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What the early black metallers get right: extreme metal should not be popular.


Dead1

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I wonder what it says about me psychologically that I embrace the conformist nature of modern day derivative extreme metal. I pretty much abhor conformity in most other areas of life, and I hate to be pigeonholed myself. But yet I take great comfort in the conformity of bands staying within the well established boundaries of their sub-genres when it comes to the music I listen to. I want each element of my death metal and black metal and crust albums like the guitar and the vocals and the production all to sound a certain specific way, and if the bands jump through all the correct hoops and get it all just right it makes me very happy.

When I step back and try to look at this objectively it does seem kind of dumb, especially the way our father explains it. But still I don't see my love for sub-genre conformity changing anytime soon. And yet from past experience I know that my musical tastes have never stayed exactly the same for more than maybe a decade, so by rights I should be just about due for a shakeup. I have in recent years allowed myself to explore and get into some music other than extreme metal which is sort of a new thing for me. So maybe that's how I satisfy my need for new and different sounds without having to stray from the strict formula death & black metal that I've grown so accustomed to and comfortable with. Or worse, resort to prog death or prog black - perish the thought because they not only don't follow the rules they throw the rule book right out the window and that really doesn't work for me. Maybe in my highly disorderly personal life this is one way I can have some sense of control over something in my life, my music at least if nothing else.

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7 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Well you'd better explain it to me then Surge, because you're not making any sense. How do you get from they're carrying some extreme metal CD's at major retailers now, to the doomsday scenario of our extreme metal subculture as we've known it is under attack and on the brink of being irreparably damaged by an influx of commoners and idiots?

Well, I can see how you're confused since you're apparently reading things I didn't say. I never mentioned anything about extreme metal being on the brink of irreparably damage...even more specifically, I never said anything about extreme metal as a whole. So lets dial back on the exaggeration a bit. What I said was that there is a very real, and easily verifiable, increase in the number of scene tourists glomming onto black metal. Further, that's not meant as a statement regarding metal's overall popularity, it's an observation regarding what appears to be an emerging trend.

Now to address some of your other points. Looking to CD's, or any physical media for that matter, as some kind of metric doesn't make any sense. That's not how people, especially people younger than us, find out about music or how they consume it. Hell, most box stores, at least here in the U.S., have pulled CD's almost entirely anyway, so that's really not a good indication towards what people are actually accessing any more than listening to the radio top-40 is going to clue you in to what's popular with the kids these days. Music spreads through social media and streaming now, and people can easily listen to anything they run across. Why do you think so many people are buzzing about that Blackbraid album...he's not signed to a mainstream label. That was an indie release done through a tiny Belgian label. Same with Lamp of Murmuur last year...Death Prayer Records is a tiny label but everyone was jerking off to his stuff (not a jab, I like his stuff too)

Additionally, you're making exactly the same mistake I was talking about. You're conflating people who are new to something, but have a genuine interest, with the kind of people who see it as nothing more than a fashion statement. Being new to something, and lacking knowledge about it, doesn't make you a casual...I don't use the term like that. I use it interchangeably with tourist or dabbler. I wouldn't describe our time on the Amazon board as just dabbling, simply because we generally wanted to learn more.

...and you're right, originally the real fans would usually assimilate in, while the tourists would eventually wander off. The problem is, and this is quite literally at the heart of what I'm saying, so if nothing else read this part...

...tourists don't just move along anymore. As more of them start coming in, they eventually reach a point where they're the majority voice -  or at the very least they become the loudest voice - and because of this they start to dictate the norms of the scene. That's the point when these people do actually shit things up, because for most of them it's just something to add to their social media profile to make up for their lack of personality. It's a shiny new toy that caught their eye, and yes...they'll eventually abandon it, but while they're there, they're going to demand, influence, and just generally try to make things conform to their own wants and desires. This tends to force the people who were there at the start either into the margins or out of their own scene. Either way, by the time these assholes move on, they've usually managed to stomp out anything the original group found unique and enjoyable about the whole thing.

