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Metal Vs. . . . . . everything else


Zyggiefromjiu

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Well, if this is a discussion on punk and hardcore...I've hated hardcore and punk for as long as I can remember, but that's more to do with personal taste than necessarily technical ability. -Core music generally doesn't do it for me, the vocals immediately put me off and usually the rest of the music is immediately anathema. That's what ultimately ruins most of Freak Kitchen's material to my ears even though it's well-done stuff with some of the best and funniest lyrics I've ever read.

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Well' date=' if this is a discussion on punk and hardcore...I've hated hardcore and punk for as long as I can remember, but that's more to do with personal taste than necessarily technical ability. -Core music generally doesn't do it for me, the vocals immediately put me off and usually the rest of the music is immediately anathema. That's what ultimately ruins most of Freak Kitchen's material to my ears even though it's well-done stuff with some of the best and funniest lyrics I've ever read.[/quote'] There's plenty of it that I hate, too (especially punk); but it's worth making the point that, as you say, it's mostly a taste issue. It's the "NTNR fallacy" - assuming that, if you don't like something, it objectively sucks. :D
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Honestly' date=' I can't fucking stand them, can't get through a single song.[/quote'] That doesn't surprise me at all. I honestly expected to hate them, but the song I heard didn't piss me off much. Try Attila.
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What are some "true" metalcore bands? All I ever see are metalcore bands listed as such, plus other genres as well, not JUST metalcore as their one and only genre. This always confuses me, I usually just say good metal, or bad metal=P If Straight Line Stitch is considered "metalcore," because she screams, then I guess I kind of like it.

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@Mindy - That's probably because it depends on who you ask. Metalcore is a hybrid to begin with. I usually point people to Converge's album "When Forever Comes Crashing" or Dillinger Escape Plan's "Calculating Infinity". As Iceni says, BAN usually recommends Ringworm. I know quite a few people who would say we're wrong, that that stuff isn't "real" metalcore, and they'd point you to Killswitch Engage or Shadows Fall, or if they wanted to be mean, Attack Attack. :D There are several threads from a little while ago where we all talked about this at length... I run into the same thing with other genres too, for instance the crossover between melodic black metal and "melodeath" in Scandinavia in the 90s. There are a lot of ultimately subjective opinions about what "counts" as belonging to a certain genre rather than another. I see BAN's often-made point about the atmosphere and intent of a genre counting for more than superficial things like technique, but for me it comes down to (sometimes minor) differences in song structure and textural/sonic elements (like muting and drum patterns), as well as vocal approach. None of it is a value judgement; just because something typifies a genre doesn't mean it's any good, or the other way around if you prefer. I still think the conversation often winds up splitting hairs for very little gain.

