What the early black metallers get right: extreme metal should not be popular.

[AlSymerz]

You should talk to Dave Mustaine, he embarrasses thrash metal every time he opens his mouth!
 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

1 hour ago, SurgicalBrute said:

Well, I can see how you're confused since you're apparently reading things I didn't say. I never mentioned anything about extreme metal being on the brink of irreparably damage...even more specifically, I never said anything about extreme metal as a whole. So lets dial back on the exaggeration a bit. What I said was that there is a very real, and easily verifiable, increase in the number of scene tourists glomming onto black metal. Further, that's not meant as a statement regarding metal's overall popularity, it's an observation regarding what appears to be an emerging trend.

Now to address some of your other points. Looking to CD's, or any physical media for that matter, as some kind of metric doesn't make any sense. That's not how people, especially people younger than us, find out about music or how they consume it. Hell, most box stores, at least here in the U.S., have pulled CD's almost entirely anyway, so that's really not a good indication towards what people are actually accessing any more than listening to the radio top-40 is going to clue you in to what's popular with the kids these days. Music spreads through social media and streaming now, and people can easily listen to anything they run across. Why do you think so many people are buzzing about that Blackbraid album...he's not signed to a mainstream label. That was an indie release done through a tiny Belgian label. Same with Lamp of Murmuur last year...Death Prayer Records is a tiny label but everyone was jerking off to his stuff (not a jab, I like his stuff too)

Additionally, you're making exactly the same mistake I was talking about. You're conflating people who are new to something, but have a genuine interest, with the kind of people who see it as nothing more than a fashion statement. Being new to something, and lacking knowledge about it, doesn't make you a casual...I don't use the term like that. I use it interchangeably with tourist or dabbler. I wouldn't describe our time on the Amazon board as just dabbling, simply because we generally wanted to learn more.

...and you're right, originally the real fans would usually assimilate in, while the tourists would eventually wander off. The problem is, and this is quite literally at the heart of what I'm saying, so if nothing else read this part...

...tourists don't just move along anymore. As more of them start coming in, they eventually reach a point where they're the majority voice -  or at the very least they become the loudest voice - and because of this they start to dictate the norms of the scene. That's the point when these people do actually shit things up, because for most of them it's just something to add to their social media profile to make up for their lack of personality. It's a shiny new toy that caught their eye, and yes...they'll eventually abandon it, but while they're there, they're going to demand, influence, and just generally try to make things conform to their own wants and desires. This tends to force the people who were there at the start either into the margins or out of their own scene. Either way, by the time these assholes move on, they've usually managed to stomp out anything the original group found unique and enjoyable about the whole thing.

Alright well first of all, since I've been involved in this converstaion there have been multiple participants so I'm sure I could have gotten it mixed up in my head just exactly who said what. It sounded to me like Deadly was basically saying that mainstreamers are ruining the extreme metal scene and that you were basically taking his side and agreeing with him. If I've falsely attributed anything to you where you weren't the one who said it, then I apologize, it was not intentional. As far as my tendencies for exaggeration and hyperbole is concerned...how long have you known me? That's just how I like to write, I enjoy using colorful descriptive language. I treat this place like my own little heavy metal creative writing course. I feel comfortable taking more hyperbolic liberties when conversing with people I know because I assume they'll pick up on the hyperbole and knowing who I am they'll understand and take it for what it's worth.

With that out of the way...I still think the scenario you're describing with these 'tourists' overstaying their welcome and "shitting things up" sounds to me like you're worried about them leaving some kind of irreparable damage in their wake. If not, then please tell me what is it that you're actually worried about? Because I've read your post over a few times now and I still can't really figure out specifically what it is that you're afraid is going to happen. I understand all the words, but not what you're trying to say with them.

Mostly I guess I'm talking about these two sentences: "they start to dictate the norms of the scene." and: "they're going to demand, influence, and just generally try to make things conform to their own wants and desires." I seriously have absolutely no idea what either of these is supposed to mean. Exactly what 'things' are they trying to make conform to their desires? And how do they actually intend to achieve these results or dictate anything to anybody just from typing? You make these tourists sound like terrorists. Not trying to be difficult here, I honestly don't know what you mean.

I'm sure I've mentioned that I don't spend any time on any of the mainstream metal blogs or any other websites where I'm interacting with other metalheads (or dabblers or tourists) I'm not even reading user comments anywhere other than here and YouTube. No Invisible Oranges, No Metalsucks, No AMG, none of them. Because I just have no interest in mainstream metal news. If they had sites like that for the kvlt stuff then who knows, maybe I'd check them out. But I probably wouldn't stay long because I'm sure I wouldn't agree with much if anything they had to say. I do use M-A but just for reference and general info, I've never been on their forums.

