Jump to content

Annihilator - Alice In Hell (1989)


BlackSmith

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, AlSymerz said:

I always thought the idea of writing and releasing a record was to appeal to the widest audience possible. Sell the most albums. Keep the old fans happy, try and get some new fans along the way. Seems a bit pointless not to aim high enough to sell more albums.

Not really and certainly not in metal.

I'm sure you'd remember from the earliest days of the Aussie scene that bands like Sadistik Exekution and Slaughterlord weren't interested in mass appeal or sales.   Mortal Sin probably wasn't either when they started.

And when you read interviews with older bands, many never aspired to fame.  They viewed themselves as

Hardcore punk scene is the same.  In fact many of them were violently opposed to fame and commercial success.

Both extreme metal (starting with thrash) and hardcore communities viewed selling tons of records as selling out.

 

If sales were only goal, metal and punk would not have progressed much past the Saints, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple in terms of heaviness!    Every band would be something sugary, sweet and accessible.

 

And all my mates that are in bands that released albums never wanted to sell them en masse.  They were happy putting it out, selling them at gigs and then working a day job or collecting the dole.   Only know of a couple of bands locally that tried to make it as professionals but even then they weren't changing their sound to sell music.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, AlSymerz said:

I always thought the idea of writing and releasing a record was to appeal to the widest audience possible. Sell the most albums. Keep the old fans happy, try and get some new fans along the way. Seems a bit pointless not to aim high enough to sell more albums.

There’s a difference between, for arguments sake, Mortal Sin putting out Mayhemic Destruction because they enjoyed playing it and thought thrash fans might like it, and let’s say disturbed putting out for all intents and purposes radio Rock purely to try and reach the broadest possible audience. I think that is the distinguishing feature here: is the band in question doing it solely for the money for the love of music with profit being a secondary concern? Let’s face it once a band reaches a certain point the quality of their newer output isn’t going to stop them from selling vast quantities of albums.  See Iron Maiden who essentially released the same album for the last 20 years or so

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I beg to differ, all those bands wanted to be signed, all those bands wanted record deals so they could tour and play their music. None of them wanted to remain in the garage playing to a dozen friends. There wasn't a gig we set up for any metal band where they weren't interested in the numbers through the door, the bar takings and how much merch they sold. Sure they loved to say they weren't interested in mass appeal because metal never really had it, but they certainly thought about it.

I'm not suggesting sales were the only goal, some bands aspired to playing the Tote, some the Espy, some to break out and do a Euro tour. Some bands just wanted to record an album they couldn't afford to pay for. But wanting to be successful was still a driving part of what they did and with success comes a certain amount of commercialism.

 

I can see commercialism in cases like  Metallica writing more Top 40 appreciated music after the Black Album, but I don't really see it in an album like AIH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, AlSymerz said:

I beg to differ, all those bands wanted to be signed, all those bands wanted record deals so they could tour and play their music. None of them wanted to remain in the garage playing to a dozen friends. There wasn't a gig we set up for any metal band where they weren't interested in the numbers through the door, the bar takings and how much merch they sold. Sure they loved to say they weren't interested in mass appeal because metal never really had it, but they certainly thought about it.

Local scene was really not about money or selling or getting signed.  They released albums and EPs but most of them stayed in boxes and were dredged up for gigs.

Takings through the door was more about covering cost of hiring PA or giving some money to whatever mainland act was playing  to cover their air fares/ferry (cause most of these guys came and toured for nothing too - essentially a holiday!).

There was no sending copies albums or demos to labels or radio stations or trying to do mainland tours.

Only two local bands strove to greater glory - Mustang and The Styles.  Both relocated to Melbourne for their music (and sadly failed).  

Rest were all hobby acts despite releasing music.  They might have dreamed of success but it was never really serious.  Kind of like dreaming of winning the lotto.

 

EDIT: FWIW one of these guys did also play in covers and acoustic acts for extra cash. About the closest any of them got to musical success.  And he hated it too but the car rego won't pay for itself!

 

Quote

 

 ...success comes a certain amount of commercialism.

I can see commercialism in cases like  Metallica writing more Top 40 appreciated music after the Black Album, but I don't really see it in an album like AIH

 

I totally agree.

