Anti Black Metal

[mcbeverage101]

Re: Anti Black Metal Personally, I'm not much for "+1" posts. However, I'd just like to say that I completely agree with Idiot Slayer's post.

[Iceni]

Re: Anti Black Metal

I think for one to discuss demon worship first and foremost requires an acknowledgement of God being real, and most black metal uses demonic imagery not to say "woah man, we worship satan dude" but to act in opposition for Christian beliefs. Bear in mind that Christianity swept through many cultures, destroying old traditions and faiths by killing those that refused to convert. We could just as easily call Christianity as dangerous as 'demon worship' in this case. So what of power metal? Is it fair to accept stories of people slaying Orcs and mighty warriors? Isn't that going too far into the realm of myth and non-biblical truth? Some would say so. In fact, if you're a Christian who's Theological training has taught him about demon's you should probably avoid power metal for the same reason. It talks of mythical beasts magic and such. Isn't it all just stories and metaphors? Admittedly, black metal has been more synonymous with church burnings and murders, but Gary Glitter molested children, yet we don't see a backlash against glam rock do we? Whilst I am for freedom of speech, arguments about demons and 'theology' don't really do much for me when they appear to have no sound basis. Does your theology consist of racist hicks teaching you about Jesus as a loving white hippy, or is he a stinking radical outcast with a chip on his shoulder? I know which is more historically and theologically sound. Shame most Christians don't.

What d'you mean by a stinking radical outcast with a chip on his shoulder? Do you mean to say he was a smelly, foul type one wouldn't want to meet, or that he wasn't very well regarded by most of the Jewish clergy and the dislike was mutual? I don't really understand your statement about which view is more historically AND theologically accurate. The latter is Biblically consistent. And I for one I haven't got the least problem with Christ being Hebrew/Arabic. As for magic, I've been sifting through why people oppose Harry Potter so much for the same reason...and I sure don't see a theological basis for the backlash. And so I listen to power metal... I find the Bible is a lot smarter than most people, even Christians, believe it it to be. I am well and truly fed up with all of the Christians telling me I need to be a 'fool for Christ', so that I must by extension be illogical, myopic, belligerent and anal-retentive. As for this whole anti-black metal thing, I believe the poster needs to realize that this is the real world. If he believes in free speech, then Os Guiness and Gaahl are equally within rights to say what they like. If, however, he does NOT want totally free speech, he should definitely expect some laws legislating against overt Christian symbolism on public property, protests near abortion clinics, teaching Creationism, etc. Lack of free speech hurts everyone. I don't like black metal but it doesn't matter - if I try to legislate against it then not only will Dimmu Borgir suffer, but so will Slechtvalk.

[ReturntoCarthage]

Re: Anti Black Metal I will start off by saying that from the genres foundations from Mercyful fate to Bathory, Celtic Frost, and the other luminaries of the first wave, to the church burning bands of Norway and other parts of the world the foundations of the genre have always been antireligious-and especially antichristian. Lyrically, it makes about as much sense as a snowball on the sun, to assume that Christianity has any place in black metal, as the entire foundation, scene, and albums have antithetical to the turn the other cheek slave morality of Christianity. Christ "unblack" hacks like Crimson Moonlight and Antestor can claim to be "Black metal" until they're blue in the face, but this does not change the history of the music, and the scene at large will always scorn these losers for the rightful outcasts they are. As for the theological bullshit of Holy babble, one need not turn but to the Old testament, to see that God is nothing more than a jealous figment of our imaginations used to murder people if they don't follow his tyrannical will.