I'm not a social media whore either. FB always seemed pretty inane and vacuous, a complete waste of time basically so I don't ever go on there, and I've never 'followed' any bands or musos or anything like I've heard others say they do. I have never even made an IG or a Twitter account. I don't understand why anyone would care about what might or might not be on some stranger's social media profile. I prefer the forum format like we have here where I can interact with a regular group of people and hopefully get to know them a little bit. I prefer a place where I can get into more in depth discussions and I can post lots of lists and kvlt black metal vids n shit.

So yeah, I really don't get it man. I like to hunt around the internet for new releases, maybe check some RYM lists, maybe check out some forum recos (as well as stuff I see mentioned on our little group text thread) that look ineteresting and I surf around YouTube a lot listening to different stuff in hopes of finding albums I'll like. Then I'll buy some of them and listen to them by myself in the privacy of my own little world here. Even as I'm typing to you I can listen to whatever I want over here while you're listening to whatever you want over there. I just can't see how this "emerging trend" of some "scene tourists glomming onto black metal" could possibly affect me in any way. I don't even understand what you mean by 'glomming' in this context. Why should I care what some casuals/dabblers think about anything?

I will take into considertion opinions from people I know and have come to trust their tastes like you or Marko or Navy or whomever, but when it comes to randos on the internet I stay purposefully unaware of what people are buzzing about or what they're dragging through the mud or what they're jerking off to. Unless maybe you or Deadly or Zack just happens to mention something they've heard, like about that Blackbraid album. Because I prefer to form my own opinions about the music I listen to and I don't really care about or need to hear anyone else's. I'm certainly not going to alter my listening habits or allow my feelings towards a band or an album to be influenced based on random strangers on the internet talking shit. So I suppose I feel connected to my own personal micro communities of metalheads that I've become part of, but I don't feel any personal connection to the larger overall metal macroverse. I just go where I go and do what I do regardless of any buzz or trends or dictating or glomming.

Oh, and I only mentioned CD's in the big box stores to begin with because that seemed to be Deadly's premise last night that because he saw they were selling extreme metal CD's there in JBHF that somehow that was a bad thing. I haven't bought more than a handful of CD's in the last decade, less than 10 I'm sure, and those were just for things that I really wanted but I couldn't find a digital option. Ripped them straight up to the drive one time and then never looked at the discs again.

[SurgicalBrute]

34 minutes ago, zackflag said:

And unlike Surge, I'm not convinced there's a scourge of tourists attempting to appropriate it. You guys probably think I'm naive, or even outright stupid, but that's okay with me.

I don't think you're stupid, but I do think maybe you've been lucky enough to probably never see something you've genuinely enjoyed for years become a shell of itself, thanks to this kind of thing.

Understand, I don't think there's some kind of existential threat constantly lurking under the bed, just waiting to take my metal music away, but I do think it's something that can and does happen under the right circumstances. That's why I think Dead hit the nail when he said there needs to be some degree of exclusionary behavior built in if you want to keep the core idea intact. That doesn't mean I'm for treating newbies like shit...far from it. I'm more than happy to try to pass on whatever shotglass of knowledge I've picked up over the years to anyone who will ask. At the same time, I want people to be here because they actually enjoy it as much as I do. Not because it's the thing to consume until the next thing comes along

[SurgicalBrute]

29 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

With that out of the way...I still think the scenario you're describing with these 'tourists' overstaying their welcome and "shitting things up" sounds to me like you're worried about them leaving some kind of irreparable damage in their wake.

Worried is too strong of a word. I don't live in constant suspicion of it happening, nor do I believe it's some kind of inevitable fact that will happen. It's more that I'm aware of the possibility of it happening, and that nothing good ever comes out of it when it does.

...and no, they're not terrorists, they're a consumer block...and just like any consumer block, when there's enough of them in a market they exert pressure on it based on what they purchase. When it comes to niche markets like metal, you really only need a relatively small number of people to influence a market.

Okay, but "so what" you ask..they're not affecting the metal you listen to, right? Maybe they wouldn't...the one thing metal has going for it is that bands tend to rise up from the bottom, not filter down from the top. So labels and the metal media have a much harder time gatekeeping bands.

...but what can theoretically happen, especially as more internet savvy tourists start finding their way into the underground side of things, is that certain aspects you like about black metal will fall out of favor. The melody gets cranked up, the production gets polished within an inch of its life. You find that less and less of the classic style of black metal is popping up as less new artists want to play it. The demand for more "accessible" black metal begins to dominate, while the classic style get pushed even further into the margins, becoming even harder to find. Maybe in protest to these changes, classic black metal goes back to a physical media only style of release. Eventually you end up with a situation where what people perceive as black metal becomes redefined. Then, when these people finally move on to something else, you're left with an extremely reduced consumer base, and a product that no longer appeals to them

[Dead1]

16 hours ago, SurgicalBrute said:

 

...but what can theoretically happen, especially as more internet savvy tourists start finding their way into the underground side of things, is that certain aspects you like about black metal will fall out of favor. The melody gets cranked up, the production gets polished within an inch of its life. You find that less and less of the classic style of black metal is popping up as less new artists want to play it. The demand for more "accessible" black metal begins to dominate, while the classic style get pushed even further into the margins, becoming even harder to find. Maybe in protest to these changes, classic black metal goes back to a physical media only style of release. Eventually you end up with a situation where what people perceive as black metal becomes redefined. Then, when these people finally move on to something else, you're left with an extremely reduced consumer base, and a product that no longer appeals to them

 

We already saw this happen a couple of times before to varying degrees.