42 minutes ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

There’s a difference between, for arguments sake, Mortal Sin putting out Mayhemic Destruction because they enjoyed playing it and thought thrash fans might like it, and let’s say disturbed putting out for all intents and purposes radio Rock purely to try and reach the broadest possible audience. I think that is the distinguishing feature here: is the band in question doing it solely for the money for the love of music with profit being a secondary concern? Let’s face it once a band reaches a certain point the quality of their newer output isn’t going to stop them from selling vast quantities of albums.  See Iron Maiden who essentially released the same album for the last 20 years or so

Nail hit on the head amigo!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Commercial" as far as 80's thrash metal is concerned - to me - means too slick, too polished, too catchy, no edge, no fury, no balls. Neutered. Really has nothing to do with album sales, more to do with what I perceive as the record company sticking their big dumb nose into the creative process where it doesn't belong and watering shit down. I don't like shit that sounds watered down to me. I like my thrash right off the still at 120 proof, not watered down to 80 proof or worse, made into a fruity cocktail.

The idea that bands could have one foot in thrash metal and keep the other foot in a more commercial, more accessible style in hopes of appealing to consumers from both camps makes no sense to me. Beause now it's not gonna be thrashy enough for guys like me, and I would have thought maybe too thrashy for the mainstream hair band crowd or like whoever bands like the dreadful Skid Row were being marketed to. But 34 years later in hindsight it's quite clear that most people who generally like 80's thrash seem to really like that AiH album and rate it fairly highly. Who knew? I always thought it was rubbish so I guess that makes me full of shit. Maybe I should have just put it this way from the start: that Annihilator album really rubs me the wrong way. Don't care which way it rubs you.

We could go over Deadovic's list album by album and have a long in depth look at which albums from which 80's bands sound more or less commercial to us than others and stuff like that because I really do enjoy that kind of in depth analysis of all things metal. So much more fun for me than just posting pairs of albums in the WAYLT thread. That kind of debate honestly sounds like a good time to me. But clearly things like heaviness and dilution and commerciality are very subjective things and none of us would ever be able to agree on much of anything in a debate like that, so I should probably refrain from going that route. We all have our own ideas about which 80's albums we like and which ones we don't care for as much and we all know going in that no one is ever going to talk anyone into or out of anything. So I think I'll just leave it there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I doubt labels had much to do with Annihilator's sound on Alice In Hell.  This is Annihilator's first demo from 1986 - it's not that too dissimilar from what is on Alice In Hell except the vocals (which at times were almost death metal).

 Randy Rampage who did vocals on Alice In Hell was quite the score for Jeff Waters as he had been the vocalist for pioneering hardcore act, DOA.

 

Now Annihilator's second album Never, Neverland might have had label influence as it's more polished and Coburn Pharr far less abrasive than Randy but then Jeff Waters might have pushed that himself as he was very ambitious.

 

Quote

The idea that bands could have one foot in thrash metal and keep the other foot in a more commercial, more accessible style in hopes of appealing to consumers from both camps makes no sense to me. Beause now it's not gonna be thrashy enough for guys like me, and I would have thought maybe too thrashy for the mainstream hair band crowd or like whoever bands like the dreadful Skid Row were being marketed to

Actually the idea that bands could have one foot in thrash and one in less extreme heavy metal was there from the start.

Even on KEA there's plenty of toned down bits ala Motorhead.  Show No Mercy had a few Judas Priest and Iron Maiden moments.  Fistful of Metal was pretty much speed/heavy metal with a few thrashy bits.  Same with Killing Is My Business.

 

Most American thrash had a slightly more mainstream heavy metal edge from the start.  

And I am not talking mainstream as in Motley Crue or Skid Row, but more back to their original roots in bands like Diamond Head, Iron Maiden, Motorhead, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Accept etc.

And indeed even heavy metal bands like Manilla Road, Jag Panzer, Helstar, Armoured Saint etc weren't commercial or mainstream either.

The early European thrash was well and truly extreme and had a totally different mindset.  Even then Kreator were covering Raven by the mid -to late 1980s!

 

Your definition of mainstream is coloured by modernity.

Yep today Annihilator or indeed Kreator or Megadeth or whatever are commercial compared to some underground kvlt black metal band.

Back in 1980-89 - not so.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

There’s a difference between, for arguments sake, Mortal Sin putting out Mayhemic Destruction because they enjoyed playing it and thought thrash fans might like it, and let’s say disturbed putting out for all intents and purposes radio Rock purely to try and reach the broadest possible audience. I think that is the distinguishing feature here: is the band in question doing it solely for the money for the love of music with profit being a secondary concern? Let’s face it once a band reaches a certain point the quality of their newer output isn’t going to stop them from selling vast quantities of albums.  See Iron Maiden who essentially released the same album for the last 20 years or so

I think it's a given that any 80's band with a recording contract wanted or I should say needed to at least sell enough albums that the record company would agree to keep paying for them to make more albums. Profit is always a concern because bands that couldn't sell dick got unceremoniously dropped. And obviously every artist likes to get feedback that people somewhere appreciate their art. But there can be many paths to album sales. There will always be the Disturbeds and Nicklebacks of the world pushing their watered down products at us, but still there were some 80's thrash bands who managed to do alright for themselves sales-wise while still keeping things pretty heavy and vicious. Case in point: Reign in Blood. 