[Iceni]

Re: Anti Black Metal

I will start off by saying that from the genres foundations from Mercyful fate to Bathory' date=' Celtic Frost, and the other luminaries of the first wave, to the church burning bands of Norway and other parts of the world the foundations of the genre have always been antireligious-and especially antichristian. Lyrically, it makes about as much sense as a snowball on the sun, to assume that Christianity has any place in black metal, as the entire foundation, scene, and albums have antithetical to the turn the other cheek slave morality of Christianity. Christ "unblack" hacks like Crimson Moonlight and Antestor can claim to be "Black metal" until they're blue in the face, but this does not change the history of the music, and the scene at large will always scorn these losers for the rightful outcasts they are. As for the theological bullshit of Holy babble, one need not turn but to the Old testament, to see that God is nothing more than a jealous figment of our imaginations used to murder people if they don't follow his tyrannical will.[/quote'] Straw man, fallacy of ignorance, fallacy of chronology and a fallacy of a false dilemma. I might even argue there's appeal to ridicule in your argument as well. "Holy babble"... For goodness sake, even Valfar, who is as far as I can tell the most hardcore black metal fan here (he's got a picture of a zombie wearing a miter emblazoned with an inverted cross as his avatar, and he's showed me some very strongly anti-clerical metal) has been willing to say: "no problem, but yeah exactly what you said: "the mood should suit the lyrics, they should deal with dark themes in Christianity if they wish to have a dark sound"........that really sums it up " He's also said: "Well I will admit Iceni, that "Far Beyond" arent half bad some great melodies and song structure, also Slechtvalk actually sound pretty good!" He is also an atheist of some type or another: "if truth be told I dont even believe in satan, or any fairy tale beast," So...if a black metal fan who is an atheist is willing to admit that some unblack metal bands have talent, why won't you? I don't go around saying that I think that the atheists have it all wrong. I don't think they're right, but if so, I'm not going to bash them with invective like you have. I respect apocalypse922 and others who don't think what I think, and I want to be on good terms with them. I like them. They're good metal fans. They were friendly and respectful even though I let them know right off the bat that I was a Presbyterian Christian. They love the music that they and I listen to, and some of them are dedicated musicians. If I refuse to talk with them and stigmatize them because I think they're mistaken, I'm not going to have too many friends and I lose out on good company. Even my fellow Christians on the forum won't appreciate my lack of tact and amicability. I think I have something to learn from these atheists. Their unflinching, stoic acceptance of what they understand to be the truth, their tireless adherence to scientific integrity and respect for me as a Christian is admirable to me...as it should be to anyone.

[Valfar]

Re: Anti Black Metal

Well Ill just want to say I agree with alot of what "ReturntoCarthage" has said when it comes to the early fountations of Black metal, but at the end of the day, I listen to Blackmetal because I love extreme music and anything that is against organized religion or society (but really dont want to get into that debate again as its never ending). But I do acknowledge that the bands you showed me had some great sounds but I would still not listen to them as it still doesnt feel right as lyrics in my opinion should reflect the sounds and atmosphere(everyone has a preferance). In regards to my Avatar, the image is a picture I took at a "Ghost" concert, an amazing new band I would recommend you check out (you might actually like them), these are far from black metal but are a satanic band! flcHCTbdLSM _coniKMUfAI pQHeRlFAAGs

[Iceni]

Re: Anti Black Metal Fair enough, I'll be sure to listen to them later. What I was trying to say was that you were willing to admit these bands had talent, whereas ReturntoCarthage called them 'hacks', 'losers' and 'rightful outcasts'. I did not misquote you in any way either. I won't deny the roots of black metal are anti-Christian - I can't anyway. But from a purely logical standpoint, to say that since black metal has always been anti-Christian, and therefore must stay that way, is a textbook case of a fallacy of chronology. The linchpin here is that you said it's your opinion that the lyrics don't really suit the music. This argument I can understand. What you're not doing is calling these people 'hacks' or 'losers', because you clearly think they do have at least something to offer, as you didn't just comprehensively dismiss it all without even listening to it. You're also willing to say that it's your preference as well, whereas ReturntoCarthage just dismissed the whole genre. I also didn't care for his vitriol. You said you liked anti-Christian and anti-social music, yet you've never tried to tell me that I was a moron and a sheep. In addition, you've been willing to carry on a discussion about different black metal which I've enjoyed, and I think has been perfectly civil. As a matter of taste, of atmosphere, yes, this will be an ongoing argument and I won't bother arguing it. If it seems incongruous to you, that's fine - I won't try to change that.

