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What Are You Listening To?


khaos

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1 hour ago, markm said:

OK, I'm about ready to relinquish the arm wrestling contest and say uncle. I have a couple of final points. One is, I don't use consensus for everything. Any number of albums I get, come randomly to me, I see a review or a list of new releases or a recommendation or  I stalk some of the regulars here on my Bandcamp feed. But I do look at lists and reviews towards the end of the road to get an idea of albums I might want to check out due to the sheer volume of material released in a given year.

The other point that I don't think I have the energy or ability to precisely articulate has to do with with relative truth vs absolute truth. Opinions will vary. But there are objective standards when it comes to evaluating art that aren't completely random, arbitrary or a matter of individual whim. Of course, it all comes down to personal opinion ultimately. But personal opinion can be informed by education, knowledge, training, etc.

When Father Alabaster looks at art, as a professional artist, he will be able to see and understand things due to his training, and skill that I lack even though I will also have works of art that I like or dislike. His experience watching the Van Goh immersive exhibit, I would assume would be different than mine, even though I greatly enjoyed the exhibit in D.C. because of his experience. His ability to evaluate and pass judgement on a work of art will be different than mine. 

My wife and I saw King Lear with Hal Holbrook in L.A. My wife enjoyed it, but I studied it in a Shakespeare course in college and I performed in several Shakespeare plays. Lear is a tough play. It helps to have a good teacher point things out about the time, culture, and multiple layers of metaphor before seeing a performance to enhance your appreciation and enjoyment and to make an evaluation on the performance and production. 

Surely some level of objectivity can also be used when evaluating music.  

That's the beauty part. We can all use any methods we like to filter and evaluate our music. There's no right or wrong way to go about it. Results matter most. Whatever works for you/me/whomever is clearly the best way to go. Our personal opinions can be informed by whatever gets us the results that please us the most. I listen to music because of how it makes me feel. Music is visceral enjoyment for me as opposed to cerebral. It's a lizard brain thing I guess. But different people are drawn to the music they like for many different reasons. There's no single right way. Some people don't even care about music which is a foreign concept to me, but I guess it takes all kinds.

I happen to be a post-modernist. Our old friend Goldy pointed this out to me some years back. I actually had to look it up and I saw that he was right. I don't believe in any objective reality. I believe everything is subjective, there are no absolute truths - most especially when it comes to art. There is no right and wrong, only preference and taste. Right and wrong, as well as good and bad are societal constructs. I do not believe that anyone is any more equipped to evaluate and to pass judgement on anything as completely subjective as art (including: music, film, literature, architecture...) than anyone else. No one's taste is better than anyone else's and certainly no one's could ever be better than mine. Everything is relative, everything is fair game for criticism, everything needs to be challenged and questioned and mocked. I don't believe most of what I read or what I am told, I believe what I can see or hear or taste or touch or in some way verify for myself. I am also a skeptic as well as an iconoclast who values irreverance.

I suppose you as an educator might need to believe in some absolute truths in life and have some absolute sense of right and wrong in order to educate others. So maybe post-modernism and iconoclasm and totall irreverance aren't good qualities for teachers. Maybe that's why we see these things so differently.

I know midnight is late for you working stiffs, but I want you to know that I do sicerely appreciate the stimulating discussion we've had this evening Marky McMarkerson.

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Having a hell of a time working on this list of mine because I just have too many albums to work through. I can't listen to all of these contenders in just a few days, there aren't enough hours. Even doing partial listens as I am in an attempt to get through as many as possible, it's taking way too long. With so many albums of similarly high quality it's really hard to know if the one I have playing right this minute is a little better, about the same, or not quite as good as some of the other ones I listened to yesterday or Monday or Sunday....and I'm not even trying to rank them, I'm just trying to decide which ones will make the grade and which ones will have to be left off.

Surprisingly, the black metal list was easier for me this year to separate the haves from the have nots. I bought 112 black metal albums this past year. I started the listmaking process with 50 standout black metal albums on my 'short list' and I think the final lineup I can live with is just about set at 20. But the other list, which will have everything else besides black metal on it is kicking my ass. 2022 turned out to be a better year for death and black/death than it was for black metal. That list currently sits at 25 and I have a bunch more albums yet to listen to. Gonna try to get that one down to 20 as well. There have to be a few chinks in the armor somewhere, stuff I can rationalize removing.

