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4 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I prefer black metal bands to err on the side of underproduced, rather than over. But really as long as they capture that filthy guitar sound and some solid bottom end and avoid clickety-clackety drums and a coffee can snare sound then I'm happy. On the whole I definitely like modern day extreme metal production much better than typical tinny early 90's production. I'm not a studio guy like some of you, so I really don't know what it is specifically, but to me they just hadn't figured out how to record extreme metal yet back then 30 years ago. The majority of those early 90's black and death metal albums just sound too thin to me. I hear some people complain that modern day production is too cookie cutter and all bands sound basically the same. But that's not a problem for me as long as it sounds good and full and not tinny.

In general I prefer all metal to be slightly underproduced, even power metal and melodic death metal.

I can understand what you mean about too thin, but today's production is often so dense you lose clarity.  Very often the guitars end up being merged with drums and base so you lose riff definition.  So you end up with a wall of noise where the only things that stand out are clickety clack drums and vocals.*

Eg check out out Misery Index or even Lamb of God (who I generally like) or from a truly extreme perspective Tomb Mold and Gatecreeper.  

The other thing is modern production is also often "plastic" sounding and very homogenised ie artificial as fuck and cookie cutter.

Eg check out just about anything on Nuclear Blast or most modern mainstream "extreme" bands be they Kreator or Arch Enemy or Behemoth or whatever.

So I prefer the 1980-1990s sound where clarity was key and also where production was bespoke and as much art as the performance and song writing.

*Having said that I have industrial hearing loss so that might play an impact.  I can't listen to low DR stuff for any duration of time lest I get a headache.

 

As for old school production, bands like Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse, Dismember and Entombed all managed good heavy production in 1990s.  

Black Metal was off course thin but remember it's goal was to go back to early 1980s extreme scene ala Bathory, Sodom, Sarcofago, Destruction etc which really was thin.   And by 1999 black metal bands like Emperor and Dimmu Borgir were starting to embrace a more beefier sound and doing it quite well.

 

Just my $0.02.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/18/2022 at 7:09 PM, Dead1 said:

In general I prefer all metal to be slightly underproduced, even power metal and melodic death metal.

I can understand what you mean about too thin, but today's production is often so dense you lose clarity.  Very often the guitars end up being merged with drums and base so you lose riff definition.  So you end up with a wall of noise where the only things that stand out are clickety clack drums and vocals.*

Eg check out out Misery Index or even Lamb of God (who I generally like) or from a truly extreme perspective Tomb Mold and Gatecreeper.  

The other thing is modern production is also often "plastic" sounding and very homogenised ie artificial as fuck and cookie cutter.

Eg check out just about anything on Nuclear Blast or most modern mainstream "extreme" bands be they Kreator or Arch Enemy or Behemoth or whatever.

So I prefer the 1980-1990s sound where clarity was key and also where production was bespoke and as much art as the performance and song writing.

*Having said that I have industrial hearing loss so that might play an impact.  I can't listen to low DR stuff for any duration of time lest I get a headache.

 

As for old school production, bands like Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse, Dismember and Entombed all managed good heavy production in 1990s.  

Black Metal was off course thin but remember it's goal was to go back to early 1980s extreme scene ala Bathory, Sodom, Sarcofago, Destruction etc which really was thin.   And by 1999 black metal bands like Emperor and Dimmu Borgir were starting to embrace a more beefier sound and doing it quite well.

 

Just my $0.02.

This is why some of us find ourselves avoiding the bigger major label bands and their bigger major label production jobs. Not because they're popular or successful or whatever but because of the plastic overproduced sound. For the most part I'm personally ok with the wall of sound approach (within reason) as many of the bands I listen to could be described this way. But yeah a little separation is important. Overall though I'm willing to sacrifice a little clarity to avoid that thinness typified by the early Destrucrion records for instance. It's a preference. Lesser of two evils maybe.

I agree though that lots of bands did manage to achieve more than acceptable production back in the 80's and 90's, but it seemed to be hit and miss from band to band and album to album. I feel like in the oughts and early 10's there was a mass overcorrection and most everything sounded compressed and brickwalled and shitty for awhile and that sucked. More recently (and very anecdotally) I feel like I encounter that kind of thing much less often, but that could have more to do with the fact that I rarely listen to plastic sounding albums from the (sub)major labels anymore. Bands like Misery Index, LoG, Gatecreeper, Kreator or Behemoth are just not on my radar so I don't know and can't speak to what the production jobs on those albums sound like.