[Valfar]

Re: Anti Black Metal

Fair enough, I'll be sure to listen to them later. What I was trying to say was that you were willing to admit these bands had talent, whereas ReturntoCarthage called them 'hacks', 'losers' and 'rightful outcasts'. I did not misquote you in any way either. I won't deny the roots of black metal are anti-Christian - I can't anyway. But from a purely logical standpoint, to say that since black metal has always been anti-Christian, and therefore must stay that way, is a textbook case of a fallacy of chronology. The linchpin here is that you said it's your opinion that the lyrics don't really suit the music. This argument I can understand. What you're not doing is calling these people 'hacks' or 'losers', because you clearly think they do have at least something to offer, as you didn't just comprehensively dismiss it all without even listening to it. You're also willing to say that it's your preference as well, whereas ReturntoCarthage just dismissed the whole genre. I also didn't care for his vitriol. You said you liked anti-Christian and anti-social music, yet you've never tried to tell me that I was a moron and a sheep. In addition, you've been willing to carry on a discussion about different black metal which I've enjoyed, and I think has been perfectly civil. As a matter of taste, of atmosphere, yes, this will be an ongoing argument and I won't bother arguing it. If it seems incongruous to you, that's fine - I won't try to change that.

no problem i understand Iceni what you are saying You said you liked anti-Christian and anti-social music, yet you've never tried to tell me that I was a moron and a sheep. In addition, you've been willing to carry on a discussion about different black metal which I've enjoyed, and I think has been perfectly civil. very true, i guess its because i see music as art, and art is expression, so regardless what I like or what my beliefs are in music there will always be other fans of metal with different ideas, i will never put down any other metal genres (apart from nu -metal lol). diversity is what makes metal so interesting and pure. also you are definitely not a moron or a sheep, just another metal head with different beliefs than me! an example of diversity I remember when Skyclad first came out alot of metal fans didnt get it and laughed about mixing Folk and metal, now its huge!! in other words its all about following your own trend and not what everyone else thinks is a crap genre!!

[Iceni]

Re: Anti Black Metal Well, I know we're at least 25% similar because my grandmother was off the boat Irish... My mom got me an awesome Ireland t-shirt, it's got an elaborate knotwork design on the front. But as for diversity in metal...heck yes. People love stereotyping this genre to pieces, most people here in the USA only know about traditional metal and metalcore, and think those two encompass all of metal. I've actually been on long car rides when I wanted to put my music on; people on those trips thought metal was metalcore, so when I ask to put on Theocracy and I say it's metal...they say I can't play it, because they think I'm going to put on August Burns Red or Haste the Day. Interestingly, folk metal is a great display of diversity since every region has its own themes, instruments, melodies, etc. Speaking of which, check out Shangren, you might like them. RCmjw-PtQj8 ROf35CVBCWU And I can play the intro/opening melody to this one on guitar, too.

[ReturntoCarthage]

Re: Anti Black Metal I can't argue theology on a forum its something I would do more effectively in the flesh, but for the most part, you babble on about how as atheist's we're "ignorant" to scientific truth, when we aren't making the assumption that there is nothing higher than our own existence. To speak from ignorance about something seems squarely on your shoulders, as your own directive is merely a book and a complete lack of empirical evidence for the "Divine". You can throw around the entirety of the philosophical lexicon, but to play the victim when you are knowingly going into a black metal thread, arguing we have it all "wrong' only to sport the same pedantic notions of intellectual nebulousness that always follows a debate about the existence of god is very tiring indeed. Obviously, you don't know anything about the scene, as there are many bands that don't sing about theological subject matter at all. Secondly, sure there are some decent Christian pseudo metal bands I guess, I don't listen to them but I'm sure their out there.