But my thing is I don't really care what a band's motivation might be, their music either sounds good to me or it doesn't. I would never hold it against a band just because they endeavored to make a decent living, because don't we all? I've heard so many stories of bands that were selling albums and selling concert tickets for several years, and they figured they must've been in the black, but yet the dudes could barely even clear enough to pay their fucking rents. And that's bullshit.

I do like a lot of lo-fi filthy kvlt shit but I also like a fair amount of more accessible commercialized shit too. Admittedly not as much of that kind of super commercial stuff anymore these days as far as new releases go, but back in the 80's and 90's I certainly did listen to plenty of major label commercial sounding shit. And I judged each band/album on a case by case basis, not just by how commercial it was, but just by if I liked it or not. I've always been drawn generally speaking to heavier music, but I've surprised myself many times over the years with random more commercial shit that just appealed to me for some reason. I've rejected tons of shit for being "too commercial" while embracing other things that are twice or thrice as commercial. I've honestly given up years ago trying to understand why I do or don't like certain stuff, I just go with whatever makes me feel good and at the end of the day nothing else really matters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

I doubt labels had much to do with Annihilator's sound on Alice In Hell.  This is Annihilator's first demo from 1986 - it's not that too dissimilar from what is on Alice In Hell except the vocals (which at times were almost death metal).

 Randy Rampage who did vocals on Alice In Hell was quite the score for Jeff Waters as he had been the vocalist for pioneering hardcore act, DOA.

 

Now Annihilator's second album Never, Neverland might have had label influence as it's more polished but then Jeff Waters might have pushed that himself as he was very ambitious.

 

Probably my own projection as much as anything. I suppose I can often have trouble truly believing that certain bands could actually like some of the crappy music they make when I can't stand it. But I guess that's pretty silly, it's much more likely that most of these bands do actually really like the music they create, even when to me it's really lame and overly polished and lacking anything resembling balls. 

Annihilator demo is light years better than Alice. To me obviously. Doesn't even sound like the same band at times even though I clearly recognize some of the tunes. The vocal delivery was definitely a huge part of my distaste for Alice. Thanks for sharing, it was cool to hear this. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

I think it's fair enough to not like it and I am not saying you should.

But accusing it of being commercialised is wrong given the context of the metal scene.

But isn't a quality as completely ambiguous as "commercial" and more importantly "too commercial" going to be totally subjective and vastly different to each listener? What sounds too commercial to me might not to you and visa versa. We all know people hear shit differently so how can anyone ever be objectively wrong?

For instance I remember people ragged on Symphony of Destruction for being too commercial and accused MegaDave of selling out back in '92 but yet that's one of my favorite Megadiscs. I'd rank it #2 behind Peace Sells and sometimes #3 behind SFSGSW. So to me something can be commercial without crossing the line into too commercial territory. 

Alice sounds much more hair bandy to me than any of those other commercial thrash albums you've mentioned. That's just how I hear it. I understand not all 80's thrash bands need to be like Slayer, Possessed or Morbid Saint. I fucking love The American Way and that's pretty damn catchy and commercial. But once the LA cock rock elements start creeping into a thrash record I'm usually out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Dead1 said:

I don't hear much glam in AIH (and again I enjoy glam). 

I mean where are you hearing glam in songs like this?  

Sure there's a bit of guitar wank but that's not glam.  

I guess I mostly hear it in the vocals. And also the slick production, which in the 80's tended to be more prevalent on the glam/mainstream side of things. In 1989 glam rock was synonymous with the mainstream at least inside the rock/metal world. So when I hear the sterile production job it immediately brings to mind mainstream 80's bands I never liked.

Record companies were understandably more willing to dump money into production for shit they thought would sell so they could get a good return on their investment. The major labels didn't really understand thrash metal so they largely ignored it in the beginning which prompted the rise of the metal specialty labels in the 80's like Megaforce and Combat. Those upstart labels didn't have deep pockets for production at first, so quite a few 80's thrash bands' first couple of albums sound like ass. Testament, Overkill, Exodus even Megadick come to mind. Annihilator doesn't fall into that category, they had label support right from the start.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, agamerwholovesmetal said:

ok I might get burned at the stake for this but... why all the hate for things being "commercial" or polished. That doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

You're absolutely right.  I actually really enjoy some more polished metal.  BUT generally polished extreme metal falls a bit flat.  It removes a lot of the impact IMO. 

