Black Metal

[RelentlessOblivion]

certainly it would appear that way in relation to the Christian "God" Iceni though we both know that religious sub-text doesn't detract from good music (for example I find the music of Harmony to be highly enjoyable even though I am an Atheist) the use of Satanic imagery and idealogy seems far more accepted however.

[Iceni]

certainly it would appear that way in relation to the Christian "God" Iceni though we both know that religious sub-text doesn't detract from good music (for example I find the music of Harmony to be highly enjoyable even though I am an Atheist) the use of Satanic imagery and idealogy seems far more accepted however.

I agree. I think that's the problem a lot of people have. Having grown up in countries where Christianity is just present enough to be an annoying orthodoxy but not so pervasive as to actually have some credible intellectual backing by the local community so that they might understand it, I think a lot of the people who make the accusations I mentioned tend to think of religion purely in terms of their underdeveloped understanding of Christianity. As a result, they apply a broadly anti-religious sentiment to metal, which aside from creating another pointless criterion for elitism also misses the point. Rudra, for example, have a handful of Hindusim-based anti-monotheist polemics in their work, a perspective that would probably have been excluded based on this criterion. I wondered that about Melechesh too - whether they were a Jewish black metal band, because I though perhaps 'true' black metal is only anti-Christian and not necessarily anti-religious.

[BlutAusNerd]

I agree. I think that's the problem a lot of people have. Having grown up in countries where Christianity is just present enough to be an annoying orthodoxy but not so pervasive as to actually have some credible intellectual backing by the local community so that they might understand it, I think a lot of the people who make the accusations I mentioned tend to think of religion purely in terms of their underdeveloped understanding of Christianity. As a result, they apply a broadly anti-religious sentiment to metal, which aside from creating another pointless criterion for elitism also misses the point. Rudra, for example, have a handful of Hindusim-based anti-monotheist polemics in their work, a perspective that would probably have been excluded based on this criterion. I wondered that about Melechesh too - whether they were a Jewish black metal band, because I though perhaps 'true' black metal is only anti-Christian and not necessarily anti-religious.

Supposedly Melechesh relocated to The Netherlands due to religious persecution in Israel, so it's obvious that they did plenty to piss off the Jews in that country. Based on the imagery they use and their song titles, they seem aligned with a sort of gnostic eastern mysticism, though in more of a left hand path sort of way than gnostic Christianity. It could just have to do with their already middle eastern themed lyrics, so I'm not sure where exactly they stand themselves, but their exile from Israel seems to indicate that their conviction goes farther than imagery.

[Iceni]

Supposedly Melechesh relocated to The Netherlands due to religious persecution in Israel' date=' so it's obvious that they did plenty to piss off the Jews in that country. Based on the imagery they use and their song titles, they seem aligned with a sort of gnostic eastern mysticism, though in more of a left hand path sort of way than gnostic Christianity. It could just have to do with their already middle eastern themed lyrics, so I'm not sure where exactly they stand themselves, but their exile from Israel seems to indicate that their conviction goes farther than imagery.[/quote'] They probably have a lot of solidarity with Behemoth, they get a lot of crap in Poland about 'affronts to public morality'. Again I'm reminded of the Akercocke interview: Fuzzhead Twit #1: I think what we really need to show is that Ireland doesn't want this awful stuff. Fuzzhead Twit #2: Why are you here? Akercocke: Well, we're here because we've been invited. From what I can tell Melechesh are more in the vein of Sumerian paganism, albeit perhaps in a Gnostic vein. I'm basing this mainly off of Sphynx and Emissaries, so I could be wrong.

[BlutAusNerd]

They probably have a lot of solidarity with Behemoth, they get a lot of crap in Poland about 'affronts to public morality'. Again I'm reminded of the Akercocke interview: Fuzzhead Twit #1: I think what we really need to show is that Ireland doesn't want this awful stuff. Fuzzhead Twit #2: Why are you here? Akercocke: Well, we're here because we've been invited. From what I can tell Melechesh are more in the vein of Sumerian paganism, albeit perhaps in a Gnostic vein. I'm basing this mainly off of Sphynx and Emissaries, so I could be wrong.

Gnosticism does have parallels with Sumerian mythology, but is more derived from ancient eastern mysticism (much of which derives from pre-monotheistic Judaism), Hinduism, and early Judeo-Christianity. However, gnostic ideals can be applied to many religions, even satanism. Chaos Gnosticism is a religious philosophy upheld by a bunch of Swedish black metal musicians, most notably guys like Erik Danielsson and Jon Nodtveidt, but Shamaatae from Arckanum has a slightly different ideology that combines satanic gnosis with parallels to Scandinavian paganism. The whole subject is pretty interesting to me, so you would think that I would read the lyrics...

[Scullicon]

Gnosticism is more or less applicable on every type of religion since its main purpose is just Gnosis, Knowledge. I dont know much about Melechesh thou. Sounds interesting. And for the fact of Chaos Gnosticism, thats a subject ive been studying as much i had time the last few years. I own all Shamaatae's written works, and a few of the ones from MLO/TOTBL.

[RelentlessOblivion]

it is a very interesting line of discussion. Generally when one thinks of black metal they think of satanic or anti-theological lyrics but bands like Melechesh who incorporate gnostic elements without drawing from Satanism are almost as prevalent in the scene hence BM is defined more by a specific sound as opposed to the lyrical content

[slayer85]

I personally think that black metal is based on rebelling against religion, and any forms of organized establishment. I also see it as a genre for those with misanthropic views on mankind.

