbath the first death metal riff, but it's more of an isolated precursor than a drastic departure from what came before.

 

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[FatherAlabaster]

Yeah sure, toss Arthur Brown in there while you're at it.

[Skull_Kollektor]

14 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

 

To say that this difference is just a twist is akin to calling Outbreak of Evil a twist on Ace of Spades. The difference in cadence is a lot more than a "twist", as in both cases they're a lot darker and more aggressive than prior similar riffs in the examples given. I think the importance of lyrics is overstated, as while a lot of these bands had a common theme, it was the music that united them. Sure, there are precursors with anything, these sounds don't just materialize out of thin air, but there's a big difference between hinting at something and fully embracing it. You could almost call that middle riff with the key change in Sabbath Bloody Sabbath the first death metal riff, but it's more of an isolated precursor than a drastic departure from what came before.

 

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Ahahah well I think Angelripper would not deny that!  Nice one!

As for "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath"... it might be the second... the first death metal riff is "Death Walks Behind You" by Atomic Rooster. For two reasons:

1) it is;

2) the song title contains the word "Death".

Actually three reasons..

3) the keyboard player on the track was the keyboard player in the Crazy World of Arthur Brown, which means that the guy played in both the first 0 wave black metal band and the first 0 wave death metal band. Makes perfect sense.

[BlutAusNerd]

14 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:  

To say that this difference is just a twist is akin to calling Outbreak of Evil a twist on Ace of Spades. The difference in cadence is a lot more than a "twist", as in both cases they're a lot darker and more aggressive than prior similar riffs in the examples given. I think the importance of lyrics is overstated, as while a lot of these bands had a common theme, it was the music that united them. Sure, there are precursors with anything, these sounds don't just materialize out of thin air, but there's a big difference between hinting at something and fully embracing it. You could almost call that middle riff with the key change in Sabbath Bloody Sabbath the first death metal riff, but it's more of an isolated precursor than a drastic departure from what came before.

 

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Ahahah well I think Angelripper would not deny that! [emoji4] Nice one!

As for "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath"... it might be the second... the first death metal riff is "Death Walks Behind You" by Atomic Rooster. For two reasons:

1) it is;

2) the song title contains the word "Death".

Actually three reasons..

3) the keyboard player on the track was the keyboard player in the Crazy World of Arthur Brown, which means that the guy played in both the first 0 wave black metal band and the first 0 wave death metal band. Makes perfect sense.

 

Eh, kind of. The theme is there, but it would require some translation to fit a death metal context, whereas that Sabbath Bloody Sabbath riff could be effortlessly dropped into the center of a death metal song and not raise any eyebrows.

 

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[Skull_Kollektor]

As a matter of fact that riff has been dropped effortlessly into this song by Gamma Gay pardon Gamma Ray (minute 2.20):

Apparently Gamma Ray cleared Youtube of unofficial copyright violating videos, so I had to rely on this sped-up remix... Never mind, the riff is there.