Late 1980s/early 1990s - thrash got very polished and it was difficult to find anything with a bit more of an early 1980s raw edge and punkish abandon.

2000 - melodic death metal started to be anything but death metal. The really early melo-death had actual death metal in it in terms of riffing and drumming and not just vocals (eg Edge of Sanity, Carcass, Liiva era Arch Enemy, even Dismember).  After 2000 it again became hard to find anything raw or containing any amount of death metal.  Even the vocals stopped being death metal.  And I am not referring to just mainstream acts - in late 1990s I listened to a lot of underground melodic death eg Carnal Forge, Ebony Tears, Noumena, Corporation 187 etc.

Melodic death metal became redefined as In Flames' numetal, Soilwork's metalcore, Dark Tranquillity's gothic metal, Arch Enemy's gutless thrash and tedious plod shit by Insomnium and Belakor (though even this plod shit has disappeared).  

The whole thing killed melodic death metal for me and the genre is now wallowing in limbo - how often do you hear these kind of bands? 

 

(Anecdotally it was refreshing listening to Desdomoinous' Devastating Millenary Lies yesterday because it harkened to the mid 1990 melodic extreme metal approach).

 

[markm]

This thread is far beyond my paygrade. I am not qualified or worthy and lack the time of late, but like a 500 pound basement, balls scratching voyeur enjoying reading the verbal carnage or in the case of GG skimming because i don't have time to read War and Peace and LOTR's but do enjoy your counter culture, give no fucks, avoid the rat race mentality that I have been unsuccessful escaping. Carry on. 

P.S.-hails and ails and horns and thorns to boujie, middle aged exburbian, suburban metal adjacent  normies. You mainstream douche's need an advocate. Suddenly I find my voice. 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

17 hours ago, SurgicalBrute said:

Worried is too strong of a word. I don't live in constant suspicion of it happening, nor do I believe it's some kind of inevitable fact that will happen. It's more that I'm aware of the possibility of it happening, and that nothing good ever comes out of it when it does.

...and no, they're not terrorists, they're a consumer block...and just like any consumer block, when there's enough of them in a market they exert pressure on it based on what they purchase. When it comes to niche markets like metal, you really only need a relatively small number of people to influence a market.

Okay, but "so what" you ask..they're not affecting the metal you listen to, right? Maybe they wouldn't...the one thing metal has going for it is that bands tend to rise up from the bottom, not filter down from the top. So labels and the metal media have a much harder time gatekeeping bands.

...but what can theoretically happen, especially as more internet savvy tourists start finding their way into the underground side of things, is that certain aspects you like about black metal will fall out of favor. The melody gets cranked up, the production gets polished within an inch of its life. You find that less and less of the classic style of black metal is popping up as less new artists want to play it. The demand for more "accessible" black metal begins to dominate, while the classic style get pushed even further into the margins, becoming even harder to find. Maybe in protest to these changes, classic black metal goes back to a physical media only style of release. Eventually you end up with a situation where what people perceive as black metal becomes redefined. Then, when these people finally move on to something else, you're left with an extremely reduced consumer base, and a product that no longer appeals to them

 

Believe me, I'm accutely aware of the fact that my beloved goat metal will likely one day fall out of favor, probably suddenly and unexpectedly, like turning off a water valve and watching the flow dwindle down to a slow drip and then just stop altogether.  At that point I suppose flavors of metal I have no interest in will become popular and in demand, and then bands will start choosing to play in those sub-genres. At that point I'll have to either make a drastic change in my listening habits or just make do with what I've already got.

That's why for the last decade or so I've been buying way too much music, much more than I really have time to listen to because I see it as stocking up for the inevitable metal apocalypse. Some people hoard canned goods and batteries but I hoard goat metal and norsecore. It's like the classic desert island scenario except I've been given an extended time to grab as much music as I possibly can. Now of course I'm a bit older than you, but I feel like I could probably make it from here til the end of my days with what I've amassed so far. If I was only in my 40's like you (or younger) then I guess I'd have to come up with some kind of a backup plan.