 

Concilivm - A Monument in Darkness, Chilean death

 

Pneuma Hagion - Demiurge, death metal San Antonio

 

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11 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

That's the beauty part. We can all use any methods we like to filter and evaluate our music. There's no right or wrong way to go about it. Results matter most. Whatever works for you/me/whomever is clearly the best way to go. Our personal opinions can be informed by whatever gets us the results that please us the most. I listen to music because of how it makes me feel. Music is visceral enjoyment for me as opposed to cerebral. It's a lizard brain thing I guess. But different people are drawn to the music they like for many different reasons. There's no single right way. Some people don't even care about music which is a foreign concept to me, but I guess it takes all kinds.

I happen to be a post-modernist. Our old friend Goldy pointed this out to me some years back. I actually had to look it up and I saw that he was right. I don't believe in any objective reality. I believe everything is subjective, there are no absolute truths - most especially when it comes to art. There is no right and wrong, only preference and taste. Right and wrong, as well as good and bad are societal constructs. I do not believe that anyone is any more equipped to evaluate and to pass judgement on anything as completely subjective as art (including: music, film, literature, architecture...) than anyone else. No one's taste is better than anyone else's and certainly no one's could ever be better than mine. Everything is relative, everything is fair game for criticism, everything needs to be challenged and questioned and mocked. I don't believe most of what I read or what I am told, I believe what I can see or hear or taste or touch or in some way verify for myself. I am also a skeptic as well as an iconoclast who values irreverance.

I suppose you as an educator might need to believe in some absolute truths in life and have some absolute sense of right and wrong in order to educate others. So maybe post-modernism and iconoclasm and totall irreverance aren't good qualities for teachers. Maybe that's why we see these things so differently.

I know midnight is late for you working stiffs, but I want you to know that I do sicerely appreciate the stimulating discussion we've had this evening Marky McMarkerson.


Now, I agree that 50 albums a year isn't too many to spend time with. That's about where I am. But, you purchase hundreds and then pare that down to 50. I might listen to hundreds of tracks throughout the year from different albums, but just couldn't imagine spending the time I'd need to honestly evaluate hundreds of purchased albums. But you have an almost counterculture lifestyle not unlike my uncle by marriage, Harrold. More on that later....

Your strategy seems to work for you and that's great, but as I've said to you in the past as a model is inefficient. Most of us simply don't have the time.

I agree that art is ultimately subjective, but there is wise subjectivity based on information buoyed by background knowledge, and there is unwise  ignorant throw-darts-against the wall subjectivity. I'm not saying that's you, but what I mean is there are informed ways to come to  conclusions based on data and beta utilizing others' experiences or there is the lone wolf, I must be a blank slate.

Have you ever read a review (and I know, you generally avoid them) that starts like this.....I don't have much experience with black metal, but I decided to review  the classic, Pure Holocaust.  My reaction is always, well why should I pay any attention to your review if you have no experience with the genre!

Guess my point really is, that there can be poor/good/better/best ways to approach art appreciation and analysis. When good, it can open doors, provide incites that you might not come to on your own. If all art analysis was irrelevant and simply a matter of individual opinion without any criteria or matrix to review music with some degree of an an educated or informed "consensus" or objective analysis of subjective subject matter, why then there'd be no reason for any literary criticism at all-shit just order something randomly on Amazon based on the title; grab a random book from a library;  no reason to take a class in art history and so on.

I know in my own exploration of rock and metal, that books I've read have given my a better understanding of genres (Lords of Chaos, Encyclopedia of heavy metal, etc.) Jazz and classical would be over my head without some explanation of the lives of artists and composers, understanding of music theory for dummies. 

I want reviews. Life is short. Time is money, goddamnit. Give me beta!

Your strategy seems to be that you want to experience art, media etc. directly without any interference. In some ways, I understand that impulse. The downside is it requires you to sample thousands of albums a year to reach your own conclusions.  

You might be a postmodernist but you're also a nonconformist, contrarian and near counter culture individual. And I often find myself resisting with all my might the urge to bash myself upside my head with  my keyboard when debating you. You are, indeed a frustrating curmudgeon.

Now on about Harold. You remind me a little of my uncle by marriage, Harold, RIP Not in personality so much but in attitude. Mr. GG, you've described yourself to me as a classic under achiever, the smart kid that dropped out of college, dedicated himself with a singular mission to the art of headbanging and drove a truck until circumstances drastically and tragically changed. 

Now you live in the backwoods of Jersey in some kind of dueling banjo's horror B movie setting with frozen pipes and workers renovating a home to flip and to this day you've avoided the 9-5. Well done, sir! I do worry about you and your boy as you age and health insurance and all that because I am actually fond of you, but your a resourceful old hound.  