 

And today so many things are overpolished to the point of being plastic sounding and soulless (eg nearly whole Nuclear Blast and Napalm Records roster).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, agamerwholovesmetal said:

ok I might get burned at the stake for this but... why all the hate for things being "commercial" or polished. That doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

That's my personal taste. When it comes to metal, especially extreme metal, black/death/thrash polished and commercial absolutely ruins it for me. Clean vocals aren't generally appreciated either. Surprised this is a controversial opinion. But of course you're under no obligation to agree, and no one here is gonna "burn" you for offering an honest opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

I agree overproduced and extreme don’t go together. It’s less of an issue for me in eighties thrash for some reason.

I think by the standards of today, 1980s thrash isn't over produced.  Probably the best produced thrash albums were the Metallica ones done by Fleming Rasmussen (RTL, MOP) and Slayer's work with Rick Rubin (RIB, SOH) and those don't detract from the music.

Nearly everything else retains a reasonably raw sound (not Venom level, but certainly not 1980s glam let alone 2000s Nuclear Blast type sound).

IMO the whole overproduction really kicks in in the 2000s with Pro-Tools and other software replacing studios.

Producer skill and studio equipment quality were replaced with computers that easily recorded or replaced actual sound.  Hence today you have no names coming up with perfect yet totally soulless and plastic sound that makes even 1980s glam bands sound like 2nd wave black metal.

 

However I still think even with digital bullshit, you need a good producer and mixer and a decent studio to get a good sound.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Dead1 said:

I think by the standards of today, 1980s thrash isn't over produced.  Probably the best produced thrash albums were the Metallica ones done by Fleming Rasmussen (RTL, MOP) and Slayer's work with Rick Rubin (RIB, SOH) and those don't detract from the music.

However I still think even with digital bullshit, you need a good producer and mixer and a decent studio to get a good sound.

I don't reckon the Fleming Metallica albums are that well produced. I mean, they're ok sound-wise, they're legendary albums, but I never liked the drum sound - which isn't even a dig at Lars. When I listen to these albums I do think sometimes about the production - which means it isn't excellent production. 

Slayer on the other hand, RiB, SoH and SitA, are almost perfect. Rick Rubin only became a joke much later in his career. 

The recording format (digital or analog) makes no difference today. In fact, recording to tape has so much limitation that it isn't really worth it anymore - except for the kudos. The GEAR does make a difference. Dedicated outboard gear is going to sound better than everything in the box. 

The dumb reality is that it seems common to, even when you recorded in a good studio, to sample replace all the drums and re-amp the dry guitar signal through a processor. It can be done tastefully,

I listened to AiH yesterday from an original vinyl. Actually, the drum sound is a bit 80s boxy which does detract from it. But great overall. Not sure what that guitar tone issue is from the OP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO the problem with digital isn't the technology, it is that it is used as a lazy short cut and everyone's using the same software the same way resulting in soulless, sterile and homogenous sound.

Nuclear Blast is to the point their production style is universal to nearly any band in any genre on their roster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JonoBlade said:

I don't reckon the Fleming Metallica albums are that well produced. I mean, they're ok sound-wise, they're legendary albums, but I never liked the drum sound - which isn't even a dig at Lars. When I listen to these albums I do think sometimes about the production - which means it isn't excellent production. 

Slayer on the other hand, RiB, SoH and SitA, are almost perfect. Rick Rubin only became a joke much later in his career. 

The recording format (digital or analog) makes no difference today. In fact, recording to tape has so much limitation that it isn't really worth it anymore - except for the kudos. The GEAR does make a difference. Dedicated outboard gear is going to sound better than everything in the box. 

The dumb reality is that it seems common to, even when you recorded in a good studio, to sample replace all the drums and re-amp the dry guitar signal through a processor. It can be done tastefully,

I listened to AiH yesterday from an original vinyl. Actually, the drum sound is a bit 80s boxy which does detract from it. But great overall. Not sure what that guitar tone issue is from the OP.

I'm surprised there are still convos going on in the thread but that's for another time. Anyways I've relistened to the album and I've misjudged the guitar sound. Guess I felt that it was playing the same way throughout the album.

1 minute ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Whoa, a rare late night Deadovic sighting!

Helloween - Walls of Jericho

 

Dude I love that Helloween album.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, BlackSmith said:

I'm surprised there are still convos going on in the thread but that's for another time. Anyways I've relistened to the album and I've misjudged the guitar sound. Guess I felt that it was playing the same way throughout the album.

