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Should any form of Metal be restricted by rules?


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6 hours ago, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

Agree with that Tokyo. A lot of the metal I listen to pushes the boundaries mixing music and metal which are quite surprising at times.  From my experience just confinement to certain rules gets boring quickly for music. Normally the ones who say metal is boring are the ones from my experience who see metal as set in stone. Well it's my interpretation anyway. They say I don't listen to  metal much because I'm bored of it. Metal from my experience is anything but boring. Loads of choice out there. Is that how you see it? 

Yeah OK, metal is not boring, loads of choice, I'll agree with that. But what does any of that have to do with genre restrictions or wearing corpsepaint and worsshipping Satan and that dude's post you quoted?

And what does "mixing music and metal" mean? Isn't metal already music to begin with? How is that pushing boundaries?

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21 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Yeah OK, metal is not boring, loads of choice, I'll agree with that. But what does any of that have to do with genre restrictions or wearing corpsepaint and worsshipping Satan and that dude's post you quoted?

And what does "mixing music and metal" mean? Isn't metal already music to begin with? How is that pushing boundaries?

Everything😉my point was I'm against musical restrictions. If outside the box thinking  pushes metal in a way that sounds amazing, that's superb and if I don't like it, I will happily let others listen instead of me.  I listen to a few albums by black metal bands but elites of the genre often don't class it as black metal as it does not tick all the boxes. All the church burnings  and rather elitest stuff I've heard about black metal fans puts me off seeing live shows. Like being beaten to death by there fans at a gig for not being kvlt enough or sacrificing animals for some black metal vooddoo thing at gigs. I'm much happier at doom metal or other genres of live metal shows. I could well be wrong re what live black shows are really  like. 

At least we can agree that metal music  does not have to be boring. That's the first thing we've ever agreed on 😂 but my firm opinion is music that does not push the boundaries a bit can easily become stale and boring.

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Given the media are still talking about Ozzy biting the head off a dead bat 40 years after it happened I think if there was live sacrifices and death beatings there would be more coverage of these gigs. No doubt some gigs have violence but its far from restricted to black metal, and sacrifices only happen on the 7th Sunday of the month.

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On 4/2/2022 at 9:31 AM, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

I think everyone is entitled to there view but I'm not necessarily going to agree with them. When gaal was asked about church burnings he said he agreed 100% with doing this and he wanted more of it. This kind of response just puts me off listening to his music. Chainsawkikimbo(think that's name) said on previous thread on this forum said all the burning of buildings puts him off listening to some black metal bands. I'm with him on that. 

 

At least that stuff lives up to some (albeit stupid) "kvlt" status!  I was thinking more of people who reemerge out of the past to embarrass themselves (as a certain underground musician did on a different forum I am on).

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On 3/30/2022 at 3:12 PM, GoatmasterGeneral said:

The majority of my listening time is devoted to black metal. I am to some extent a purist (although not strictly) and I've always thought corpsepaint was fucking stupid. If I could play an instrument and started a black metal band I would never even consider going the corpsepaint route. I think Satan worshiping is stupid, and although I definitely prefer my black metal to sound dark, angry, hateful and 'evil' (have no time for soft pretty sounding metal be it black or otherwise) but I can't take any of that Satan shit seriously. I have a really hard time believing that so many of these bands who might claim to be 'orthodox' and praise Satan actually believe any of this shit either. Some may disagree but I honestly think that with the vast majority of these bands it's mostly for show. I look at the whole prevailing Satan thing in black metal as basically like an occult/horror movie that one can freely enjoy without feeling obligated to buy into the premise that any of it's real. Just like all those gore based death metal bands and their fans or even the more violent thrash metal bands don't actually kill people, chop them up or eviscerate them, it's pure escapism.

That said, I do still feel there are limits to how far you can push or bend or transform or corrupt the black metal sound and have the result still qualify as black metal. But that's just my opinion for whatever it might be worth.

There is more than pure escapism, the dark arts are expressing a fundamental truth, that Existence is evil.

Quoting ― Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life

“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”

Impaled Nazarene hit the nail on the head on Rapture with "We are Satan's generation and we don't give a fuck". The best way to live is to avoid caring about anything, especially on everything that my caring makes no difference. Moral positions are delusions, lies, deceptions, for example it is impossible to grow plants without animal blood and dung or fossil (animal) fertilizers and crop protection measures (extreme mass murder), vegans kill animals.  


 


 

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13 minutes ago, Dead1 said:

Sure there's rules on how they're meant to sound.

I mean if I said following song is thrash metal, am I right or wrong?

 

 

 

Well his first album was thrash, but his second and third had more a doom feel to them and then he went neo-classical, ambient, prog metal and no one forgave him.

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On 4/2/2022 at 7:40 PM, Valso said:

Restricting any kind of music was the communism trademark and equals dictatorship. If you wanna be a dictator, be my guest, but don't expect any support from the sane people.

If I'm reading something more into this, than I apologize...but considering the phrasing and how it followed right behind my last comment, I'm just going to say that if you think that my pointing out how the very idea of music genres existing implies that there must be some degree of inherent limitation present, is in any way comparable to an authoritarian government dictating what can and can't be created on pain of punishment, then you seriously need to step back and get some goddamn fucking perspective.

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14 hours ago, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

Everything😉my point was I'm against musical restrictions. If outside the box thinking  pushes metal in a way that sounds amazing, that's superb and if I don't like it, I will happily let others listen instead of me.  I listen to a few albums by black metal bands but elites of the genre often don't class it as black metal as it does not tick all the boxes. All the church burnings  and rather elitest stuff I've heard about black metal fans puts me off seeing live shows. Like being beaten to death by there fans at a gig for not being kvlt enough or sacrificing animals for some black metal vooddoo thing at gigs. I'm much happier at doom metal or other genres of live metal shows. I could well be wrong re what live black shows are really  like. 