Harold worked as a young guy out of college on Wall street and had some kind of nervous breakdown. He moved to Atlanta and completely dropped out of the rat race. He delivered Newspapers for most of his life.

When I met Harrold he had married my aunt Sally and they were both middle aged. He lived in her house. They kept their finances completely separate. They had a great relationship. I doubt he helped pay her mortgage, I have no idea, but at any rate, he did all the cooking. He was a gourmet kind of dude. Harold got up every morning about 3 AM delivered papers. Came home took his nap and spent most of his time in the library. Did that almost to the day he died.

Like you, he didn't suffer fools, couldn't give two fucks for anybody's opinion. Harold was kind of a recluse. Brilliant well read guy, funny as hell but he refused to play the game and lived by his own rules. He had no time for Birthdays or Christmas. He was a lifelong atheist. 

But fuck it, he lead the life he chose. 

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2 hours ago, markm said:


Now, I agree that 50 albums a year isn't too many to spend time with. That's about where I am. But, you purchase hundreds and then pare that down to 50. I might listen to hundreds of tracks throughout the year from different albums, but just couldn't imagine spending the time I'd need to honestly evaluate hundreds of purchased albums. But you have an almost counterculture lifestyle not unlike my uncle by marriage, Harrold. More on that later....

Your strategy seems to work for you and that's great, but as I've said to you in the past as a model is inefficient. Most of us simply don't have the time.

I agree that art is ultimately subjective, but there is wise subjectivity based on information buoyed by background knowledge, and there is unwise  ignorant throw-darts-against the wall subjectivity. I'm not saying that's you, but what I mean is there are informed ways to come to  conclusions based on data and beta utilizing others' experiences or there is the lone wolf, I must be a blank slate.

Have you ever read a review (and I know, you generally avoid them) that starts like this.....I don't have much experience with black metal, but I decided to review  the classic, Pure Holocaust.  My reaction is always, well why should I pay any attention to your review if you have no experience with the genre!

Guess my point really is, that there can be poor/good/better/best ways to approach art appreciation and analysis. When good, it can open doors, provide incites that you might not come to on your own. If all art analysis was irrelevant and simply a matter of individual opinion without any criteria or matrix to review music with some degree of an an educated or informed "consensus" or objective analysis of subjective subject matter, why then there'd be no reason for any literary criticism at all-shit just order something randomly on Amazon based on the title; grab a random book from a library;  no reason to take a class in art history and so on.

I know in my own exploration of rock and metal, that books I've read have given my a better understanding of genres (Lords of Chaos, Encyclopedia of heavy metal, etc.) Jazz and classical would be over my head without some explanation of the lives of artists and composers, understanding of music theory for dummies. 

I want reviews. Life is short. Time is money, goddamnit. Give me beta!

Your strategy seems to be that you want to experience art, media etc. directly without any interference. In some ways, I understand that impulse. The downside is it requires you to sample thousands of albums a year to reach your own conclusions.  

You might be a postmodernist but you're also a nonconformist, contrarian and near counter culture individual. And I often find myself resisting with all my might the urge to bash myself upside my head with  my keyboard when debating you. You are, indeed a frustrating curmudgeon.

Now on about Harold. You remind me a little of my uncle by marriage, Harold, RIP Not in personality so much but in attitude. Mr. GG, you've described yourself to me as a classic under achiever, the smart kid that dropped out of college, dedicated himself with a singular mission to the art of headbanging and drove a truck until circumstances drastically and tragically changed. 

Now you live in the backwoods of Jersey in some kind of dueling banjo's horror B movie setting with frozen pipes and workers renovating a home to flip and to this day you've avoided the 9-5. Well done, sir! I do worry about you and your boy as you age and health insurance and all that because I am actually fond of you, but your a resourceful old hound.  

Harold worked as a young guy out of college on Wall street and had some kind of nervous breakdown. He moved to Atlanta and completely dropped out of the rat race. He delivered Newspapers for most of his life.

When I met Harrold he had married my aunt Sally and they were both middle aged. He lived in her house. They kept their finances completely separate. They had a great relationship. I doubt he helped pay her mortgage, I have no idea, but at any rate, he did all the cooking. He was a gourmet kind of dude. Harold got up every morning about 3 AM delivered papers. Came home took his nap and spent most of his time in the library. Did that almost to the day he died.