But I mean isn't this the natural way of things? How long can any style of music really expect to stay on top unchanged and unchallenged? I think historically any given musical genre's true hey-day might last for roughly a generation or so. (although no genre ever truly dies, the recordings still exist and somebody somewhere will always want to keep its memory alive) We've been lucky to have extreme metal now for a bit more than a generation. If you count thrash (and I do) we're really coming up on nearly two generations worth of extreme metal pretty soon.

Could extreme metal as we know it last for another 10, 20, or even 30 more years? Not neccessarily, but it's certainly possible. I think it'd be very unlikely for it to last much longer than that before it changes enough to where it bears little resemblance to what we've become used to and it'd need to be called something else. Or it could all be over a lot sooner than that depending on external factors. I doubt I'll have much more than another 20 or 25 years left to walk this earth (if that) and by the end I might not even know who or where the fuck I even am. So I probably won't have to worry about what comes next for heavy music after goat metal and norsecore and caverncore falls by the wayside.

[navybsn]

3 minutes ago, markm said:

This thread is far beyond my paygrade. I am not qualified or worthy and lack the time of late, but like a 500 pound basement, balls scratching voyeur enjoying reading the verbal carnage or in the case of GG skimming because i don't have time to read War and Peace and LOTR's but do enjoy your counter culture, give no fucks, avoid the rat race mentality that I have been unsuccessful escaping. Carry on. 

I'm with you Mark. Too many things to worry about these days to be quite as passionate about this as Surge, GG, and Deadie, but I do enjoy reading their thoughts. These are the sort of well thought out discussions that really separate this group out from many others. Dudes that put actual thought behind their position and appreciate difference of opinion in a mature way. Always helps me to form a reasonable opinion about something I've never really thought about.

I'm much more of a casual metal afficianado than the heavyweights mentioned above. Normies probably wouldn't see it that way, but perspective. What I would say is that if all new metal ceased today, I'd still have more than enough out there to keep me occupied for the rest of my days. I enjoy discovering new music, but that doesn't have to be absolutely new, just something I've never heard before. And there's a metric fuckton of it out there. I would have a problem with a lack of shows or a plethora of shitty shows, because I probably enjoy live shows more than recorded music. I live in a relatively small area and go to shows that don't generally attract many scene tourists. So I haven't seen much of what Surge and Deadie are pointing out firsthand. What I have seen doesn't bother me too much. I've always looked at bands like Arch Enemy and In Flames as entry level bands. Attracts new listeners that would never stick with metal if the bar was at Archgoat or something equally gnarly. Those bands keep the fire burning and attract money/exposure for acts that are a bit more hardcore. Think along the lines of Oath of Cruelty (great fucking badass Houston band) on the same bill with Riot (a band I don't care much about). People there for Riot get exposed to something cool they'd never find on their own. Plenty of examples but that's the first that came to mind. Tours and fests, where bands earn their stripes, need those big names we might not care for down here in the inner dungeons to be successful enough to keep the thing going. So I've never felt that the success of Lamb of God or Slipknot and their many imitators would threaten my uniquely weird preference in extreme music. All metal is good to someone just like food. The presence of crappy mall food court quality burger joints hasn't affected my ability to find a truly good burger within a few minutes of my house.

[FatherAlabaster]

On 10/11/2022 at 6:39 PM, Dead1 said:

 

And extreme metal did used to mean more, in fact everything used to mean more. 

Indeed the black metal carnage of the 1990s was the extreme metal anti mainstream culture taken to a literal level. (Hardcore punk did the same as well eg Boston Crew beating up drunks, violence in British scene).  I don't condone this by the way, merely use it as an example. 

I disagree really strongly with this. I don't think it's an example of how things "used to mean more". I think it was tragic, pointless, and avoidable, and I hate how it's become valorized. Treating murders and suicides as proof of sincerity strikes me as a cultural sickness, on a much larger scale than metal. A lot of people feel this way and I suppose I just wish they wouldn't. Losing people sucks. Losing them to murder and suicide sucks worse. 

[Dead1]

56 minutes ago, FatherAlabaster said:

I disagree really strongly with this. I don't think it's an example of how things "used to mean more". I think it was tragic, pointless, and avoidable, and I hate how it's become valorized. Treating murders and suicides as proof of sincerity strikes me as a cultural sickness, on a much larger scale than metal. A lot of people feel this way and I suppose I just wish they wouldn't. Losing people sucks. Losing them to murder and suicide sucks worse. 

Not disputing it was horrid, pointless and avoidable.

But truth is those BM guys took the metal ideal and philosophical content to its most literal level. 

The genre is full of veneration for violence.  We pretend it's actually anti-violence but in reality violence is key to the imagery of metal - just look at many an album cover, aesthetics (eg bullet belt or bands pictured brandishing guns or close combat weapons), lyrics, an obsession with mainstream culture's "softness," obsession with violent literature and violent mythology, promotion of male toughness, misogyny etc.

