What Are You Listening To?

[Dead1]

Things is falsetto and banshee vocals were still done in a powerful way.  

 

I absolutely hate the whiny effeminate cleans.

Eg like this track at 1 minute mark where Robb Flynn whines along like someone who needs a punch in the face:

 

 

[navybsn]

I'd rather eat a gooch than an olive. Must be something genetic. I've literally taken a bite out of something not knowing it had olives inside and gagged before I finished biting down. Texture thing I suppose. Regardless, you can also revile me for my complete and total rejection of strawberries and raw tomatoes. Id go full on Taylor Swift fanboi before I'd eat either.

[Thatguy]

40 minutes ago, navybsn said:

I'd rather eat a gooch than an olive. Must be something genetic.

Most things boil down to genetics.

And I've told you savages before, it's the perineum.

[SurgicalBrute]

15 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

And I've told you savages before, it's the perineum.

Goddammit...it's a taint, because it ain't one or the other

 

Fäust - Death From Beyond

Dissection worship...but maybe a bit to clean

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

1 hour ago, navybsn said:

I think that's a pretty reasonable position. We can't possibly like all music, but I think people should at least give something a go before rejecting it outright. I think of it like food. I'll try anything once. I may not like it, but unless I give it a try how would I know. I don't like cucumbers, pickles, or olives. You'll never see me put one in my mouth. I think they are disgusting, but I have tried them several times. I had an aversion to these as a kid, and since we all know our tastes change as we age, I've periodically given them a go to re-evaluate. I've done the same with music.

Back in the 80's, I had an aversion to classic rock (dad's music), goth/post-punk (loser kids), and country (fucking redneck shit). The older I get, the more I appreciate these specific styles. Classic rock - quite a bit of the non-radio regular songs (aka Deep Tracks) are pretty badass, and it takes me back to when pops and I had a good relationship before shit went sideways later in life. Post-punk - mainly for the musicianship and creativity. Peter Hook's brilliant bass lines, Robert Smith's lead guitar, Siouxie Sioux's vocal control, melodies, atmosphere. I would agree that much of it sucks, but the good shit is really good shit. Country - I just never appreciated it but old country, folk, and bluegrass can be just as raw, emotional, thought-provoking, and disturbing as any metal or rock. You gotta find the good stuff though. Not the crap you hear on the radio, then or now. Johnny Cash might be the most metal motherfucker that ever lived not named Lemmy. Some of it may be nostalgia for simpler times, but I think that's a) unavoidable and b) not necessarily a bad thing. Music is supposed to make you feel stuff, appreciate, enjoy, improve. Nostalgia is just another color in the crayola box.

All of our musical tastes are an accumulation of our likes, exposures, and life experiences. I came up playing in proper bands. Symphonic, jazz, and garage. I learned theory and composition as well. I trained on upright bass, electric bass, tuba, and trombone. So musicianship and composition speak to me more than the vocals. I can tolerate a less than stellar vocalist if everything else is in order, but I can also throw out something if the vocalist is terrible. Everyone comes to the table from a different direction, none of them are incorrect as long as they are not condemning everyone else for not going about it the "right" way. Just the fact that you're giving some of these bands a go is worthy of recognition. I revisit some bands I don't care for periodically in the same way I do cucumbers (olives will never get another shot) just to see if there's anything there I might enjoy these days. Might be Tool like a few nights ago or some overplayed 80's new wave like Tears for Fears. Sometimes I find something worthwhile, most times it goes back on the shelf for another go in a few years. You don't know unless you try.

And for the record, anyone who doesn't like the Ramones probably spent their life pursuing some mind-numbingly boring pursuit and has no sense of humor. Probably a drag at parties too.

You know it's funny you call classic rock your dad's music. My dad was born in 1934 (he died in 2007) and I guess he was just a little too old for classic rock. As far as I knew he liked 50's and 60's folk music almost exclusively, Kingston Trio, PP&M and especially Bob Dylan. So I guess those handful of Beatles albums in the record cabinet in the late 60's must have been my mom's. When I got to my teens I remember playing some hard rock for him a few times, Zeppelin, Sabbath, Aerosmith, Nugent, Hendrix...and he didn't make me turn it off, but it clearly wasn't doing anything for him. He didn't really listen to music that often like I do (they didn't even feel the need to have a radio in the family car in the 60's and early 70's - not until they started coming in most cars as standard equipment like power steering and power windows later in the 70's) but as he got older into his 50's in addition to Dylan he also got into (early) Billy Joel and Bruce Springsteen. He seemed to like songwriters who told stories with their lyrics, moreso than he was into the musical end of it. But then later in his 60's after he'd retired I noticed he had come around to embrace "classic rock" which he hadn't ever shown any interest in before when I was living there. And music really seemed to lighten him up, suddenly when I'd go over for holidays n stuff he'd always be downstairs jamming his classic rock music (Boston, Fleetwood Mac, Steely Dan, the Eagles, 70's stuff mostly) and smoking his cigars. I'm glad he found the joy of music before he died, not that we exactly bonded over it when he was alive (our bonding was over sports) but just since music has always been such an integral part of my life, I like to think that he shared and understood my love of music at the end of his life at least, even if it was different music. No idea what he'd think of extreme metal, I'm sure he'd laugh and make some smart-ass crack about it being just noise.