I guess album production to me is something I basically only notice when there's a problem. Most records I hear these days I don't hear that many problems. With the 90's stuff I hear a lot more problems.

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I've always found production to be subjective anyway, everyone's hearing is different, everyone's judgement is different, what sounds terrible to one person doesn't always sound terrible to everyone else. Sometimes even obvious mistakes get made and some people don't hear them. Producer fatigue, where people seem to get sick of a particular producer because their name seems to be on every album, also seems to be relevant on a number of forums, Andy Sneep cops a lot of that. When it comes down to personal opinion we can't all think the same thing.

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56 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

I've always found production to be subjective anyway, everyone's hearing is different, everyone's judgement is different, what sounds terrible to one person doesn't always sound terrible to everyone else. Sometimes even obvious mistakes get made and some people don't hear them. Producer fatigue, where people seem to get sick of a particular producer because their name seems to be on every album, also seems to be relevant on a number of forums, Andy Sneep cops a lot of that. When it comes down to personal opinion we can't all think the same thing.

Well obviously, because if we all heard and thought about things the same way there wouldn't be any need to discuss this stuff. But doesn't it go without saying that nearly everything about music is subjective? I know in the past I've been accused of stating things "as facts" but is the "imo" disclaimer really necessary on every post? Isn't it already implied that pretty much everything any of us might type here is just our own personal opinions?

Funny, I haven't seen Andy Sneaps name on any of the albums I've bought in the last few years.

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I started with mIRC back in '99, before that I would get music recs from chat forums of various sorts typically.  Then I got into audiophildom and their forums.  I wasn't very exclusive to listening to metal at the time, that came about mid naughts.   Those audio forums typically have a thread or three on metal music.  It wasn't till I found MFi that I really went down the whole underground metal scene.   So here I am now.  

I also still participate in the Vortex rating sheet, but it is mostly so I can gleen some good recs there too.  

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On 11/5/2022 at 7:27 AM, KillaKukumba said:

Andy Sneep cops a lot of that. When it comes down to personal opinion we can't all think the same thing.

Any Sneap's problem is that he has one sound he applies for all bands regardless of subgenres.

 

Though that's the problem with a lot of metal these days.

On 11/5/2022 at 4:03 AM, GoatmasterGeneral said:

This is why some of us find ourselves avoiding the bigger major label bands and their bigger major label production jobs. Not because they're popular or successful or whatever but because of the plastic overproduced sound. For the most part I'm personally ok with the wall of sound approach (within reason) as many of the bands I listen to could be described this way. But yeah a little separation is important. Overall though I'm willing to sacrifice a little clarity to avoid that thinness typified by the early Destrucrion records for instance. It's a preference. Lesser of two evils maybe.

I agree though that lots of bands did manage to achieve more than acceptable production back in the 80's and 90's, but it seemed to be hit and miss from band to band and album to album. I feel like in the oughts and early 10's there was a mass overcorrection and most everything sounded compressed and brickwalled and shitty for awhile and that sucked. More recently (and very anecdotally) I feel like I encounter that kind of thing much less often, but that could have more to do with the fact that I rarely listen to plastic sounding albums from the (sub)major labels anymore. Bands like Misery Index, LoG, Gatecreeper, Kreator or Behemoth are just not on my radar so I don't know and can't speak to what the production jobs on those albums sound like.

I guess album production to me is something I basically only notice when there's a problem. Most records I hear these days I don't hear that many problems. With the 90's stuff I hear a lot more problems.

It's not just major label stuff that's brickwalled, overcompressed, overpolished,  plastic sounding and generic  Plenty of underground stuff is the same.  Some genres are notorious for it eg tech death and power metal.  A lot of thrash and death metal is too.  I've heard goregrind bands that are on par with power metal in terms of overproduced, sterile and polished.

Easy access to pro-tools and similar programs makes it all too easy.