1980s hardcore was very similar  both in Britain and US East Coast.

So it's almost inevitable that at some point someone will do something violent as opposed to merely festooning themselves with the paraphernalia of violence.

It's the same with anything eg religion or politics.  At some point extremism and literal interpretation results in horrible things (eg look at ISIS who literally tried to live like Mohammed did in terms of warfare and violence or Khmer Rouge massive self genocide of 25% of Cambodia's population due to literal interpretation of revolutionary rhetoric).  It's almost human nature.

 

We're actually lucky that most metalheads don't go as far as some of those BM or early hardcore guys.

 

-------

In any case my point was that the Norwegian BM violence was a logical development given extreme metal's anti-mainstream anti-social obsessions and fascination with violence.

 

It's not a moral statement that it was right, merely an observation.

 

Personally it should never have descended into murder and church burning.  But I agree with the anti-mainstream sentiment.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

It's debatable whether those fuckwits in Norway 30 years ago were truly anti-mainstrem in their convictions or just drunken idiots seeking attention and trying to appear edgy. I think it's safe to say Varg and Dead each had severe mental issues as well. Because murder and arson are definitely not "logical developments" from metal's anti-social nature.

Yes violence and machismo is undeniably central to the imagery widely used throughout much of metal, and I think it probably even factors into many people's enjoyment of the art form. But the overwhelming majority of metalheads have no desire to act this shit out. Because sane rational people understand the difference between violence depicted in music, literature, film and video games, and actual real life violence. I would dispute that "the metal ideal" involves murder, assault and arson. You're always gonna attract some meatheads with the amped-up testosterone fueled sounds of metal, but thankfully the real major assholes are just a fringe element, not the norm. Vast majority of metalheads you meet (at least here in the states anyway) are generally pretty cool.

[SurgicalBrute]

5 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

But I mean isn't this the natural way of things? How long can any style of music really expect to stay on top unchanged and unchallenged? I think historically any given musical genre's true hey-day might last for roughly a generation or so. (although no genre ever truly dies, the recordings still exist and somebody somewhere will always want to keep its memory alive) We've been lucky to have extreme metal now for a bit more than a generation. If you count thrash (and I do) we're really coming up on nearly two generations worth of extreme metal pretty soon.

Could extreme metal as we know it last for another 10, 20, or even 30 more years? Not neccessarily, but it's certainly possible. I think it'd be very unlikely for it to last much longer than that before it changes enough to where it bears little resemblance to what we've become used to and it'd need to be called something else. Or it could all be over a lot sooner than that depending on external factors. I doubt I'll have much more than another 20 or 25 years left to walk this earth (if that) and by the end I might not even know who or where the fuck I even am. So I probably won't have to worry about what comes next for heavy music after goat metal and norsecore and caverncore falls by the wayside.

In truth, I think it could potentially last much longer than that. Extreme metal is able to continue because it exists in a relatively niche sub-culture. The very fact that it's such a difficult listen creates a general filter effect, helping to ensure that only people who are passionate about it actually seek it out. Because those people have a vested interest in it, they'll continue to keep it alive. That's generally the strength of a niche community.

It's also why the situation I'm talking about can cause so many problems for a community like that. See, the thing is, you're right that music tends to exist in cycles, and eventually styles will fall out of favor and get replaced by something else, but you're overlooking the other aspect of this situation, that I mentioned. That those people do eventually leave. 

If enough trend hoppers come into a small scene that the market begins to treat them as the core audience to target, at the expense of the original members of the community, there's gong to come a point where the original group starts to fracture away. That creates a situation where the market is now dependent on this new group to keep going. So when they finally move on to the next shiny object that catches their eye, there aren't enough people left who actually give a damn to keep the sub-culture going.

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

7 minutes ago, SurgicalBrute said:

In truth, I think it could potentially last much longer than that. Extreme metal is able to continue because it exists in a relatively niche sub-culture. The very fact that it's such a difficult listen creates a general filter effect, helping to ensure that only people who are passionate about it actually seek it out. Because those people have a vested interest in it, they'll continue to keep it alive. That's generally the strength of a niche community.

It's also why the situation I'm talking about can cause so many problems for a community like that. See, the thing is, you're right that music tends to exist in cycles, and eventually styles will fall out of favor and get replaced by something else, but you're overlooking the other aspect of this situation, that I mentioned. That those people do eventually leave. 

If enough trend hoppers come into a small scene that the market begins to treat them as the core audience to target, at the expense of the original members of the community, there's gong to come a point where the original group starts to fracture away. That creates a situation where the market is now dependent on this new group to keep going. So when they finally move on to the next shiny object that catches their eye, there aren't enough people left who actually give a damn to keep the sub-culture going.

 

Good point Sergio. So then wouldn't it logically follow that the more difficult the listen - the tighter the filter, and therefore the less scene hoppers that will likely squeeze through?