Dude I love that Helloween album.

Yeah man, it's a great fucking album. I don't go any farther with Helloween than just this and their first EP also from '85. The whole Keepers thing just doesn't work for me. But those first two releases are golden. Hard to believe that was 38 years ago now. When I posted Walls I guess I must've mistakenly thought I was on the other thread.

After a thread seems to have run its course on the original topic, we'll often go off on tangents and talk about other stuff. No disrespect to the OP intended.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Join Metal Forum

    joinus-home.jpg

  • Our picks

    • Whichever tier of thrash metal you consigned Sacred Reich back in the 80's/90's they still had their moments.  "Ignorance" & "Surf Nicaragura" did a great job of establishing the band, whereas "The American Way" just got a little to comfortable and accessible (the title track grates nowadays) for my ears.  A couple more records better left forgotten about and then nothing for twenty three years.  2019 alone has now seen three releases from Phil Rind and co.  A live EP, a split EP with Iron Reagan and now a full length.

      Notable addition to the ranks for the current throng of releases is former Machine Head sticksman, Dave McClean.  Love or hate Machine Head, McClean is a more than capable drummer and his presence here is felt from the off with the opening and title track kicking things off with some real gusto.  'Divide & Conquer' and 'Salvation' muddle along nicely, never quite reaching any quality that would make my balls tingle but comfortable enough.  The looming build to 'Manifest Reality' delivers a real punch when the song starts proper.  Frenzied riffs and drums with shots of lead work to hold the interest.


      There's a problem already though (I know, I am such a fucking mood hoover).  I don't like Phil's vocals.  I never had if I am being honest.  The aggression to them seems a little forced even when they are at their best on tracks like 'Manifest Reality'.  When he tries to sing it just feels weak though ('Salvation') and tracks lose real punch.  Give him a riffy number such as 'Killing Machine' and he is fine with the Reich engine (probably a poor choice of phrase) up in sixth gear.  For every thrashy riff there's a fair share of rock edged, local bar act rhythm aplenty too.

      Let's not poo-poo proceedings though, because overall I actually enjoy "Awakening".  It is stacked full of catchy riffs that are sticky on the old ears.  Whilst not as raw as perhaps the - brilliant - artwork suggests with its black and white, tattoo flash sheet style design it is enjoyable enough.  Yes, 'Death Valley' & 'Something to Believe' have no place here, saved only by Arnett and Radziwill's lead work but 'Revolution' is a fucking 80's thrash heyday throwback to the extent that if you turn the TV on during it you might catch a new episode of Cheers!

      3/5
      • Reputation Points

      • 10 replies
    • I
      • Reputation Points

      • 2 replies
    • https://www.metalforum.com/blogs/entry/52-vltimas-something-wicked-marches-in/
      • Reputation Points

      • 3 replies

    • https://www.metalforum.com/blogs/entry/48-candlemass-the-door-to-doom/
      • Reputation Points

      • 2 replies
    • Full length number 19 from overkill certainly makes a splash in the energy stakes, I mean there's some modern thrash bands that are a good two decades younger than Overkill who can only hope to achieve the levels of spunk that New Jersey's finest produce here.  That in itself is an achievement, for a band of Overkill's stature and reputation to be able to still sound relevant four decades into their career is no mean feat.  Even in the albums weaker moments it never gets redundant and the energy levels remain high.  There's a real sense of a band in a state of some renewed vigour, helped in no small part by the addition of Jason Bittner on drums.  The former Flotsam & Jetsam skinsman is nothing short of superb throughout "The Wings of War" and seems to have squeezed a little extra out of the rest of his peers.

      The album kicks of with a great build to opening track "Last Man Standing" and for the first 4 tracks of the album the Overkill crew stomp, bash and groove their way to a solid level of consistency.  The lead work is of particular note and Blitz sounds as sneery and scathing as ever.  The album is well produced and mixed too with all parts of the thrash machine audible as the five piece hammer away at your skull with the usual blend of chugging riffs and infectious anthems.  


      There are weak moments as mentioned but they are more a victim of how good the strong tracks are.  In it's own right "Distortion" is a solid enough - if not slightly varied a journey from the last offering - but it just doesn't stand up well against a "Bat Shit Crazy" or a "Head of a Pin".  As the album draws to a close you get the increasing impression that the last few tracks are rescued really by some great solos and stomping skin work which is a shame because trimming of a couple of tracks may have made this less obvious. 

      4/5
      • Reputation Points

      • 4 replies
×
×
  • Create New...