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khaos

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17 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

But that's my whole point Jon. When you ask "can anyone think of one instance of a lynching in the court of public opinion based on an accusation with no evidence?" I honestly wouldn't know because I often don't care quite enough to put in the time & effort to dig deep and do my own research. At least not when it comes to celebrities. Believe me I hate all that "modern celebrity obsessed/social media driven culture" just as much as you do. 

And that is my point. This crucifixion without evidence thing just does not seem to actually happen, even if in theory it could. It's like the obsession with thinking a welfare state/universal healthcare is somehow evil and "un-American" because, in theory, it can be abused. Sure, it can be abused but the proportion of abuse (compared to the benefits) is tiny - same as voter fraud.

It's pretty unlikely that something you said twenty years ago is actually gonna come back and bite you. Mainly because no one cares since you are not a celebrity. If, on the off chance, you run for office in a few years and someone digs up your anti-Christian messages and love of vile and blackened music then you'll just shrug it off. "Yeah so what!" Not that they know who you are, because you post anonymously.

The justice system may be riddled with injustice, but every person in prison went through a trial where evidence was presented. If the evidence was cooked up, that is an entirely different issue. No one is ever crucified without any evidence. That is my point. 

17 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I think we've gotten to a point where if any offhand comment can get someone essentially crucified on social media and totally destroy their livelihood then maybe we need to rein things in a bit and take another look. Because it works both ways, if we 'the righteous' can do it to them, then the deplorables can do it to us too. Where does it end? I think the principles of free speech should protect both sides equally, right or wrong. Again, I am not in any way defending murderers or abusers or criminals. But If someone just says or thinks things that we don't happen to agree with (or maybe wants to burn a flag) then I believe that's just the price we all have to pay to live in a free democratic society. It's not actually 1984 yet, is it? Do we still have time to fix this mess before all reason and sense is lost? 

The internet is self-regulating in the sense that it is so full of shit that it is not reliable as a source of information anymore. I think most people with half a brain understand that and that is enough to keep the wolf from the door. So, you still have not cited a single case of someone having their livelihood destroyed that didn't deserve it - because there was evidence. 

I get that you can't be expected to research this to find an example.....so then don't worry about it. It is not an actual problem. 

I am a massive sceptic too and so my scepticism dictates that the bogeyman of cancel culture isn't an existential threat to humanity.

The only things that matter in a universal sense (and hence the only major issues you should worry about or spend emotional energy on) are:

1. impending collapse of the Earth's ecosystems and its capacity to support life; and

2. metal.

No more, no less.

 

 

 

 

NP:

Ocean Machine - Biomech

(my CD is from before it got re-branded as a Devin Townsend solo album)

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15 hours ago, JonoBlade said:

And that is my point. This crucifixion without evidence thing just does not seem to actually happen, even if in theory it could.

Okay...I'm absolutely going to regret this I'm sure, but I guess I'm too stupid to not jump on this hand grenade.

Regarding people who were accused and punished without evidence:

I mean, the whole thing with Johnny Depp for one. Now I'm not saying he was an angel, it sounds like they were both toxic as fuck with each other, but at the very beginning the accusations alone were enough that among other things, he lost his role in those Harry potter movies, was dropped by Disney from the Pirates films, and had that Dior marketing campaign yanked. Hell, they've even got Heard basically bragging about how no one would ever believe him.

If you're familair with video games, you had Nolan Bushnell, co-founder of Atari. He had an award from GDC rescinded because he was labeled as a sexist and sexual harasser by several lunatics who wanted to create some kind of #metoo moment for the video game industry. Now this one got stopped in its tracks before it got too out of hand, but it started gaining ground until people who worked with him, especially some of women like Loni Reeder who'd actually been there in those early days, stood up to defend him.

Maybe you heard of the whole "Mattress Girl" situation at Colombia University where Paul Nungesser was accused of rape by Emma Sulkowicz? They were friends who'd had a few hookups together at the school. After one hook up, she filed charges with both the University and the Police accusing him of rape. Both investigated, neither took action. So she started the whole carrying around a mattress everywhere she went as a protest. While Nungesser was still able to graduate, his life on campus became a living hell. He was ostracized, harassed, threatened, had both students and faculty telling him he should drop out. Now this may sound like a typical "system lets the victim down" situation, but he was able to provide multiple social media posts from after the rape supposedly happened, where she continued to reach out to him, wanting to get together, hang out, etc.

15 hours ago, JonoBlade said:

It's pretty unlikely that something you said twenty years ago is actually gonna come back and bite you.