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what you've been saying btw. My thing has really been more that there must be a level at or below which certain music becomes so esoteric, and so inacessible, and just so far removed from the kind of thing that could ever possibly have any kind of commercial viability or crossover appeal at all outside of the truly passionate hardcore devotees, that we wouldn't really even have to worry about any of these slaves to the trend crashing our party to fuck our shit up? Or in other words, if we dig our hole deep enough aren't we to a certain extent safe and insulated from most of this nonsense and 'below the fray' as it were way down here?

[Sheol]

3 hours ago, SurgicalBrute said:

In truth, I think it could potentially last much longer than that. Extreme metal is able to continue because it exists in a relatively niche sub-culture. The very fact that it's such a difficult listen creates a general filter effect, helping to ensure that only people who are passionate about it actually seek it out. Because those people have a vested interest in it, they'll continue to keep it alive. That's generally the strength of a niche community.

 

I think one of the reasons extreme metal will stick around for a long time is that it has proven to be very malleable. It can be co-opted by other genres, but it is almost inevitable that metal will incorporate other genres and influences and thus keep being "relevant" and attract new listeners. Just look at the influences from industrial, rap, shoegaze, hardcore, posthardcore, EDM and jazz. Does this mean everyone will like it? No, but keeping the genre semi-relevant will bring in new blood that will have the curiosity to dig back and fall in love with old farts like Morbid Angel, Darkthrone and whatever counts as a seminal band in 20 years. The mainstream metal feeds the extreme underground, and vice versa in a continous loop. Always has and always will.

As for tourists being the proverbial locustswarm that ruins the genre before moving on, I do think that there will always be die-hard underground maniacs that are inspired by older acts, and continue make new "old" extreme metal. Just look at all the new BM and death acts of the past 5-8-ish years. They were all born after Morbid Angel shit the bed and Behemoth became a joke, but they still seek out second wave obscure Norwegians as inspiration, for example.

[SurgicalBrute]

11 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Good point Sergio. So then wouldn't it logically follow that the more difficult the listen - the tighter the filter, and therefore the less scene hoppers that will likely squeeze through?

In general, yes...That alongside the overall lack of awareness about, and accessibility to, extreme metal has traditionally created a difficult hurdle for trend hopping. More than that, it usually requires some kind of shift in pop culture awareness...something to set it off (Like how Stranger Things suddenly made everyone Metallica fans), which is why I've tried to emphasize that I don't see this as inevitable or impending. But things like the internet, social media, and music streaming services have eroded barriers like lack of awareness and accessibility. Along side that, you factor in that "extreme metal" is just a blanket term that doesn't always mean "extremely difficult to listen to", and the old safeguards don't work as well as they once did.

I also don't think you can overlook the "fashion" aspect that tends to come along with trend hopping. It's not really about the music, it's about being able to claim you're part of this particular sub-group like it's some kind of badge. So are people like this going to dive into warmetal... probably not, but as more and more bands experiment with elements like shoegaze or post-metal in their music, you'll see those are the areas that tend to attract outside attention. That's why I think black metal has seen a bit of a recent influx

8 hours ago, Sheol said:

I think one of the reasons extreme metal will stick around for a long time is that it has proven to be very malleable. It can be co-opted by other genres, but it is almost inevitable that metal will incorporate other genres and influences and thus keep being "relevant" and attract new listeners. Just look at the influences from industrial, rap, shoegaze, hardcore, posthardcore, EDM and jazz. Does this mean everyone will like it? No, but keeping the genre semi-relevant will bring in new blood that will have the curiosity to dig back and fall in love with old farts like Morbid Angel, Darkthrone and whatever counts as a seminal band in 20 years. The mainstream metal feeds the extreme underground, and vice versa in a continous loop. Always has and always will.

Not sure how much of the conversation you've followed to this point, but to be clear, I'm not referring simply to the idea of new people finding their way into metal. I don't have an issue with that. What I take issue with is people who come into an established sub-culture and basically force it to accommodate them, usually to the detriment of the original members. That rubs me wrong. As far as I'm concerned, it's up to people to carve their own space out, not demand the space conform to them.

That being said, I don't know that I necessarily agree with your highlighted conclusion here. I've found, just with my own anecdotal observations, that most of the people who are drawn in because of the influences used from other genres of music, are rarely interested in extreme metal in a purer form. They're typically looking for more of the same.

 

8 hours ago, Sheol said:

As for tourists being the proverbial locustswarm that ruins the genre before moving on, I do think that there will always be die-hard underground maniacs that are inspired by older acts, and continue make new "old" extreme metal. Just look at all the new BM and death acts of the past 5-8-ish years. They were all born after Morbid Angel shit the bed and Behemoth became a joke, but they still seek out second wave obscure Norwegians as inspiration, for example.