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7 hours ago, FatherAlabaster said:

 (You) lament the death of the underground but don't seem to listen to anything new that's coming out of it.

This is for two reasons:

1. As you mention there's a lot of "conformism" or lack or originality in the underground.  I get tired of trawling through the mire.  In fact I burned out on that in 2006 when I had a mainly underground metal radio show.  

2. I tend to listen to music primarily on physical media - CD & vinyl.  I don't have the money to buy a lot of new stuff.  This year I have brought 14 albums (10 CDs + 4 vinyl).   This is the most new music I have purchased in several years.

I do listen to new stuff via streaming/Youtube when I can at work or in the car (I don't drive much either).   

So most of my collection is old.  The new stuff I buy is generally mainstream to and very often back catalogue from the endless list.

Some underground or even lesser known albums I like I simply don't buy because of cost - paying $45 for a CD is ridiculous.  American underground is out of the question - for a while US Post was not sending stuff to Australia and now the postage is ridiculous.  Literally the postage costs more than the item itself.  Couple with weak Aussie dollar and it's exorbitant.

 

 

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I also disagree about metal being a culture, community, or value set. Shared interest in the music is pretty often the only thing I have in common with other metalheads once we start talking. That's still cool, it brings people together who might not ever meet otherwise, and it's been the start of some good friendships for me, but it's not like a gated community... just a shared subculture that coexists with a lot of other disparate elements of everyone's life: their work, their families, their living habits, their politics, and maybe if you're lucky, a circle of friends. It's possible to find community within metal but it's not something intrinsic and it's not a given.

You realise all communities are essentially like that?

(Sub)culture is the core of the community.  It is the common bond that connects us.  It can be many different things - ethnic, religious, language based, interest based, industry based, political etc.    People exist and interact within these cultures in their own unique manner.

If we didn't crave to associate with likeminded metal individuals, none of us would be here.  

And extreme metal did used to mean more, in fact everything used to mean more. 

Indeed the black metal carnage of the 1990s was the extreme metal anti mainstream culture taken to a literal level. (Hardcore punk did the same as well eg Boston Crew beating up drunks, violence in British scene).  I don't condone this by the way, merely use it as an example. 

 

 

12 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

It might be naive but I just don’t see extreme metal reaching the point where the subculture is as die looted as more commercially accessible music. The lighter metal genres sure maybe, but we are hardly likely to see the likes of Inquisition and mayhem thrust into the public I through literature or film. 

Already there is already a movie on Mayhem - I actually enjoyed it.

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

 

Our point of contention here is just that there is no connection between any of what you've been describing and the underground metal that I'm listening to. I'm not a mainstreamer or even a sub-mainstreamer like you. Not even a mainstream sympathizer. The mainstream metal world operates on a whole different frequency than the shit I'm into. A frequency that unlike you, I don't concern myself with or pay any attention to. None of that mainstream noise effects me at all, I'm oblivious to it. Like you said, in your scenario we'd have all the shitty plastic overpolished extreme metal bands becoming big but that'd be fine with me because I've never cared about any of those bands to begin with!

Actually the underground you love often eagerly mingles with the mainstream - look at the lower tier bands at any European festival.

 

And when offered they gladly take the Nuclear Blast offer of overpolished soulless Fordist metal in return for stable incomes.

 

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1 hour ago, SurgicalBrute said:

 

...tourists don't just move along anymore. As more of them start coming in, they eventually reach a point where they're the majority voice -  or at the very least they become the loudest voice - and because of this they start to dictate the norms of the scene. That's the point when these people do actually shit things up, because for most of them it's just something to add to their social media profile to make up for their lack of personality. It's a shiny new toy that caught their eye, and yes...they'll eventually abandon it, but while they're there, they're going to demand, influence, and just generally try to make things conform to their own wants and desires. This tends to force the people who were there at the start either into the margins or out of their own scene. Either way, by the time these assholes move on, they've usually managed to stomp out anything the original group found unique and enjoyable about the whole thing.

 

I'd say the extreme metal tourists are already getting a major voice through popular blogs like Invisible Oranges, Metal Sucks or Metal Injection.  
 