Alexi McCammond lost her editor-and-chief job at Teen Vogue, that she'd literally just gotten, because of some people who were pissed off about her promotion and didn't want to work for her. So they managed to dig up tweets she'd made when she was 17...roughly 10 years before hand. Things she'd already admitted to, and apologized for previously. Didn't matter, advertisers started pulling their funds, and she was booted out the door.

 

Additionally, I feel like the premise of your argument is incorrect. No one is saying there isn't "evidence". What most people are saying is that the so-called "evidence" either lacks context, is interpreted in the most vile way possible to stir up a mob, or that the punishment often exceeds the supposed crime.

Howard Buachner was basically forced out of his role as the Editor-in-Chief of the Journal of the American Medical Association because of backlash over comments made about systemic racism by two other editors on an entirely separate podcast. 

Dr. Bret Weinstein of Evergreen State College, who I admittedly disagree with regarding his stance on Covid vaccines, was threatened, accused of racism, had his classes disrupted, and was ultimately forced to resign because he pointed out "There is a huge difference between a group or coalition deciding to voluntarily absent themselves from a shared space in order to highlight their vital and underappreciated roles.... and a group encouraging another group to go away." regarding changes to the schools Day of Absence

Colin Moriarty was a co-founder of Kinda Funny, an online video games entertainment company that does podcast, videos, etc. He was forced out of the company because on a day where women were supposedly "staying off social media" he made a crack along the lines of "silence at last" on his personal Twitter. Now, he's landed on his feet and doing just fine, I won't deny, but because of what basically amounts to a dad joke, a generally left leaning guy is now forever labeled things like "alt-right" and "nazi" by large sections of the industry.

Chris Pratt is someone the online loons go after over and over again because he supposedly belongs to a church that spun off from those Westboro nutjobs (he doesn't). Because of this, during the announcement of his daughters birth, where he said he was happy she was here and healthy, people online tried to twist that into him supposedly taking a dig at his first wife and his son who was born with health issues, and suddenly peple were screaming Chris Pratt was ableist.

 

...and lets be real here. Celebrities overcoming these accusations is a bug, not a feature. Just because many of them have enough money and connections to get past it, doesn't change the fact that the ultimate goal is to wreck their careers. When these things happen to people who aren't celebrities, the results are often much worse.

There was a case at Smith College when a student was told a cafeteria she was sitting in was actually closed. She turned around and accused the staff of being racist. Even though the staff was cleared by an independent investigation, several members were essentially forced out, including one guy who wasn't even involved because the accuser mistakenly posted his image on her social media.

Composer Bright Sheng at the University of Michigan was essentially forced to step down from his teaching position because he showed his class the 1965 film Othello, because it has Laurence Olivia in blackface.

Hannah Fischthal was fired from her teaching job at St John's University because she read a passage from Mark Twain’s anti-slavery novel 'Pudd’nhead Wilson' in her 'Literature of Satire' class that contained an N-bomb in it.

 

You can call it cancel culture, you can call it consequence culture, but I have to completely disagree with the idea it doesn't actually exist. There's too many incidences like this happening to deny it.

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11 hours ago, JonoBlade said:

And that is my point. This crucifixion without evidence thing just does not seem to actually happen, even if in theory it could. It's like the obsession with thinking a welfare state/universal healthcare is somehow evil and "un-American" because, in theory, it can be abused. Sure, it can be abused but the proportion of abuse (compared to the benefits) is tiny - same as voter fraud.

To be honest sometimes lynching in the court of public opinion is the only solution.

 

We've got a Royal Commission into Child Abuse right now.  One of the main drivers was the fact that the children's ward as well as juvenile detention facility employed a paedophile nurse for over 20 years.  Not in 1950s or 1960s but up to now ie 1990s through to 2010s. 

He had been reported numerous times but neither the hospital administration nor the police chose to pursue it.  Seems he abused dozens if not hundreds of children.

So a  podcast was started where victims spoke up.  Local media got involved and the pressure forced the police to start investigating properly.  The pedo committed suicide (good riddance, I hope he suffered).

So now we have a Royal Commission to figure out how such an individual could have kept working with children for such a long period despite numerous allegations.

Without "court of public opinion" this would have continued to be simply swept under the carpet.

 (Personally I was shocked as I knew some of the management staff at the kids ward and was horrified they didn't do anything about it - most quickly left the service for other states.  But then the hospital I work for has officially killed over a dozen patients in recent years due to negligence and neglect and still won't change its course.  And the doctors and nurses cover for themselves - we are currently employing a doctor against who there was a formal complaint for sexual harassment (he also refuses to see some patients).  However the head doctor refuses to put anything on paper and the harassment claim has been sealed due to "privacy" so guy continues working for us.)

 

np Pantera - Cowboys from Hell 

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