[Iceni]

Re: Anti Black Metal

I can't argue theology on a forum its something I would do more effectively in the flesh' date=' but for the most part, you babble on about how as atheist's we're "ignorant" to scientific truth, when we aren't making the assumption that there is nothing higher than our own existence. To speak from ignorance about something seems squarely on your shoulders, as your own directive is merely a book and a complete lack of empirical evidence for the "Divine". You can throw around the entirety of the philosophical lexicon, but to play the victim when you are knowingly going into a black metal thread, arguing we have it all "wrong' only to sport the same pedantic notions of intellectual nebulousness that always follows a debate about the existence of god is very tiring indeed. Obviously, you don't know anything about the scene, as there are many bands that don't sing about theological subject matter at all. Secondly, sure there are some decent Christian pseudo metal bands I guess, I don't listen to them but I'm sure their out there.[/quote'] You are making multiple assumptions about me which simply aren't true. "for the most part you babble on about how as atheists we're ignorant to scientific truth when we aren't making the assumption that there is nothing higher than our own existence." That's definitely not true. I spent most of my time trying to say that I respect these people even though they disagree with me. In the meantime, I have the Latin script at the bottom of my signature, Veritas Summum Est (the truth is the highest). That is intended to communicate the idea that I am perfectly willing to change my outlook should the facts dictate. Indeed, I already have. I used to be a new-earth creationist but I've been confronted with facts that have forced me to look at the Bible through different eyes. Facts, by the way, which come from a 'book' written by Karl Giberson and Francis Collins, both of whom are very respected scientists. The latter is head of the Human Genome Project and the director of the National Institutes of Health...and a Christian. 'To speak from ignorance about something seems squarely on your shoulders, as your own directive is merely a book and a complete lack of empirical evidence for the "Divine".' Well, it's no use responding to this in the length I'd like to. Theology's not the topic of the thread...suffice to say that I do try to confront the facts. As for a lack of empirical evidence for the divine, I beg to differ. The instructions for the manufacture of genetic material are only propagated by life itself. In addition, some of these nucleotide bases don't even occur naturally so if you want to argue time and random chance that route won't work. In the meantime, the entire well-developed theory of evolution has nothing to say about the actual origin of life. 'You can throw around the entirety of the philosophical lexicon, but to play the victim when you are knowingly going into a black metal thread, arguing we have it all "wrong' only to sport the same pedantic notions of intellectual nebulousness that always follows a debate about the existence of god is very tiring indeed.' Throw around the entirety of the philosophical lexicon? Those are fallacies present in your reasoning, that's why I mentioned them. Once again, I am only saying I think you have it all wrong. I find it odd that you dislike the 'pedantic notions of intellectual nebulousness' if you're trying to argue as a scientist, because scientists understand their theories could be wrong. They are dedicated to the evidence presented to them even if it presents a complete paradigm shift. For example, scientists used to believe in the immutability of species, so when Darwin's evidence showed that was obviously wrong they knew their views required some examination. Now even the most staunchly young-earth Creationist textbook admits this phenomena is commonplace. As for playing the victim, I think it only natural to respond in such a manner when all through the forum, ardent atheists have never attacked me for my belief. Valfar recently responded to one of my posts by saying he didn't think I was a moron or a sheep. Your behavior toward me has been very different. 'Obviously, you don't know anything about the scene, as there are many bands that don't sing about theological subject matter at all.' That is another assumption you've made about me which is totally false. I know that there are black metal bands which don't praise Satan or discuss theology at all. In the meantime, I said the roots are anti-Christian, and I think many here on the forum would agree with me. Since then the scene has developed. 'Secondly, sure there are some decent Christian pseudo metal bands I guess, I don't listen to them but I'm sure their out there' Pseudo-metal bands? Yes, and there are also some good Christian real metal bands as well. (Just to set the record straight, I don't agree with the guy who posted this topic, as you can see in my earlier posts. I've heard some black metal that I've liked, such as Melechesh, Cruachan, Behemoth and Dimmu Borgir.)

[Iceni]

Re: Anti Black Metal Valfar, I did listen to Ghost...honestly, I didn't know whether to laugh, their music just sounds so passive, chill and groovy that it's hard to believe they're Satanic. You should listen to Gorod's 'Hidden Genocide' - it's a great car stereo song, because no one around here listens to music that heavy and that funky. Anyhow, Ritual was entertaining: I loved the monastic-style robes that the bassist and guitar players were wearing. The riffs were also substantial and jazz-based, which I liked. You might like this, it's unorthodox with some good piano in it and still manages to convey a dark sound. z6ePvrgSu1Y I had actually always wanted a kind of 'monk metal', if you will. Something based on hymns or Byzantine-type singing, along with guitars based somewhat around central pipe organ melodies, where all of the members wore robes like that. It may well be something original to bring to the scene, especially with songs structured like hymns with the same long, basic theme repeated over a couple of verses, with added elements thrown in. You could very easily take in classical elements if you're composing long melodies, so that's an added bonus. I think it would reach back to older church history and provide something original to the metal scene. So I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have liked Ghost's lyrics...but the music still had merit, hence I'm not completely against it.