Though I just went to Metal Sucks for the first time in years and save a Goatwhore article, there was no extreme metal - they seem to be going down the Blabbermouth path of covering gossip crap.

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1 hour ago, SurgicalBrute said:

 there is a very real, and easily verifiable, increase in the number of scene tourists glomming onto black metal. 

Okay so what would be a specific, real-life example of a "tourist" infiltrating black metal and how does one differentiate between a tourist and new fan who has a genuine interest in the art form? Since we've established that there IS in fact a difference. What makes a tourist a tourist? And how exactly are these tourists going about dictating the norms of the scene, demanding, influencing and making things conform to their wants and desires? What is changing in black metal that is a direct result of this tourist infestation?

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If there is no 'tourists' wont attraction eventually die?

New residents have to come from somewhere, they can't all be born into the attraction.

Shit, this is beginning to sound like a gate community development project. I hope we don't get into council regulations and rules soon, not only do rules upset some people but we'll need a lawyer to make sure everything is legal.

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27 minutes ago, zackflag said:

Okay so what would be a specific, real-life example of a "tourist" infiltrating black metal and how does one differentiate between a tourist and new fan who has a genuine interest in the art form? Since we've established that there IS in fact a difference. What makes a tourist a tourist? And how exactly are these tourists going about dictating the norms of the scene, demanding, influencing and making things conform to their wants and desires? What is changing in black metal that is a direct result of this tourist infestation?

Not necessarily all black metal:

Techno guy Ghostmane who is the darling of Metal Hammer, has clearly appropriated BM aesthetics and claims to be black metal.

Deafhaven - probably the best example.

Kardashians wearing Cannibal Corpse and Morbid Angel tops

Ghost - band has claimed to be death or black metal at times and clearly appropriates black metal aesthetics.

Bands like Tribulation being praised for revolutionising death metal when in fact they simply stopped playing death metal and started playing goth rock.

Dethklock cartoon - clearly aimed at mainstream audiences and really takes the piss out of metal (all kinds but including extreme metal).  I don't mind metal pisstakes (hey I own Crotchduster and Bad News) but I draw the line when it's clearly aimed at denigrating metal in mainstream audiences.

Deathcore

I'd argue a lot of big label bands are tourists or even more bizarre, employees (ie doing a job they no longer care about but it brings an income in - I've read multiple interviews from people like Glen Benton or Tom Araya who pretty much admit this).

 

20 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

If there is no 'tourists' wont attraction eventually die?

New residents have to come from somewhere, they can't all be born into the attraction.

Shit, this is beginning to sound like a gate community development project. I hope we don't get into council regulations and rules soon, not only do rules upset some people but we'll need a lawyer to make sure everything is legal.

It was originally a gate community with a butt ton of unwritten rules.  Buy in was the hard work it took to actually discover it and the rules were many - no short hair, must be heavier/faster than previous bands. must be overtly anti-mainstream etc etc.  There was pretty much a uniform.

 

Sure a lot of those rules were dumb.

 

As for attraction dying - to be honest it shouldn't be an attraction.  I mentioned some my favourite places in Tassie becoming tourist infested.  They weren't built to be tourist attractions - they were either nature reserves or parks etc built for community enjoyment.

At some point someone puts a dollar value on it and it gets turned into an attraction. 

Do I really need my park turned into a tourist infested attraction designed to make money (especially cause at times I can't enter it without paying an entry fee because there is some tourist event)?  Do we really scarce homes converted to Air BnBs?

 

Same applies to extreme metal.  People would still find a way in if it wasn't commercialised.  Remember that's how they built it in the first place.  It wasn't driven by labels but rather by dedicated individuals writing letters and sharing tapes!

 

As I mentioned, people are forgetting the old times where there were values other than accumulation of money and mindless consumption.

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2 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

Not necessarily all black metal:

Techno guy Ghostmane who is the darling of Metal Hammer, has clearly appropriated BM aesthetics and claims to be black metal.

Deafhaven - probably the best example.