[deathstorm]

hey slayer agree on that and i aslo think some black metal is based on witchcraft anyone agreed

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Re: your opinions on black metal music/scene

OK. Try out 'Sphynx' by Melechesh. The lyrical themes are about Sumerian paganism, and the riffs and drums will probably be to your liking. I'm just checking them out myself. aI3l8j6vvec

Well, I'll be honest, that was Ok but, I am starting to like Power Metal more than Thrash now, just because I love Melodic Metal, I also love Cathedral (Stoner Metal?) and I always have and always will love Trad Heavy Metal, but as Murph said I love Bolt Thrower and Death, however I am still open to suggestions and still enjoy Thrash.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Black Metal is less likely to be suited to you Dave however melodic death metal may appeal to you, suggestions there are for another thread however

[RelentlessOblivion]

yes Deathstorm there is a great deal of BM dealing with Witchcraft and the Occult in general BM dwells on the destructive elements of these practices.

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: your opinions on black metal music/scene

I personally think that black metal is based on rebelling against religion' date=' and any forms of organized establishment. I also see it as a genre for those with misanthropic views on mankind.[/quote'] This is true, but people of various beliefs can also rebel against their religions. I've said many times before, religion and spirituality are two different things. Black metal does embody many beliefs, but a nihilistic view of there not being a universal truth can reinforce this. Misanthropy is just a broader sort of hatred, which I believe is pretty essential to black metal. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[RelentlessOblivion]

I'm full of hate, I have come to the conclusion I would make a fine black metal musician...or a Sith Lord

[slayer85]

As many of you know. Im into black metal influenced thrash metal and wanted to share one of my favorite songs by one of my favorite bands: Aura Noir "black thrash attack:

[RelentlessOblivion]

love that album, it's truly excellent

[slayer85]

love that album' date=' it's truly excellent[/quote'] Yes! Its a great album from start to finish! Their latest album is really good. Love how they do the riffs! You like any black/thrash bands Relentless?

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: your opinions on black metal music/scene Black Thrash Attack is one of my favorite albums, great stuff. I have all of their albums but their latest, and though they're all good, the debut will likely always be my favorite. I just finished listening to Dødheimsgard's Monumental Possession, Apollyon from Aura Noir does guitar and some vocals on the album, and it's fairly similar to Aura Noir's style. You should give it a listen. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[RelentlessOblivion]

my black/thrash collection is fairly limited at present (a few years back I sold off all my black and death metal albums so I'm in the process of rebuilding and expanding my knowledge of both genres) presently my black/thrash collection consists of Absu's "Tara" and "Absu", Aura Noir's "Black Thrash Attack" and Necrodeath's "Mater Of All Evil"

[Jonnymetal]

I love the classic Norwegian bands for being so original and amazing at doing it. Don't really listen to much black metal besides the classics: Venom, Emperor, Immortal, Bathory, Celtic Frost, Mayhem, Darkthrone, Dark Funeral, Enslaved, Satyricon, Mercyful Fate/King Diamond, Carpathian Forest

[RelentlessOblivion]

I've never really understood why Mercyful Fate are considered Black Metal to be perfectly honest, I quite like Black Metal, rebuilding my collection but at present it consists of: Absu, Agathodaimon, Arcturus, Aura Noir, Bathory, Cradle Of Filth, Darkthrone, Deathspell Omega, Dissection, Hellhammer, Immortal, Master's Hammer, Mayhem, Melechesh, Moonspell, Morbid, Necrodeath, Necromantia, nMe, Ulver and Venom

[slayer85]

I love the classic Norwegian bands for being so original and amazing at doing it. Don't really listen to much black metal besides the classics: Venom' date=' Emperor, Immortal, Bathory, Celtic Frost, Mayhem, Darkthrone, Dark Funeral, Enslaved, Satyricon, Mercyful Fate/King Diamond, Carpathian Forest[/quote'] When it comes to black metal. All I listen to are the classic bands also. Black metal has far too many copycats! Also, I dont see how King Diamond could possibly be considered black metal since his music sounds nothing like black metal! I understand the satan lyrics he conveys and the face paint, but I wouldnt consider it black metal.

[RelentlessOblivion]

that's exactly my point Mercyful Fate and King Diamond are not black metal, they're good but at best they were the prototype for corpse paint and satanic lyrics

[BlutAusNerd]

I love the classic Norwegian bands for being so original and amazing at doing it. Don't really listen to much black metal besides the classics: Venom' date=' Emperor, Immortal, Bathory, Celtic Frost, Mayhem, Darkthrone, Dark Funeral, Enslaved, Satyricon, Mercyful Fate/King Diamond, Carpathian Forest[/quote'] While I do agree with you about the Norwegian second wave of black metal being a largely original movement, it was but one of the many second wave black metal movements happening around that time, all of which were also original and great. I love Norwegian black metal too, but I get a bit annoyed that it seems to get all the credit, and people forget about awesome black metal coming from other places.

[BlutAusNerd]

that's exactly my point Mercyful Fate and King Diamond are not black metal' date=' they're good but at best they were the prototype for corpse paint and satanic lyrics[/quote'] King Diamond isn't black metal, but Mercyful Fate was. I think many people write Mercyful Fate off as "just another heavy metal band" because, like Venom, black metal has evolved greatly since their time to where it doesn't sound as much like the creators. If all that you were told is that the second wave and modern black metal bands were the defining sound of black metal, I could see taking this stance with many old school bands, but it works the other way around. The original sound was THE black metal sound, but since the Norwegian second wave is the most popular form of black metal, which embodies the characteristics of Bathory than other first wave bands like Venom, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Sodom, Mercyful Fate, Tormentor, Sarcofago, etc... However, if you look to other scenes, you'll find more influence from other first wave bands to the second wave, showing the full progression of black metal that the Norwegian picture doesn't fully paint.