[Valfar]

Re: Anti Black Metal hahahaha have to say I personally love ghost since I heard their demo last year, i reckon they will actually become quite popular, saw an interview with james hetfield sporting a Ghost T-shirt and saying that is great to hear a fresh sound in metal and that they were the best thing he has heard in years. On wearing the t-shirt of the mysterious Swedish buzz band GHOST during the interview: Hetfield: "I'm in their fan club. [Laughs] I had no idea what they looked like until I saw the video. I heard the music first and I thought it was very great — very unique, very melodic and a breath of fresh air for metal. It reminded me a bit of '70s kind of rock that I liked as well. So yeah, I love the band." But they are getting some negative reviews saying they are using radio friendly music to promote Satanism. If the truth be told they are all from a very popular Doom band from sweden and this is a side project (hence hiding their identity) They even did a great cover of "here comes the sun" (im sure youll laugh at this one) but i really enjoy the way they make the song their own! r8oFlXnnwKI To Be honest really didnt like Beyond Twilght but have to say Shangren was very interesting, have never heard that type of sound mixed with metal in that way.

[Iceni]

Re: Anti Black Metal Heh. 'Here Comes the Sun' is usually one of those songs which makes me grind my teeth. But I actually liked this one, it seemed like Pink Floyd covering the song. It sounded eerie and unnervingly clam, so it definitely does change the atmosphere. As for them getting criticized for promoting Satanism through radio-friendly music...Who's doing that? Pop reviewers or staunch Satanists? That seems illogical on both fronts fronts. Any method by which the essence of your views may be expressed without diluting them, and which happens to open people's minds to your idea, ought to be embraced. Therefore it doesn't seem to make sense that Satanists would criticize it. Pop reviewers and the like have a lot of gumption to talk out of both sides of their mouths like that. As far as I can tell, this band isn't mincing any words about Satanism, so they are being pretty direct. But pop music is insidious. It presents rather banal ideas because its merit is based solely on groove. Because people are too lazy to evaluate the lyrics, they just blandly accept them as tenets which you tack on to the dance beat as necessary elements of being stylish. As a result I think a lot of girls just really don't mind being objectified anymore, because that's the hip thing to do. In the meantime, the boys don't mind being thought of as sex-starved apes because that's also the cool thing to believe. And that's what I like about metal. Metal has dignity and honesty. You also don't find metal bands promoting the same old thing over and over (unless maybe you listen to a lot of power metal...I do). Because the bands understand they will be judged on a variety of musical and lyrical criteria by the metal world, one gets variety assimilated to talent and none of them feel the need to stick to a set gamut of lyrical themes. The existence of Satanic black metal is simply a by-product of capitalism and democracy. because that's what these bands wanted to promote. If the thread-starter doesn't want to hear it he doesn't have to. I also suspect that most of the people who listen to to black metal are already anti-clerical or they just listen to the music and enjoy it for its melody alone, hence it's not influencing people. If it doesn't have a negative social or spiritual influence, it makes no sense for him to oppose it from his theological standpoint.

[AkselJ]

Re: Anti Black Metal

They even did a great cover of "here comes the sun" (im sure youll laugh at this one) but i really enjoy the way they make the song their own! r8oFlXnnwKI

... That was amazing.

[Valfar]

Re: Anti Black Metal yeah great band really looking forward to their follow up album!!