I don't disagree. I'm sure some passionate fans would absolutely try to rebuild things, but with that in mind, it's far easier to maintain what already exists rather than have to rebuild from the ground floor, so I understand the mentality to gatekeep, and I don't think people are entirely wrong for doing it. It's more a question of not tossing the baby out with the bathwater

[Dead1]

16 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

It's debatable whether those fuckwits in Norway 30 years ago were truly anti-mainstrem in their convictions or just drunken idiots seeking attention and trying to appear edgy. I think it's safe to say Varg and Dead each had severe mental issues as well. Because murder and arson are definitely not "logical developments" from metal's anti-social nature.

Yes violence and machismo is undeniably central to the imagery widely used throughout much of metal, and I think it probably even factors into many people's enjoyment of the art form. But the overwhelming majority of metalheads have no desire to act this shit out. Because sane rational people understand the difference between violence depicted in music, literature, film and video games, and actual real life violence. I would dispute that "the metal ideal" involves murder, assault and arson. You're always gonna attract some meatheads with the amped-up testosterone fueled sounds of metal, but thankfully the real major assholes are just a fringe element, not the norm. Vast majority of metalheads you meet (at least here in the states anyway) are generally pretty cool.

Never said the ideal or objective of original extreme metal was murder and mayhem.  But things can lead to developments outside of original intent (I'm sure Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels would agree with me whilst they lie in their graves).

However it was almost inevitable some one or some group will take it literally, especially when metal attracts so many dysfunctional misfits in the first place and especially as the whole concept of the genre is immersed in violence.

As I mentioned same happened in hardcore punk scenes in UK and East Coast.  Sure most hardcore people are pleasant.  But those scenes did develop violent traits as they looked to take their ideals from mere music into the sphere of everything else in life.  Cue beating up drunks or people who don't fit your definition of what is right.

16 hours ago, SurgicalBrute said:

So when they finally move on to the next shiny object that catches their eye, there aren't enough people left who actually give a damn to keep the sub-culture going.

 

 

Again we've already seen this happen to thrash and death in late 1980s/early 1990s.  Sure some bands survived playing thrash/death into the late 1990s but the scenes were effectively dead.  

I mean try writing a best of Death or Thrash metal for each year between 1995 and 1999 with 10 albums per year (no melo death).  It would be a struggle.  Even 5 per annum would be a struggle.

And resurrection of thrash came largely from the extreme scenes in Norway and Sweden particularly ex-death or black metallers for thrash (eg Witchery, Aura Noir, The Haunted).

 

European black metallers also contributed to resurrection of death metal (eg Zyklon, Behemoth), though I would say some American bands ala Dying Fetus, Nile and Deeds of Flesh played a big role.

[zackflag]

So this talk of scene tourists got me thinking. Thinking particularly about this new crop of Death metal from the last 3-4ish years that's clearly heavily influenced by hardcore, or "death metal played by hardcore kids" as I've frequently heard it referred to. Basically all the Maggot Stomp records stuff, bands like Sanguisugabogg, Frozen Soul, 200 Stab Wounds or other stuff like Creeping Death, Genocide Pact and the biggest and most popular of the bunch, Gatecreeper. All very popular among the hardcore crowds and I've even heard many of them labeled as hardcore bands and not death metal. In fact, I've noticed that like 1 in every 3 new DM releases these past couple years seems to be somewhat hardcore-adjacent. It's crazy big trend right now. And many of these bands have been picked up by big labels (Century Media, Relapse, Nuclear Blast).

Could this be an example of tourists coopting an established sub-culture or genre and bending it to their will? The "tourists" in this case being hardcore kids who had some level of interest in death metal. If this is a thing that happens, it would certainly look that way to me.

[FatherAlabaster]

24 minutes ago, zackflag said:

So this talk of scene tourists got me thinking. Thinking particularly about this new crop of Death metal from the last 3-4ish years that's clearly heavily influenced by hardcore, or "death metal played by hardcore kids" as I've frequently heard it referred to. Basically all the Maggot Stomp records stuff, bands like Sanguisugabogg, Frozen Soul, 200 Stab Wounds or other stuff like Creeping Death, Genocide Pact and the biggest and most popular of the bunch, Gatecreeper. All very popular among the hardcore crowds and I've even heard many of them labeled as hardcore bands and not death metal. In fact, I've noticed that like 1 in every 3 new DM releases these past couple years seems to be somewhat hardcore-adjacent. It's crazy big trend right now. And many of these bands have been picked up by big labels (Century Media, Relapse, Nuclear Blast).

Could this be an example of tourists coopting an established sub-culture or genre and bending it to their will? The "tourists" in this case being hardcore kids who had some level of interest in death metal. If this is a thing that happens, it would certainly look that way to me.