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@Mindy - That's probably because it depends on who you ask. Metalcore is a hybrid to begin with. I usually point people to Converge's album "When Forever Comes Crashing" or Dillinger Escape Plan's "Calculating Infinity". As Iceni says, BAN usually recommends Ringworm. I know quite a few people who would say we're wrong, that that stuff isn't "real" metalcore, and they'd point you to Killswitch Engage or Shadows Fall, or if they wanted to be mean, Attack Attack. :D There are several threads from a little while ago where we all talked about this at length... I run into the same thing with other genres too, for instance the crossover between melodic black metal and "melodeath" in Scandinavia in the 90s. There are a lot of ultimately subjective opinions about what "counts" as belonging to a certain genre rather than another. I see BAN's often-made point about the atmosphere and intent of a genre counting for more than superficial things like technique, but for me it comes down to (sometimes minor) differences in song structure and textural/sonic elements (like muting and drum patterns), as well as vocal approach. None of it is a value judgement; just because something typifies a genre doesn't mean it's any good, or the other way around if you prefer. I still think the conversation often winds up splitting hairs for very little gain.
Yes it is all very confusing to me. ha. I will hear a song, and if I like it, I like it, no need for me to think to myself "Oh, NOT real metal, NOT Slayer esque, MUST .....NOT.....LLIIKKEEEE." I probably honestly like at least ONE band or a few songs by various bands in ever single metal genre except for power metal. I am not a fan of people so hardcore into black metal or death metal who I have had conversations with who yell at me because I might say I like one or two songs by Underoath or Trivium. I mean I do not know, I do not play any instruments, so I do not generally strain my ears while listening to metal to see if I can detect crazy, unheard of, guitar riffs etc, except certain favorite bands of mine it is obvious, but not all. I am rather open, anywhere from as said Trivium, to Opera IX, it does not matter to me, tis all metal=)
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Yes it is all very confusing to me. ha. I will hear a song' date=' and if I like it, I like it, no need for me to think to myself "Oh, NOT real metal, NOT Slayer esque, MUST .....NOT.....LLIIKKEEEE." I probably honestly like at least ONE band or a few songs by various bands in ever single metal genre except for power metal. I am not a fan of people so hardcore into black metal or death metal who I have had conversations with who yell at me because I might say I like one or two songs by Underoath or Trivium. I mean I do not know, I do not play any instruments, so I do not generally strain my ears while listening to metal to see if I can detect crazy, unheard of, guitar riffs etc, except certain favorite bands of mine it is obvious, but not all. I am rather open, anywhere from as said Trivium, to Opera IX, it does not matter to me, tis all metal=)[/quote'] In response to your first question from earlier as to "true" metalcore bands, FA mentioned a few fine choices. I'm not super into the genre, so I don't have a ton of details, but most of the bands listed on Rateyourmusic.com under metalcore in their Top 100 list should represent it pretty well. Some melodic metalcore bands are on that list, which is that Killswitch Engage/As I Lay Dying type of sound, which may have had some basis in metalcore initially (Shadows Fall's first 2 albums actually aren't bad), but definitely became much more pop oriented later on. There are still elements of metal and hardcore, or what we are calling "metalcore" in there, but I tend to label bands based on the majority of their sound, as I can't very well call Overkill a doom metal band because of the song Skullcrusher. There are different things that signify where the roots of a band's sound lie that can be heard in the music, phrasing, writing and playing styles, themes, etc... which would give insight as to what genre a band mostly fits into. Hybrid genres are tough, because determining which side may play a larger part in the sound can't really be quantified, I guess for me it's more about the feelings that it invokes in me and the atmosphere it creates, and how I relate that to other music that I have heard. This is not to say that it's not at least somewhat subjective or that I have a better idea than someone else, but I tend to start exploring genres where they began and listening to the influences they would pass down to later artists, so I have some background in tracing sounds back to their roots. It is confusing, and most of the time it doesn't make much of a difference. If you said that you were a fan of Opeth and you wanted to check out bands that also emphasized parts X, Y, and Z of their sound, I would likely send you bands from a number of genres. Just using the genre tag "progressive death metal" might get you some stuff that is close (Edge of Sanity) and some stuff that isn't (Lykathea Aflame), whereas bands from outside of Opeth's genre, like Agalloch (dark/folk metal), Primordial (folk/black metal), October Tide (melodic doom/death metal), etc... would be much closer. Genres can be helpful, but making them a catch all or exclusive for no reason is stupid. I prefer to use them as a tool to discover and recommend music, but they can be used for pedantry and elitism as well, which really don't serve the music at all. Like what you like, learn what comprises a given genre or sound, and pay as much attention to it as you would like, if you or others find it helpful, great, if not, oh well. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
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In response to your first question from earlier as to "true" metalcore bands, FA mentioned a few fine choices. I'm not super into the genre, so I don't have a ton of details, but most of the bands listed on Rateyourmusic.com under metalcore in their Top 100 list should represent it pretty well. Some melodic metalcore bands are on that list, which is that Killswitch Engage/As I Lay Dying type of sound, which may have had some basis in metalcore initially (Shadows Fall's first 2 albums actually aren't bad), but definitely became much more pop oriented later on. There are still elements of metal and hardcore, or what we are calling "metalcore" in there, but I tend to label bands based on the majority of their sound, as I can't very well call Overkill a doom metal band because of the song Skullcrusher. There are different things that signify where the roots of a band's sound lie that can be heard in the music, phrasing, writing and playing styles, themes, etc... which would give insight as to what genre a band mostly fits into. Hybrid genres are tough, because determining which side may play a larger part in the sound can't really be quantified, I guess for me it's more about the feelings that it invokes in me and the atmosphere it creates, and how I relate that to other music that I have heard. This is not to say that it's not at least somewhat subjective or that I have a better idea than someone else, but I tend to start exploring genres where they began and listening to the influences they would pass down to later artists, so I have some background in tracing sounds back to their roots. It is confusing, and most of the time it doesn't make much of a difference. If you said that you were a fan of Opeth and you wanted to check out bands that also emphasized parts X, Y, and Z of their sound, I would likely send you bands from a number of genres. Just using the genre tag "progressive death metal" might get you some stuff that is close (Edge of Sanity) and some stuff that isn't (Lykathea Aflame), whereas bands from outside of Opeth's genre, like Agalloch (dark/folk metal), Primordial (folk/black metal), October Tide (melodic doom/death metal), etc... would be much closer. Genres can be helpful, but making them a catch all or exclusive for no reason is stupid. I prefer to use them as a tool to discover and recommend music, but they can be used for pedantry and elitism as well, which really don't serve the music at all. Like what you like, learn what comprises a given genre or sound, and pay as much attention to it as you would like, if you or others find it helpful, great, if not, oh well. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
Well said!!
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As a follow up to your comment about liking something from any given metal genre other than power metal, I have to ask, which bands are you familiar with? If I was only ever introduced to the limp-wristed and poppy European style of power metal, I could definitely see being put off by it, but there is a ton of awesome power metal that is actually powerful, as the name would imply. Most of it happened in the 80's in the US and Germany, but there were still good bands doing it in other areas and times. If you would like a taste, sample the early US scene with the 80's works from Riot, Jag Panzer, Helstar, Metal Church, Savatage, Liege Lord, Crimson Glory, Omen, Sanctuary, Vicious Rumors, etc..., and see if maybe it changes your mind. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

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As a follow up to your comment about liking something from any given metal genre other than power metal, I have to ask, which bands are you familiar with? If I was only ever introduced to the limp-wristed and poppy European style of power metal, I could definitely see being put off by it, but there is a ton of awesome power metal that is actually powerful, as the name would imply. Most of it happened in the 80's in the US and Germany, but there were still good bands doing it in other areas and times. If you would like a taste, sample the early US scene with the 80's works from Riot, Jag Panzer, Helstar, Metal Church, Savatage, Liege Lord, Crimson Glory, Omen, Sanctuary, Vicious Rumors, etc..., and see if maybe it changes your mind. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
I have mainly heard Sonata Arctica, Blind Guardian, Edguy, Iced Earth, etc. I am not into super fast music combined with the god awful high pitched singing. gguuhhhh shoot meh NOW! haha
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