Kardashians wearing Cannibal Corpse and Morbid Angel tops

Ghost - band has claimed to be death or black metal at times and clearly appropriates black metal aesthetics.

Bands like Tribulation being praised for revolutionising death metal when in fact they simply stopped playing death metal and started playing goth rock.

Dethklock cartoon - clearly aimed at mainstream audiences and really takes the piss out of metal (all kinds but including extreme metal).  I don't mind metal pisstakes (hey I own Crotchduster and Bad News) but I draw the line when it's clearly aimed at denigrating metal in mainstream audiences.

Has Ghostmane actually stated that he's a black metal musician? Do you have a source on this?

What did Deafheaven do exactly? "Probably the best example". Best example of what? Having short hair?

The fact that metal fans are genuinely butthurt over the Kardashian's clothing attire is endlessly hilarious. Also completely irrelevant to what I was asking Surge about.

When have Ghost ever claimed to be black or death metal? Again, source? Also, they're copying black metal aesthetics just as much as they're copying Gene Simmonds' aesthetics, and I think the latter is far more likely. But I guess the similarity is there.

Yes, Tribulation started out as a death metal band then evolved into something else, just like countless bands before them (Convulse, Gorement, Disgrace, etc.) I fail to see how this is an example of "tourism".

Never saw the Dethklok cartoon.

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23 minutes ago, zackflag said:

Has Ghostmane actually stated that he's a black metal musician? Do you have a source on this?

What did Deafheaven do exactly? "Probably the best example". Best example of what? Having short hair?

The fact that metal fans are genuinely butthurt over the Kardashian's clothing attire is endlessly hilarious. Also completely irrelevant to what I was asking Surge about.

When have Ghost ever claimed to be black or death metal? Again, source? Also, they're copying black metal aesthetics just as much as they're copying Gene Simmonds' aesthetics, and I think the latter is far more likely. But I guess the similarity is there.

Yes, Tribulation started out as a death metal band then evolved into something else, just like countless bands before them (Convulse, Gorement, Disgrace, etc.) I fail to see how this is an example of "tourism".

Never saw the Dethklok cartoon.

 

Only ever read one interview with Ghostemane on Metal Hammer where it was discussed how his music incorporates black metal - can't find it now given the Louder search engine sucks.  Dude literally had a black metal logo and dressed like a black metal musician.

Ghosts claims about black metal and death metal:

 

As for Tribulation, sure they evolved/sold out (from memory the shift was abrupt).  It was the media and mainstream types who never gave two fucks about the band's death metal days that jumped on board and claimed Tribulation were revolutionising death metal.

 

Deafhaven - didn't you see all the uproar about Deafhaven and hipster black metal when Sunbather came out?  The argument went they were commercialising black metal to a whole new level,  and in fact appropriating metal undergroumnd when they 

In fact this op ed about Deafhaven explains the whole issue regarding extreme metal appropriation (and what we are calling tourism) quite succinctly:

https://clrvynt.com/david-hall-metal-op-ed/

 

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And another good article on why mainstream getting involved in metal is shit.

 

https://www.themoshpit.co/blog/why-do-we-care-so-much-about-the-cultural-appropriation-of-metal

 

Some quotes:

 

For us, metal is not just music. Many of us live metal. It is ingrained in how we identify ourselves and how we position ourselves in the world.

 

Totally agree.  I view myself as a metalhead first.  It is the core foundation of my being I see it as more important to my sense of self than father, husband, employee, Croatian/Yugoslav, Tasmanian etc.

 

And this one:

“people who don’t like metal, have all the rest of culture. Metalheads mainly just have metal. It’s like owning a massive hotel asking if they can sleep in your bed.”

Yes I view metal as "belonging" to me and other like minded metalheads.  I don't participate in the mainstream's pop culture.  I am only vaguely aware of it.  Why should they take metaldom and turn it into just another fashion trend or meme?

 

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Okay I'm starting to see what the crux of this issue is...... people who take being a metalhead WAAAAAAAY too seriously. And thus seeing perceived outside forces "infiltrating" metal as an attack on themselves, personally. Which doesn't seem like healthy, emotionally mature behavior to me.