Ther food analogy is a good one. You'd never seriously rag on someone just for liking different foods than you, and ragging on people for liking different music than you is just as stupid. The music itself though is fair game to be deridden.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Serenity - Death & Legacy

Hmm There’s a few punchy tracks but overall I liked this more a decade ago, Colvin taste I guess

[GoatmasterGeneral]

7 hours ago, markm said:

I always appreciate your blunt honesty, even though I find myself smacking myself on my forehead sometimes. You know I like debating with you....

1- The middle school thing was just a reference point for that that time at a fairly young age when your musical tastes coalesce in a certain way. It could have come at age 15. For me it was middle school when I saw a clear fork in the road. I remember clearly picking Aerosmith and AC/DC over Donna Summer and Saturday Night Fever. Not to say, my taste haven't evolved-DOH!  Of course they have. But there was gravitational pull that I've felt in a certain direction for the most of my life. 

2-Man that walled off reference triggered you. You do know I was talking about myself, right? I was closed minded and ignored a lot of music that might have enriched me. By the way, the music I'm talking about-from Fugazi to 80's hardcore to Dinno Jr and Sonic Youth who I ventured into in more recent years were NOT on the radio. I'm not talking about Cyndi Lauper or Duran Duran ffs. 

3-Agreed, there's a big difference between the hard rock of AC/DC and CCR and The Kinks. I'm not a really big classic rock fan but I do like some of it. The Kinks have a long back discography with songs that were not on the radio. My point was more that I've always listened to more heavy music along with all kinds of other  music, but it was generally guitar driven. 

4-Macho bullshit stuff. Man, I had my hang ups with Depeche Mode or whatever and buying into machismo but you take the masculine/ feminine thing to an extreme. Like did someone waterboard you with Roy Orbison or something? Were you shut in a dark room with nothing but The Culture Club for 48 hours? Whatever you do, please, please never listen to Chino Moreno sing -that would be the Deftones vocalist btw-haha.

Look, taken to an extreme you could call Robert Plant's Hey Hey mamma vocals and intro the Immigrant song-effeminate-I mean the guy sang in a high register like a fucking girl, right? like literally anything other than extreme vocals-shit clean vocals of any kind-you know-NO CLEAN SINGING-taken to a point of absurdity is for wussies. Real men die with their boots on-grrrrrrr!!!!!!

We need to force you to listen to Navy's entire Cure and Smiths collection. Cold Turkey man. This can be dealt with.

I would point out that falsetto has been a part of rock and roll since it's inception.

Falsetto and high-pitched vocals weren't what I was talking about though. I have completely different issues with real high-pitched vocals that have nothing at all to do with masculinity. I'm actually cool with falsetto (for the most part) and for the record neither Roy Orbison's nor Robert Plant's singing voices come across as in any way feminine to me. Plant was probably my earliest rock hero that my 12 year old self wanted to emulate. Remember back in 1975 all singing was clean singing, there were no death growls or anything harsh like that yet so that wasn't what I wanted from rock vocalists at the time. 

I was talking specifically about that 80's post-punk male singing voice that sounds whiny or maybe moany and depressed and effeminate or possibly androgynous to me, but not usually all that high-pitched. A singing voice like you'd hear from the Smiths, and Joy Division, and The Cure, and Modern English and Culture Club, and the Pet Shop Boys, and 500 other 80's pop and PP bands. Those vocalists all seemed to me to have very similar tones to their singing voices, like it was expected of them or they were all copying each other. A tone or timbre unlike anything I'd ever heard before in my previous experience with macho 70's hard rock band vocalists, and it proved impossible for me to accept it or get past it back in the 80's. It's only within the last few years that I've been able to make any headway at all in this area.

Oh and since you bring them up, the Deftones make me sick. But they're from the 90's, and I'm talking about the very late 70's into the 80's here.