I don't listen to that stuff too much but my impression is no, I wouldn't call that tourism, just another combination of styles that happens to be popular. Hardcore has been finding its way into death metal in different ways for a long time anyway, that influence doesn't sound out of place to me. When I think of tourists, I think of stuff like Zeal and Ardor or that first Myrkur album - totally unconvincing, stereotypical black metal parts grafted onto some other stuff for the titillation of people who don't really listen to black metal, and maybe some thinkpieces about how you're closeminded if you don't like it.

[SurgicalBrute]

14 hours ago, zackflag said:

So this talk of scene tourists got me thinking. Thinking particularly about this new crop of Death metal from the last 3-4ish years that's clearly heavily influenced by hardcore, or "death metal played by hardcore kids" as I've frequently heard it referred to. Basically all the Maggot Stomp records stuff, bands like Sanguisugabogg, Frozen Soul, 200 Stab Wounds or other stuff like Creeping Death, Genocide Pact and the biggest and most popular of the bunch, Gatecreeper. All very popular among the hardcore crowds and I've even heard many of them labeled as hardcore bands and not death metal. In fact, I've noticed that like 1 in every 3 new DM releases these past couple years seems to be somewhat hardcore-adjacent. It's crazy big trend right now. And many of these bands have been picked up by big labels (Century Media, Relapse, Nuclear Blast).

Could this be an example of tourists coopting an established sub-culture or genre and bending it to their will? The "tourists" in this case being hardcore kids who had some level of interest in death metal. If this is a thing that happens, it would certainly look that way to me.

That's an interesting question, because I know at least some of those bands are definitely getting shit on.

I'd probably split the difference with Father A a bit...I don't think I'd necessarily consider the first round or so of those bands to fall into that category. I would probably say that the longer it goes on, and the more of those kinds of bands pop up, the more I'd start leaning towards the idea that their interest in metal may not be as authentic...especially if they're a band whose most obvious influences are the other bands in that group.

[FatherAlabaster]

3 minutes ago, SurgicalBrute said:

I would probably say that the longer it goes on, and the more of those kinds of bands pop up, the more I'd start leaning towards the idea that their interest in metal may not be as authentic...especially if they're a band whose most obvious influences are the other bands in that group.

Not saying I necessarily disagree with this, but I think another possibility is that, if more new bands go for that sound, it matures into something we'd recognize as a distinct style instead of just a trendy mashup. Especially with hardcore. It's already so much a part of the history of DM. Like I say I haven't listened to a ton of these newer bands, so maybe I'm missing something important, but what I've heard (while not super compelling to me) didn't sound like the sort of shallow stereotyping that I associate with the idea of scene tourism.

[SurgicalBrute]

48 minutes ago, FatherAlabaster said:

Not saying I necessarily disagree with this, but I think another possibility is that, if more new bands go for that sound, it matures into something we'd recognize as a distinct style instead of just a trendy mashup. Especially with hardcore. It's already so much a part of the history of DM. Like I say I haven't listened to a ton of these newer bands, so maybe I'm missing something important, but what I've heard (while not super compelling to me) didn't sound like the sort of shallow stereotyping that I associate with the idea of scene tourism.

Fair point. Like I said, it is an interesting question to kind of roll around in your head. Where exactly do you define the line between trend setting and trend hopping?

 

[AlSymerz]

We're all pretty much trend hoppers at some point in our life. Even those of us that were around when Venom invented black metal.   We all chose at some point to jump on the trend of metal. Suggesting that people of today shouldn't have the same choice because metal shouldn't be popular seems a bit arrogant to me, but others opinions will vary.

[SurgicalBrute]

Calling metal a trend would imply there was some kind of increasing tendency or inclination in a noticeable portion of society towards wanting to listen to metal. If that was the case for you...fair enough, but it was in a far different state by the time I clocked onto it. That's neither here nor there though, because this isn't directly about something being popular. Trend hopping implies that a person is merely following whatever is popular at any given time, and will leave again once said thing falls out of favor....It's not seen as a positive thing. Nor is it a term that applies to people who happen to get into something while it's popular. It's specifically for people who hop from one thing to the next, merely for the sake of being fashionable.

[AlSymerz]

The thread started out suggesting metal beyond Maiden and Def Leppard shouldn't be popular, which is what I was referencing.

Obviously we have different views on what a trend and trend hopping can entail and maybe that's why I don't see anything discussed here as an issue, or even a detriment to the metal world.

Everyone should have the chance to jump on the band wagon that is metal, if it becomes popular so be it. Given that each and every person will also have a definition of 'popular' how do we even know if metal is popular or in fact too popular?

 

 

[markm]

I think metal and indeed guitar based rock music is so out of vouge given the public's interest in pop and hip hop that trend hopping is a bit of a misnomer. The rock, hard rock, punk and 80's metal I came up on is so far in the rear view mirror that it's almost anachronistic to the general public.