 

It's why I prefer "blackened" speed and thrash when it comes to modern metal.  And by "blackened"  I really am referring to stuff that uses a 1980s approach to production and sound.

I think in an ideal world the production is just part of the overall listening experience and isn't noticeable but the album is better for it - ie great production creates synergies that elevate the album above the mire.

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9 hours ago, Dead1 said:

I think in an ideal world the production is just part of the overall listening experience and isn't noticeable but the album is better for it - ie great production creates synergies that elevate the album above the mire.

Yip. Good production should be present but you generally won't even realise it is there. 

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12 hours ago, Dead1 said:

Andy Sneap's problem is that he has one sound he applies for all bands regardless of subgenres.

+1000

I love Andy Sneap as an artist for what he did with Sabbat or Hell.

But as a producer, every band that comes through his studio comes out with exactly the same sound.

I've always preferred albums with a unique sound that you can't hear anywhere else. If I listen to Sabbat's Dreamweaver album, I know it in less than a second, just by the sound. The same goes for Wrath's Nothing to Fear, Kreator's Pleasure to Kill, Testament's The Legacy.

If those albums had passed through his hands in his studio..

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1 hour ago, Arioch said:

I love Andy Sneap as an artist for what he did with Sabbat or Hell.

I've always preferred albums with a unique sound that you can't hear anywhere else. If I listen to Sabbat's Dreamweaver album, I know it in less than a second, just by the sound. The same goes for Wrath's Nothing to Fear, Kreator's Pleasure to Kill, Testament's The Legacy.

Creatively, Sneap never topped what he did with Sabbat and that was, like, aged 17-20 or something. 

However, I would not have singled out Sabbat as actually sounding good. The production was pretty bad - although with a recognisable sound you could equate to "unique charm". I suspect there will be an interview somewhere where he says he got into production as a reaction to not liking how his early records were produced/engineered.

In that era I would say Slayer under Rick Rubin sounded the best. Which is funny because Rick Rubin is now renowned for ruining the sound of records.

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18 hours ago, JonoBlade said:

However, I would not have singled out Sabbat as actually sounding good. The production was pretty bad - although with a recognisable sound you could equate to "unique charm". I suspect there will be an interview somewhere where he says he got into production as a reaction to not liking how his early records were produced/engineered.

Sabbat didn't sound "good" on their albums, I agree. It lacked punch, clarity too.

But the first two Sabbats, you can tell them from the first second you hear them.

They sound like no other album and that's where their strength lies.

When the songs are good, the sound around them is secondary.

And I prefer the original Dreamweaver sound a thousand times over a potential version that has been passed through the hands of Andy Sneap.

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8 hours ago, Arioch said:

And I prefer the original Dreamweaver sound a thousand times over a potential version that has been passed through the hands of Andy Sneap.

Ha. That would be an interesting project for him. Given the personal connection he may even retain the charm and not ruin it by making it sound like everything else. It just needs clearing up a bit and some balls to the drums.

I will throw on Dreamweaver again tomorrow to refresh my memory, but I recall the acoustic bits being really badly matched to the heavy parts (which are just noisy, but not particularly powerful).

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1 hour ago, JonoBlade said:

I will throw on Dreamweaver again tomorrow to refresh my memory, but I recall the acoustic bits being really badly matched to the heavy parts (which are just noisy, but not particularly powerful).

I love this album so much... I couldn't stand to hear anything other than the original, it's so much a part of a whole.

In fact, I consider Dreamweaver to be my favourite European Thrash album after all these years. Of course, I love Onslaught's The Force, or Kreator's Pleasure to Kill, but Dreamweaver touches me much more. As a former role-playing game fan and a fan of the Fantasy literary genre, Dreamweaver "speaks" to me much more.

Besides, I still have to read the novel The Way of Wyrd by Brian Bates from which the lyrics of Dreamweaver are taken.

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On 11/4/2022 at 2:49 PM, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Well obviously, because if we all heard and thought about things the same way there wouldn't be any need to discuss this stuff. But doesn't it go without saying that nearly everything about music is subjective? I know in the past I've been accused of stating things "as facts" but is the "imo" disclaimer really necessary on every post? Isn't it already implied that pretty much everything any of us might type here is just our own personal opinions?