The walled-off reference didn't "trigger" me, I was just trying to relate to that feeling you described and explain it better. I was being philosophical, I didn't mean to come across as triggered or argumentative or hostile. Yes I do understand that you were talking about yourself, and I was talking about myself and my experiences. I was mentally putting myelf right there with you in the corridors of our respective high schools. I wasn't trying to debate you or tell you that you were wrong, was really just trying to have a conversation and add my perspective on things. 

 

This one goes out to Doc!

Huntingtons - Rocket to Ramonia - 1996 (Ramones cover album)

 

[MacabreEternal]

Diocletian - Doom Cult (2009)

Stop eating olives (and goochies) ya mentalists and listen to Diocletian instead.

[Thatguy]

4 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

This one goes out to Doc!

Huntingtons - Rocket to Ramonia - 1996 (Ramones cover album)

Ya can't make me.

 

4 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

A singing voice like you'd hear from the Smiths

Thatguy hates the Smiffs too.

 

1 hour ago, MacabreEternal said:

listen to Diocletian instead.

Yep.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

DIOCLETIAN @ California Deathfest III

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

Diocletian - Amongst the Flames of a Burning God, NZ 2019

 

[navybsn]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

Thatguy hates the Smiffs too

Something we can agree on.

6 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Those vocalists all seemed to me to have very similar tones to their singing voices, like it was expected of them or they were all copying each other

They were. Most were trying to emulate Ian Curtis of Joy Division, Robert Smith of the Cure, or Peter Murphy of Bauhaus.

7 hours ago, SurgicalBrute said:

Goddammit...it's a taint, because it ain't one or the other

This is the correct answer.

2 hours ago, MacabreEternal said:

Stop eating olives (and goochies) ya mentalists and listen to Diocletian instead.

This is the way. But I'll do one better.

Teitanblood - Seven Chalices

 

[markm]

14 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Falsetto and high-pitched vocals weren't what I was talking about though. I have completely different issues with real high-pitched vocals that have nothing at all to do with masculinity. I'm actually cool with falsetto (for the most part) and for the record neither Roy Orbison's nor Robert Plant's singing voices come across as in any way feminine to me. Plant was probably my earliest rock hero that my 12 year old self wanted to emulate. Remember back in 1975 all singing was clean singing, there were no death growls or anything harsh like that yet so that wasn't what I wanted from rock vocalists at the time. 

I was talking specifically about that 80's post-punk male singing voice that sounds whiny or maybe moany and depressed and effeminate or possibly androgynous to me, but not usually all that high-pitched. A singing voice like you'd hear from the Smiths, and Joy Division, and The Cure, and Modern English and Culture Club, and the Pet Shop Boys, and 500 other 80's pop and PP bands. Those vocalists all seemed to me to have very similar tones to their singing voices, like it was expected of them or they were all copying each other. A tone or timbre unlike anything I'd ever heard before in my previous experience with macho 70's hard rock band vocalists, and it proved impossible for me to accept it or get past it back in the 80's. It's only within the last few years that I've been able to make any headway at all in this area.

Oh and since you bring them up, the Deftones make me sick. But they're from the 90's, and I'm talking about the very late 70's into the 80's here.

The walled-off reference didn't "trigger" me, I was just trying to relate to that feeling you described and explain it better. I was being philosophical, I didn't mean to come across as triggered or argumentative or hostile. Yes I do understand that you were talking about yourself, and I was talking about myself and my experiences. I was mentally putting myelf right there with you in the corridors of our respective high schools. I wasn't trying to debate you or tell you that you were wrong, was really just trying to have a conversation and add my perspective on things. 

 

 

Fair enough-just seemed like you personalized my walled off remark and I wanted to make sure it was clear I was 100% reflecting on my own behavior patterns and wasn't pointing fingers at anyone else. Triggered might be too strong, but I do think you're defensive about the idea of being closed minded because people have probably told you that your whole life. In my own way, I was trying to say I've been closed minded as well but in a different way. 

You've been railing against pop radio-friendly, commercial music your whole life. I get it. I have also, really. For the most part, I despise pop. But when I think of pop, I think of top 40. Some rock or classic rock or alternative gets into the weekly top 40 charts, but I think a lot of what we call classic rock may not have actually charted in the top 40. Just speculating here, as I don't know shit about how singles are charted.