Like you, he didn't suffer fools, couldn't give two fucks for anybody's opinion. Harold was kind of a recluse. Brilliant well read guy, funny as hell but he refused to play the game and lived by his own rules. He had no time for Birthdays or Christmas. He was a lifelong atheist. 

But fuck it, he lead the life he chose. 

Yeah, I can see some uncle Harold in me too. Unfortunately I just forgot to do the part about working on Wall St. and banking them millions first. I'm much more of an underachiever than that. I don't have the time management skills nor the ambition nor the conformity gene to be successful in a university or a high pressure corporate setting like Wall St. I'm more of a free spirit and a dreamer. And yes a contrarian, and I totally embrace the counterculture. If I didn't have a little kid from a string of regrettably short-sighted midlife crisis decisions (let's just call it what it is) to think about, I could totally see myself becoming a recluse. I definitely subscribe to the drop out of the rat race, fuck the world and hole up in a cabin in the woods mentality. And yes, birthdays and Christmas are fucking stupid. All holidays are just like any other regular day to me except they close the damn stores and these stupid holidays always land on a day when I need to go get something. 

But with that bit of self-analysis out of the way...I never meant to suggest that art, music and literary criticism has no value, only that I like to experience the subject of that criticism first. I want to look at the sculpture, read the book or listen to the album first so I can form my own unfettered opinions before I look to see how others' opinions might stack up against my own. I do enjoy reading album reviews and stuff sometimes, but only for albums I've already heard and have formed my own opinions about. My opinion means much more to me than anyone else's, so I guess I tend to assume others will have their own strong opinions about stuff as well and will take mine with a grain of salt.

I don't see music criticism the same way I do literary or theatrical criticism though. Because with literature the author's background, life experiences, intentions and state of mind are all relevant and become intrinsic to that final product. While for me anyway, music is an entirely different animal. I don't care to concern myself with the artists' intentions. I don't even really need to know who the artists are, if the dude wants to go by "Ritual Butcherer" that's enough info for me. You know I don't care to read the lyrics for any extreme metal music. I don't even need to understand any music theory. (although I admit having a considerable curiosity about it) and except for maybe Tom G Warrior, I don't pedestalize metal artists. For the most part I like to separate the music from the artist and just take the music as a standalone product. Music is a huge part of my every day life and I need to be free to interpret it any way I want without restriction. Sound waves hit my ears and they have the ability to make me feel a certain way, and I don't want any outside interference with that basic, simple, beautifully pure and uncomplicated transaction. I'm a metalhead because I learned at a young age that the heavier the music, the more it resonated with me and the better it made me feel. Music appreciation is a very very personal thing and we all seek what speaks to us the clearest and makes the most sense to us and causes us to feel certain ways that we like. I pursue the limited number of sub-genres that I do because over time I have learned where my best shot to find the feelings I crave might come from, and where I'm pretty sure they won't come from. I'm chasing feelings here and I have to follow my instincts and look where they lead me. And if that ends up being to the goat paddock then so be it.

In some ways I think music criticism is pointless anyway because no one else is ever going to experience that piece of music exactly like the critic did. We all have to form our own personal connections with this stuff. The reason I consume so much music is because I'm searching for those special feelings that I can only get from the music that really resonates with me. Music affects the brain in similar ways as a drug they say, but it's not available on a shelf in a convenient little bottle where you can just grab the specific drugs by how the label says they'll affect you. Music is more trial and error or sometimes just dumb luck. Unlike a pharmaceutical drug where you have a good idea what the effects are supposed to be before you take it, I have absolutely no idea how any new albums might affect me until I hear them. And I'll usually have to hear them more than once or twice to really get the most out of them or the full effect. And with any given album the listener's experience is going to be completely different for everyone. We all have certain albums that we love because they make us feel a certain special way that we don't get from other albums. I'm hunting for those special albums and that's why I'm looking to listen to as many as I can, because I have no way to know which ones are going to be those special magical ones until I've listened to them a few times. If I knew beforehand which ones were gonna turn out to be the magic ones, I could just buy those special 40 that find their way onto my final year end list and be done with it.