[Lady_Maggot]

Re: Anti Black Metal Black metal isn't inherently evil. Nothing is, until we assign that meaning to it specifically. Black metal's roots are indeed Anti-Christian. But that's only a piece of it for some ( not all ) bands. For many black metal bands, it's about a reclamation of what Semitic/Western European culture (read: Semitic religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam. But specifically Christianity in this case.) has tried to systematically do away with. This is the nature of war: the conquerors try to destroy what they deem as inferior. There are entire peoples/cultures in the world who have been wiped out or are on the brink of such a fate because of these specific consequences of War. In Scandinavia, there is/was a major backlash against Christianity because it tried as best it could to destroy the old Norse traditions and faith practices. In a lot of Scandinavian metal, whether it be black or Viking or whatever, there is a constant theme of homage to the "Ancient Ones". Of going back to the "Old Ways". In many places, Christianity is seen as a foreign invader. And what do people do when they're invaded? They fight back in whatever way they can. For some Scandinavian youth, that means black metal. They want to reclaim the pagan culture they were denied because of history. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get back to one's roots, unless that means (in my view, and my view only) violence against others. The good we can take from the church burnings is that no one was hurt or killed, though it does indeed send a clear message to Scandinavian Christians. What hath Varg Vikernes wrought? Whether or not he really was involved in all of the church burnings, he's helped to cement black metal's image to outsiders who may not be so open minded or informed about issues of faith, war and the long term impact it has on a nation. Music is a reflection of culture, whether it be a microcosm or a macrocosm. I think in this case, black metal reflects a microcosm. I don't really need to point out that Christianity (as well as nearly every other religion that exists or has existed) has had its fair share of villains since its inception. Ultimately, thinking black metal is "evil" is folly. You can absolutely be against it because that's within your rights, but that sword cuts both ways: the opposite opinion is equally as valid when made maturely and logically, even if you disagree with it. Remember kids: Just because someone says something you dislike, doesn't mean you get to censor it.

[Iceni]

Re: Anti Black Metal

Remember kids: Just because someone says something you dislike' date=' doesn't mean you get to censor it.[/quote'] Aye, the essence of free speech, and it applies to all people. Now, if only 'hate speech' legislation advocates could hammer that through their skulls.

[Gust]

Re: Anti Black Metal

I am completely against Black Metal I think everybody deserves the right to beleive what they will without people trying to destroy their beleifs. I also think that the music is far too dark and deamon worship is too far on the beleif scale.

So,actualy you're against Religion?

[Apoc]

Re: Anti Black Metal

So,actualy you're against Religion?

The dude is inactive. He has not been on the forum for about 3 months.

[Gust]

Re: Anti Black Metal

The dude is inactive. He has not been on the forum for about 3 months.

Killed by a Black Metal fan???

[MetalSifu666]

Re: Anti Black Metal Every genre has stuff I like and stuff I don't. There is some black metal I love, yet I think in general, I think I have found more black metal that I'm not a fan of than any other genre. Or at least, I've been unable to find a lot of memorable black metal. Emperor, Melechesh, Borkagnar, and especially Ne Obliviscaris are amazing. I'm also a big fan of Belphegor, Destroyer 666 and Angelcorpse. However, Mayhem, Dark Throne, Dark Funeral, etc. have never held my attention for more than two minutes. Sometimes it puts me right to sleep. I guess I'm more of a fan of black-influenced metal than black metal itself. And as for the thematic stuff, there is such a thing as progressive black metal. I've already mentioned Borkagnar and Ne Obliviscaris as two bands who are really there to make good music and not rely on satanism, corpse paint, and publicity stunts.

[metal101]

Re: Anti Black Metal Nowt wrong with black metal unless it's the right wing nazi variety - those dudes just weren't hugged enough when they were little - their inner child got twisted up. Like some dark and dirty imagery, just don't be a moron

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Re: Anti Black Metal well, i was born in a catholic family tbh im atheist, and i LOVE Venom

[toddmc]

Re: Anti Black Metal

well' date=' i was born in a catholic family tbh im atheist, and i LOVE Venom[/quote'] Something we have in common (although I'm more agnostic). 223075056_a45d7a57c8.jpg[/attachment:1fwabm81]

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

Anti Black Metal Hahahaha! Thing is tom araya is catholic aswell!