I don't think we're that far apart except you seem to dislike rock radio as much as pop stations. To me, classic rock stations are different than the hip-hop, dance pop stations. I differentiate what they used to call pop rock with today's top 40.  I don't love FM rock, I'm pretty sick of most of the songs. But, I'll take it over today's pop that for the most part is dance oriented or hip hop. I simply feel the need to support artists who are actually playing guitar driven music, including acoustic  singer songwriter types and some indie rock which is going to include a fair amount of commercial music with pop sensibilities. 

The post punk sound is pretty copycat vocally from the stuff that seems to be coming out now. For the record, I think Ian Curtis had a baritone masculinity in his vocals compared to Robert Smith or Simone Le Bon. Not a fan of that whole style of whiney vocals. The guy that sang in B52s never bothered me as he sounds like an out gay dude who always waved his flag flamboyantly. I kind of like that, actually. Takes some courage. But a lot of people do seem to imitate the whiny and also the morose sad boy style. 

[markm]

King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard/Omnium Gatherum 

[FatherAlabaster]

Patriot Sunrise Motion - Black Fellflower Stream   ...going back through my wishlist. It's full of garbage and mood listens that aren't worth the dosh right now, but this is one of the good ones. Fits in well with my recent KJ binge. 

[AlSymerz]

The Chats - Get This In Ya

 

[Thatguy]

DIOCLETIAN - Gesundrian. Say no more.

 

[Serpentboi1992]

[Serpentboi1992]

[markm]

18 hours ago, navybsn said:

I came up playing in proper bands. Symphonic, jazz, and garage. I learned theory and composition as well. I trained on upright bass, electric bass, tuba, and trombone. So musicianship and composition speak to me more than the vocals. I can tolerate a less than stellar vocalist if everything else is in order, but I can also throw out something if the vocalist is terrible.

I'm probably having a senior moment, but I didn't know you were so musically accomplished. Respect! 

[navybsn]

3 hours ago, markm said:

I'm probably having a senior moment, but I didn't know you were so musically accomplished. Respect! 

Yeah don't put too much into it. I stopped after HS because I realized the only career paths were fairly unrewarding. Teach (yeah I know you know dude), perform (thousands more talented), or try to put together a commercial enterprise. I decided that I wanted to eat and have a home, so I sought out a different path. Most of my buddies from that time who continued on no longer work in the field. I had no resources growing up (no money and an unsupportive family) so it was quick and easy to make that choice. The others had better circumstances which just ultimately delayed the inevitable. Wasted potential possibly, but the trophies honors and awards wouldn't pay the bills. I was first chair all-state in '92 on tuba, but that wasn't even worth a scholarship audition at any reputable university with a decent program. Probably worse these days.

I still have a passion for the bass. I haven't played in years because of time. Would have to start over from scratch. But once upon a time I was pretty decent. Always idolized the greats like Geddy, Steve Harris, JPJ, and Entwhistle. Sought out music with great bass lines like Joy Division, the Cure, or various prog rock bands. Like I mentioned above, it literally shaped my musical tastes. I'm still at a point where it takes work to get into anything that doesn't have reasonable noticeable bass in the production. Surely the other musicians in the bunch can relate in their own way.

One of these days I may take up banjo or mandolin. But my wife will likely object that it's just another money pit hobby that I have enough of already. And she's probably right.

[markm]

Russian Circles-Gnosis

Wake-Thought from Descent-giving this one another go

[GoatmasterGeneral]

8 hours ago, markm said:

Fair enough-just seemed like you personalized my walled off remark and I wanted to make sure it was clear I was 100% reflecting on my own behavior patterns and wasn't pointing fingers at anyone else. Triggered might be too strong, but I do think you're defensive about the idea of being closed minded because people have probably told you that your whole life. In my own way, I was trying to say I've been closed minded as well but in a different way. 

You've been railing against pop radio-friendly, commercial music your whole life. I get it. I have also, really. For the most part, I despise pop. But when I think of pop, I think of top 40. Some rock or classic rock or alternative gets into the weekly top 40 charts, but I think a lot of what we call classic rock may not have actually charted in the top 40. Just speculating here, as I don't know shit about how singles are charted.

I don't think we're that far apart except you seem to dislike rock radio as much as pop stations. To me, classic rock stations are different than the hip-hop, dance pop stations. I differentiate what they used to call pop rock with today's top 40.  I don't love FM rock, I'm pretty sick of most of the songs. But, I'll take it over today's pop that for the most part is dance oriented or hip hop. I simply feel the need to support artists who are actually playing guitar driven music, including acoustic  singer songwriter types and some indie rock which is going to include a fair amount of commercial music with pop sensibilities. 