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40 minutes ago, zackflag said:

Okay I'm starting to see what the crux of this issue is...... people who take being a metalhead WAAAAAAAY too seriously. And thus seeing perceived outside forces "infiltrating" metal as an attack on themselves, personally. 

 

Extreme metal was always meant to be more serious.  They hated the glam and mainstream guys.  They hated bands that opted to go down more commercial avenues. 

As I mentioned at the start, extreme metal wasn't intended to be successful and mainstream.   That only started to change in 1990s when major labels started thinking there was money to be made and then promptly oversaturated both death and black metal and left them reeling for most of the late 1990s.

 

 

 

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Which doesn't seem like healthy, emotionally mature behavior to me.

The needing to belong, have a sense of community is natural human behaviour.  Indeed as much as I hate humanity, I think community is really important.  And community requires some sort of binding values (not codified rules).  My neighbours and I might be very different in terms of lifestyle but we are bound by common values of true respect and Australian family values (I live in a cul-de-sac and know virtually all my neighbours).  I go to the same shops and even know some shop keepers by name!  I don't even order that much stuff on line (except toy soldiers as I can't get them anywhere else).

Old fashioned eh?  

 

The modern take on "emotionally mature behaviour" is extreme individualism and consumerism.  Modern "emotional mature behaviour" focuses on instant gratification and only focusing on self.    The only social value espoused is extreme tolerance of everything ie "I do what I do and you do what you do."  The community be damned, just "be happy", spend and consume regardless of impact on the planet or whatever.

So in that instance metal has no intrinsic value either as art or as subculture.  It's just another product to be flogged and enjoyed on a superficial level and discarded in search of something else that gives instant gratification.  

 

And incidentally modern "emotional mature behaviour" doesn't allow for true diversity in human behaviour (eg this particular website which espouses what makes up emotional maturity: https://americanbehavioralclinics.com/10-signs-of-emotional-maturity/#:~:text=An emotionally mature person has,otherwise be trying or challenging. ).  

If you don't adhere to these traits, you get marked as having a disorder or and people suggest you see a doctor and get medicated to fix your errant personality (more consumption).

So again viewing metal as anything more than a product then gets viewed as not adhering to "emotional mature behaviour."

 

Finally what's wrong with wanting to have extreme metal not be commercialised and turned into just another mainstream gimmick and meme?

 

And what's wrong with wanting to preserve metal's sense of community?

 

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46 minutes ago, zackflag said:

Okay I'm starting to see what the crux of this issue is...... people who take being a metalhead WAAAAAAAY too seriously. And thus seeing perceived outside forces "infiltrating" metal as an attack on themselves, personally. Which doesn't seem like healthy, emotionally mature behavior to me.

Seems a bit that way. Maybe it's me that is wrong but I've spent years belonging to different groups, sporting groups, farming groups, support groups, even a metalhead, but I've never 'lived' one more than the other, or 'lived' any to the point some seem too.

 

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1 minute ago, KillaKukumba said:

Maybe it's me that is wrong but I've spent years belonging to different groups, sporting groups, farming groups, support groups, even a metalhead, but I've never 'lived' one more than the other, or 'lived' any to the point some seem too.

 

There's no right or wrong in being members of different groups or not choosing one as being more important. 

But a lot of people do chose one as being more important than others - be it religion, work, politics, sporting club, sexuality, or indeed music or other subculture.

So you can't write off a big chunk of humanity that choses to identify with something as integral to their being as "lacking emotional maturity."  

To illustrate the point is every single dedicated Christian, Jew, Hindu, Sikh or Muslim then "lacking emotional maturity"? 

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22 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

 

However isn't suggesting that metal of any kind shouldn't be open to all writing off a big chunk of humanity?

 

Firstly, my focus was extreme metal which was always anti-mainstream in intent (death, black, grind, arguably thrash).  Everything else had a mainstream bent from the start even Black Sabbath and Judas Priest.