I know this bothers some people, but music has honestly become more of a disposable commodity to me in my old age, and I'm cool with that. I figure spending $6.66 for a digital album is basically the same as buying a quad-shot latte at Starbucks or a chicken salad and bacon sandwich from the deli or a cold beer at the local pub. A few bucks for something that you will enjoy for 30 minutes seems fairly reasonable. If I get lucky and can manage to extract more lasting enjoyment out of even a small percentage of these albums that will get replayed many times and provide me more pleasure over a longer period of time, then I reckon that's a nice bonus. A great album is like a gift to yourself that keeps on giving. I'm well aware that not all of these albums are going to become staples of my future listening obviously, not most of them and not even close to half of them. But I don't waste time and energy regretting the majority of these albums that got listened to 3 or 4 times but didn't set their hooks in me so they got shelved forever, anymore than I'll regret when my $8 deli sandwich or my $6.66 latte is gone. Because I know that I can just grab another one tomorrow. I knew it was a wild longshot going in that any given album would become one of those special cherished albums that stay with me for many years or for life and become part of my DNA. But I figure the only way I'm gonna find those special albums is if I go out and actively look for them by listening to as many albums as I can. (fortunately they let us do that now in the 21st century, try before we buy, it's fucking awesome) So that's what drives my insatiable appetite for new music. I'm looking for that next Nefarious Dismal Orations, or Shades of God, or To Mega Therion, or In the Mist of Night or Whore of Bethlehem, or feel free to substitute whichever titles you might consider to be some of your most beloved and cherished albums. Finding another one of those would be like winning the fucking lottery. I know most of these albums aren't gonna turn out to be that magical winning golden ticket, but I've still gotta go down and keep buying those damn tickets or I'll surely be a loser.

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21 hours ago, markm said:

And, in my anecdotal experience, many of the more underground picks that make the grade in a given year-Undeath, Cerebral Rot, Undergang, Lamp of Murmuur, Profane Order, Of Feather and bone, Tomb Mold before they broke out of the cave, Nocroblood, etc., etc.- have a much greater chance for being keepers for me due to consensus. 

Mark, not to drag this back up too much, but this comment stood out as I was skimming through. I don't take issue with the idea of using some kind of consensus approval to try to cut out all the fat that gets released each year. We all have our own ways trying to find the best releases, and I've certainly used variations on the idea myself when there's a lot of albums I want to check out at one time. I also get the idea that having a deeper knowledge of something can enhance someone's understanding, and that it's well worth listening when they speak on a subject because they're likely to pick up on things most people miss.

There's a couple of things you may want to consider though. The first is that sometimes the whole is worth considerably more than the sum of its parts. Something can be done in a fashion that, from an objective view, would make an expert's hair turn white, but the product itself might be something truly unique and enjoyable. The second is that I think you're giving metal "experts" way too much credit. It seems like you're coming at this from the perspective that the people, particularly the ones from the bigger media outlets, are deeply knowledgeable music critics who all independently came to the same conclusion about whatever albums happen to be this years particular darlings. You're disregarding the idea that there's other, possible motivations for those albums being included.

Ask yourself this, how come none of them seemed to have any thoughts on say - Undeath's breakthrough album/debut at the time it came out? Or where exactly were these people when Tomb Mold dropped Primordial Malignity? Albums like the new Undeath aren't getting praised because the experts and the mainstream all came to the conclusion it's a really great album....at least not fully. What they're really doing is praising the shit out of it because "Legions...." was a killer album and the majority missed it at the time. You can see this over and over again, anytime an underground band finally makes good with a bigger audience. It's fear of missing out in the truest sense.

You want to find the real gems? If you ever see a band from the goat-side of things suddenly popping up on everyone's year end list, go back and find the previous release. That's the one you want to own

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Listening to the sound of the washing machine go around, because if I don't listen and wait for it to finish I'll get caught up doing something else and forget to hang the washing out. They should make household appliances play music for the course of their operation rather than having to listen to machine noise.

 

 

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Ange - Guet-Apens (1978)

Come on! Another day at work and I start it with French progressive rock!

This album is one of the best of its kind in France. All the tracks are memorable, especially the final track, Capitaine Coeur de Miel (Captain Honeyheart). 14 miraculous minutes!

Nemo - Barbares (2009)

Still French progressive rock, this time with more aggressive guitars: Nemo and his 2009 album, Barbares. A record full of emotion!

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    My bandcamp haul today. Trebling the number of female fronted entries on my 2022 list. I really like The Harvest by MWWB (probably best of bunch above). The vocals remind me of The Breeders or Verruca Salt or something. Those kind of laid back 90s alt-rock chick vocals.
     
    Someone here posted Messa the other day and I liked it enough this morning on first listen.
     
    Chat Pile is going to get quite a few listens I reckon. The atmosphere and production is right up mine alley.
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