The post punk sound is pretty copycat vocally from the stuff that seems to be coming out now. For the record, I think Ian Curtis had a baritone masculinity in his vocals compared to Robert Smith or Simone Le Bon. Not a fan of that whole style of whiney vocals. The guy that sang in B52s never bothered me as he sounds like an out gay dude who always waved his flag flamboyantly. I kind of like that, actually. Takes some courage. But a lot of people do seem to imitate the whiny and also the morose sad boy style. 

When I was a kid in the 60's the term popular music just meant all the crap they played on the radio for the normies to listen to, as a way to differentiate that from what were thought of as more 'serious' forms of music, such as classical and jazz, or specialty stuff like show tunes or gospel. Wasn't like today where within the various musical genres we have layers going from mainstream, to sub mainstream, down to the various degrees of undergroundness. Back then there just weren't that many different musical genres. We basically just had popular music for the masses and then stuff like classical and jazz was for the elites. But the record stores in those days generally lumped all the rock music in with the pop, and the Motown stuff, and the Sinatra crooner stuff, it all just went together under the heading of 'popular music.' And of course in some markets there were also separate sections for country for the shit kickers, gospel for the pious, and show tunes for the squares. I can remember seeing stores in the late 60's and 70's that had combo sections with names like rock/pop and rock/R&B. I also remember hearing (typically) older people who were somewhat miffed that they would mix the black music in with the white music.

It wasn't until years later, sometime in the early/mid 80's if I had to guess, when Madonna and Michael Jackson ruled the airwaves that the term 'pop music' came to mean the inane, lightweight, confectionery, dancey drivel we think of today. This music which I believe you like to call 'pop' I generally prefer to call that top 40, to differentiate it from classic radio rock which to me is also pop music. Most of the older classic rock songs were originally released as singles which absolutely appeared on the top 40 charts back in their day. (except for stuff like Pink Floyd and Zeppelin which are mostly album tracks pulled from former Billboard chart topping albums, but were never standalone chart topping singles) But radio won't play anything current, so obviously classic rock songs aren't gonna chart on the top 40 today if they're already 40 years old. Thing to remember is music can be rock and pop at the same time, like the Beatles for instance. I do believe there is such a thing as good rock music, but unfortunately the good stuff doesn't often find its way onto the radio, at least not anymore. I totally understand why many people make the distinction between classic rock and dance/pop/hip-hop, I can hear the difference and I've been known to use these terms myself. But as far as I'm concerned the bigger picture is that if it's being broadcast on commercial radio then by definition it's shitty pop music, full stop. I feel no more connection to bands playing shitty pop music with guitars (much less want to support them) than I would if they're playing mainly electronic based music. I don't even really understand that sentiment to be honest. 

Because I mean they've been playing the exact same 300 fucking songs on classic rock radio for the last 40-50 years, the only additions over that time being a few newer songs from that same small select group of household name legacy bands who have been deemed acceptable to go out over the airwaves, as well as a few of the catchier hair band tunes from the 80's (Motley Crue, Poison, Twisted Sister, Crazy Train, Paradise City...) that I would most definitely classify as shitty pop music. Certain grunge tunes from the early 90's got some radio play too, but that's the most recent stuff I can think of, there's really nothing much from this century. Everyone knows these 300 radio songs (or 400, or whatever the actual number is) and I suppose a lot of people must really like them a lot or they wouldn't keep on playing the exact same ones into the ground decade after decade in perpetuity. Seems inevitable that classic rock will have to die a long overdue death at some point, but fuckin' hell, it's sure taking a long damn time. We might have to wait til the entire classic rock generation dies off to be rid of it.  Problem is in the meantime it's miraculously somehow still garnering some new younger fans, so who knows, we might very well be stuck with this shit like it were radioactive waste or something until Jon-O's forewarned societal collapse rolls around and then electronics, and by extension recorded music ceases to be a thing.

Now with all that said, I fucking love the B-52's! I'm not above enjoying certain shitty pop songs every now and then when the mood strikes me. But I always remain conscious of the fact that it's shitty pop music. I can't speak to 'indie rock' as I've never really heard any of it. Just a bunch more bands where I recognize some of the names but have not even the slightest clue what they might sound like.

[Dead1]

Nifelheim - Envoy Of Lucifer - man, I dig this album!

Destroyer 666 - Never Surrender!  - new album!

[FatherAlabaster]

3 hours ago, navybsn said:

One of these days I may take up banjo or mandolin. But my wife will likely object that it's just another money pit hobby that I have enough of already. And she's probably right.

It sucks you had to put playing music aside. You should pick it back up. It's good for you.