(Though even then mainstream only to a certain point cause at some point it just ends in really gutless stuff like Sabaton or Ghost or even worse non-metal like Linkin Park being marketed as metal.  But even I've got Hellyeah in my collection).

Second, my point about "writing off a big chunk of humanity" was purely in reference to you and Zack talking about people opposed to extreme metal becoming mainstream "lacking emotional maturity."

 

Third I don't want extreme metal to be mainstream.  I don't want Morbid Angel tshirts at H&M (we already have Metallica's Ride the Lightning), I don't want telcos and other large corporations using extreme metal for marketing purposes, I don't want people singing death metal on some shit reality TV show as a joke, I don't want to receive extreme metal memes from non metal people, I don't want  people who don't know or understand the genre festooning themselves with extreme metal aesthetics.


So yes in that case I am excluding a large chunk of humanity out of it.  They don't get it, don't want to get it.  And that's their choice.  

 

I know that's not necessarily modern "inclusive" thinking.  

 

To quote David Hall from that article I posted:

 

https://clrvynt.com/david-hall-metal-op-ed/

 

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Be inclusive for THE SAKE OF SOCIETY! WELCOME ALL CONSUMERS TO THE TABLE. MAKE METAL YOUR IDENTITY. CLICK. BAIT. CLICK. BAIT. MORAL SUPERIORITY THROUGH THINK PIECES!!!!!!! BUY TWO PAIRS OF RAY-BANS, THAT TAKES COURAGE.

Fuck that.

 

 

EDIT:  And I am thoroughly enjoying discussing this with all you gents!  Thank you!

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4 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

Third I don't want extreme metal to be mainstream.  I don't want Morbid Angel tshirts at H&M (we already have Metallica's Ride the Lightning), I don't want telcos and other large corporations using extreme metal for marketing purposes, I don't want people singing death metal on some shit reality TV show as a joke, I don't want to receive extreme metal memes from non metal people, I don't want  people who don't know or understand the genre festooning themselves with extreme metal aesthetics.

 

If you could make that rhyme it would fit into a Manowar song.

Death to all but metal!!

 

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3 hours ago, zackflag said:

Okay so what would be a specific, real-life example of a "tourist" infiltrating black metal and how does one differentiate between a tourist and new fan who has a genuine interest in the art form? Since we've established that there IS in fact a difference. What makes a tourist a tourist? And how exactly are these tourists going about dictating the norms of the scene, demanding, influencing and making things conform to their wants and desires? What is changing in black metal that is a direct result of this tourist infestation?

Jesus Fucking Christ...I'm not sure how much clearer I can actually make this...

>>>>>I NEVER SAID WE WERE ACTUALLY AT THIS POINT<<<<<

More over, I never said it was guaranteed to happen. I said I've seen what appears to be a slowly growing trend.

Out Of Words GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

 

...but my original comment was written to refute the idea that people are trying to gatekeep out of some sense of elitism, when the truth is, most people have become wary of new people coming into their sub-cultures because they don't want to see it get fucked over by entitled outsiders who weren't there when it was considered lame, and won't be there after it becomes passe.

As for how to identify them...well I typically find that most people who are actually interested in something tend to express it through their passion for it: They ask questions, look into things on their own, enjoy talking about their likes and dislikes, try to actively meet others within the sub-culture.

It's not hard to tell the difference between people who have a genuine passion for it, and someone who's just kind of dabbling into something because the other people in the social circle are doing the same.

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44 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

Finally what's wrong with wanting to have extreme metal not be commercialised and turned into just another mainstream gimmick and meme?

Nothing. I don't want extreme metal to be commercialized either, I'm just not as convinced or as worried as you are that it's happening on a mass scale. It also wouldn't bother me as much if it was. I'm not nearly as in tune to the more mainstream end of the metal spectrum as you are, and thus don't have much of a stake in it. I find it pretty easy to ignore actually. My interest in metal is more underground and black metal focused. And unlike Surge, I'm not convinced there's a scourge of tourists attempting to appropriate it. You guys probably think I'm naive, or even outright stupid, but that's okay with me.

1 hour ago, Dead1 said:

And what's wrong with wanting to preserve metal's sense of community?