Yep.  Even if you use the words "best " or "greatest," it's all still one guy in the end.  The critical mindsets and personal mindsets each have their own criteria, but whether you consider something best by criteria, like I do with LZ4, the criteria itself is also subjective, so me saying the best album I've ever heard based on my own criteria for quality is LZ4 would hardly be any different from saying my favorite album to listen to in general is Graceland.

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On 11/8/2022 at 7:16 PM, SurgicalBrute said:

Please define "grew" because when I looked it up a few months ago, it seemed like, while they included a wider variety of music, the place was dead as dead could be as far as any kind of social interaction. They were basically just kind of jerking themselves off about having made Metacritic, but for music

Do you mean the Discord channel?  That is where it moved over to.  They interact there, but I mostly just follow the sheet to see if there is anything interesting that I didn't know was released.

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43 minutes ago, JorKid said:

Do you mean the Discord channel?  That is where it moved over to.  They interact there, but I mostly just follow the sheet to see if there is anything interesting that I didn't know was released.

I was looking at their Reddit page and that little blog Snyde was doing which hasn't updated in six months where he made it sound like they're slowing down quite a bit on the social side of things

 

Quote

 

We are 6 months into 2022 and things are looking dire...

This seems to have taken a toll on the vortex itself. With interest in current music dwindling by the day, our community activities have been the only thing picking up the slack in terms of meaningful discussion. With that said, the vortex may slow down but it never stops. Its endless churning always manages to dredge up 10 records, however dubious their overall quality, to the top of the heap

 

 

...and apparently Watain and Satyricon were in the top ten at that point, which is its own set of issues 😁

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2 hours ago, SurgicalBrute said:

...and apparently Watain and Satyricon were in the top ten at that point, which is its own set of issues 😁

Haha...I remember those idiots (particularly Snyde) being mad at me because Necrophobic held the #1 spot for months on end like it was somehow my fault. But I mean Necrophobic wasn't even in my personal top 10 that year, it just turned out to be the album that the widest cross-section of them could all agree was decent and no one gave it a really shit score. Only takes a couple of 1's and 2's to knock something out of the top 20. That was the whole problem with their stupid spreadsheet from go, it was never going to reflect the quality of albums, it only served to highlight albums that neither the 'goat mafia' or the 'prog pansies' found egregiously offensive.

But then of course on Christmas Eve Goldy messaged and said the guys had talked it over and they wanted him to ask me if I could please not participate in 2019 because I was ruining the integrity of their spreadsheet with all my shitty goat metal. And that's the last time I ever went there. I still get a kick out of seeing what their top 10 is every now and then when fringe members stop by here. Maybe if Josh or Mark happen to see this post they could entertain me by relating the current Vortex top 10.

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42 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Maybe if Josh or Mark happen to see this post they could entertain me by relating the current Vortex top 10.

This is the top ten as of today

Wormrot Hiss
Messa Close
Immolation Acts of God
Imperial Triumphant Spirit of Ecstasy
Desolate Shrine Fires of the Dying World
The Antichrist Imperium Volume III: Satan in His Original Glory
Worm Bluenothing
Aeviterne The Ailing Facade
Artificial Brain Artificial Brain
Tomb Mold Aperture of Body

 

The other big issue is that it doesn't account for any kind of response bias. If you look at the scores, way too many seem to be in the 5-to-7 range...i.e average. Now it's possible those scores reflect the feelings of the voter, but there is such a thing as Neutral Responding Bias where people who aren't sure what to say will just choose neutral response the the question

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15 minutes ago, SurgicalBrute said:

Now it's possible those scores reflect the feelings of the voter, but there is such a thing as Neutral Responding Bias where people who aren't sure what to say will just choose neutral response the the question

There is also the people who always vote some bands high and some bands low, so NRB is really just a way of saying some people fit in between. But if one was to take all those considerations into account when tallying votes, on any subject, there would never be a definitive winner or loser because for every option ones considers an anomaly it can be explained. Unless there is actual evidence of up, neutral or down voting it's far better to ignore such things and accept that any vote is only as good as the numbers it creates and will only ever be a suggestive snapshot in time.

 

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