I don't find it disagreeable that some feel a sense of community in metal. However, if preserving that sense of community mean devolving into exclusionary sectarianism then that's where I take issue. I don't view "casuals" "tourists" or "posers" as some kind of existential threat that need to be expunged from whatever this so called community may be and I don't view metal as a sacred culture that is in danger of being appropriated. Keeping people out of metal inevitably leads to stagnation which will hurt the genre far more than the Kardashians wearing a Slayer t shirt.

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30 minutes ago, zackflag said:

Nothing. I don't want extreme metal to be commercialized either, I'm just not as convinced or as worried as you are that it's happening on a mass scale. It also wouldn't bother me as much if it was. I'm not nearly as in tune to the more mainstream end of the metal spectrum as you are, and thus don't have much of a stake in it. I find it pretty easy to ignore actually. My interest in metal is more underground and black metal focused. And unlike Surge, I'm not convinced there's a scourge of tourists attempting to appropriate it. You guys probably think I'm naive, or even outright stupid, but that's okay with me.

 

 

I don't think you're naïve or stupid!  

I tend to float around in the general metalsphere a lot so I guess I see things a lot more of this stuff.  

 

 

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I don't find it disagreeable that some feel a sense of community in metal. However, if preserving that sense of community mean devolving into exclusionary sectarianism then that's where I take issue. I don't view "casuals" "tourists" or "posers" as some kind of existential threat that need to be expunged from whatever this so called community may be and I don't view metal as a sacred culture that is in danger of being appropriated. Keeping people out of metal inevitably leads to stagnation which will hurt the genre far more than the Kardashians wearing a Slayer t shirt.

 

Like anything a degree of exclusionary sectarianism or at least a high cost of entry is not a bad thing.  It keeps the core values alive and the people that do enter will keep relatively true to those values. 

After all we've seen time and again  what happens when things become too loose in terms of values and too commercialised/money focused in pretty much any endeavour of human life.

 

Also lots of people doesn't necessarily equate to innovation. Late 1980s thrash and early 1990s black and death booms just oversaturated those genres and effectively near killed them.  Instead of progress they created stagnation as every man and his dog jumped on board and tried to be the new Metallica, the new Morbid Angel or the new Darkthrone.

The late 1990s rebirth of all 3 of those genres involved very small groups of people.

 

----

 

A personal anecdote - I found the same with wargaming.  I used to play Warhammer 40000 when it was much smaller and less popular.  We were all dedicated, painted our minis, made terrain and were willing to play different scenarios, campaigns of interrelated games and muck about with rules.  Then it got big and far more commercialised - company's share price skyrocketed!    

 

Yet I see it played now at the club and occasionally read the odd blog.  Painted miniatures are far rarer now, terrain is generic and brought (also unpainted) and the people just play the games exactly as per the rules and certainly don't go outside the rules or make up their own scenarios or change rules.

Literally the mainstream crowds that got into the game lacked any originality and didn't care for vesting themselves into the hobby.  But they did have lots of money to drop on dozens of US$60-$70 boxes of plastic soldier kits.  A few I know actually just buy the boxes and don't do anything with them.

 

They are the ultimate consumers and that is what I don't want extreme metal to turn into.  Though it's already on its way courtesy of mainstream tourists and labels like Nuclear Blast.

 

And the game itself got dumbed down and made about buying ever more expensive boxes of plastic soldiers. 

 

Suffice to say I haven't played that ruleset in many years and sold all my stuff.  I now do far more nerdy and "true" historical wargaming.

 

26 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

Fair enough, there will probably be non metalheads there :P

Actually nearly everyone I know who likes Steel Panther doesn't listen to any other metal.  They just like the sexist lyrics.

 

EDIT: Steel Panther are probably a good example of impact of making metal mainstream in a modern context.  Sure Motley Crue or Skid Row or Warrant were mainstream but Steel Panther are a joke that takes the piss out of them.  

 

But I don't care if mainstream people are taking the piss out of glam to make money out of  it, but I don't want the same to happen to thrash or death.

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