At least we can agree that metal music  does not have to be boring. That's the first thing we've ever agreed on 😂 but my firm opinion is music that does not push the boundaries a bit can easily become stale and boring.

I think a psychologist could probably explain exactly why some of us 'elitists' take comfort in music that ticks the right boxes and doesn't push too many boundaries. I know I don't need every band to reinvent the wheel and indeed most of the time when bands have tried I haven't liked the results. Don't want my boundaries pushed. Which isn't to say I think that's the right path for everyone, but it certainly works for me. I can totally understand why others say they find certain music stale & boring, derivative and predictable. Meat & potatoes. Static, Doc would say. Those things just happen to be positives for me. Fortunately we're so spoiled for choice these days that there are plenty of bands on each side, either doing what they're told & sticking to the plan, or being more adventurous & experimental. Forward thinking as I've heard it described. So that's a win for music lovers in general I suppose.

As far as the black metal live shows, I haven't experienced anything like what you've described, sweets gobbler. No church burnings, no animal blood or sacrifice, no violence, beatings, rape or torture, no Satanic rituals, I've just seen black metal bands that have taken the stage and played their music. Not saying some of this stuff might not happen some where some time, it just hasn't ever happened anywhere I've ever been. Haven't had the privilege of seeing an abundance of live black metal because a lot of these bands I'm into don't tour for various reasons. But I've been fortunate enough to have seen more than a handful and things have always been cool.

Believe it or not many of us black metal hounds are in it just for the music and tend to eschew much of the silly accoutrements and nonsense that can often be associated with the genre by casuals and the rock press. I'm sure there are musicians from other genres that are bad people or who have done bad things too. I find it kind of annoying that the actions of a few scumbags have tainted the sub-genre for 3 decades now and I imagine they will be tainting it for many decades to come. So many people can't look past that shit and aren't willing to even listen to the music. I've run across so many mainstream metal fans who seem to like a little something from all different metal sub-genres except for black. Their loss I say.

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I would say that many who focus on the church burnings/satanism aspect are missing the point. Do some people in the scene take that shit too serious? Of course. But black metal is confrontational by nature. It's meant to offend the norm, cross social norms/boundaries, etc. Challenge the establishment similar to crust. Christianity is a natural area to focus on. There's even a round about argument to be made that in order to be a satanist, you have to believe in god and therefore christianity. Don't know if I'm saying that the right way, but you get the idea. Just like with the Ozzy incident, the press/general public do absolutely zero background research and just focus on the sensational event which gets repeated ad nauseum and stuck in the general consciousness. Even cursory reading on most of these types of things will bring a good deal of perspective (Ozzy didn't know it was a live bat, dumbass kids trying to be edgelords doing stupid shit). Doesn't help that most involved are too young to relay their grievances in a mature or intellectual way that normal society would appreciate or maybe even understand themselves.

In my opinion, black metal gets a bad rap and people play on that to either vilify the whole scene or make it "exclusive" for those that are trve. Whenever I see a bm artist say something like "I make music for those that are trve black metal", I immediately dismiss them as bullshit. I am okay with the satanism, folk/indigenous belief, whatever you want to express in your music, but when you start throwing around that exclusionary shit I can no longer take you seriously.

I don't want to click on something labeled black metal only to find it's some post-shoegaze techno garbage. That said, I don't think rules should be carved in stone somewhere on high. It's up to each person's interpretation. Just had this conversation with a buddy this weekend. We got in a beer induced discussion about hair metal and I posed the question "what's the best hair metal band of all time?" while listening to Ratt. I never considered Ratt as hair metal. At least not the first 2. My answer by the way was Dokken, he said Motley Crue. But then it was on to "is this band hair metal?". WASP? Tesla? Skid Row? Led down a pretty deep rabbit hole that ventured into Southern rock and Jam bands (are the Allman Brothers southern rock or jam?). Anyway, many of our answers differed. Point being, it's not always clear cut. Rules are fine if they help you classify something, but they shouldn't be so restrictive that they prevent people from making or enjoying the music itself. I'm not a black metal fan, I'm a metal fan. Regardless of the classification, if it's good shit, it's good shit. Wanna trash or endorse your local dictator? Fine, just make sure the riffs are on point.

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18 hours ago, Balor said:

At least that stuff lives up to some (albeit stupid) "kvlt" status!  I was thinking more of people who reemerge out of the past to embarrass themselves (as a certain underground musician did on a different forum I am on).

Balor knows all😉good to hear from you. Ok didn't know that about the un named black metal kvlt musician embarrassing themselves years later. I still embarrass myself  but at least I don't advocate burning buildings down.  When one of the members of emperor apologized for the church burnings they once supported. I decided to get some of  there albums which I've liked. I would have got them alot earlier but that stuff put me off. I remember reading articles from 1990s and thinking not for me.  Politics and music for me don't mix. 

 

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On 4/4/2022 at 2:08 PM, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I think a psychologist could probably explain exactly why some of us 'elitists' take comfort in music that ticks the right boxes and doesn't push too many boundaries. I know I don't need every band to reinvent the wheel and indeed most of the time when bands have tried I haven't liked the results. Don't want my boundaries pushed. Which isn't to say I think that's the right path for everyone, but it certainly works for me. I can totally understand why others say they find certain music stale & boring, derivative and predictable. Meat & potatoes. Static, Doc would say. Those things just happen to be positives for me. Fortunately we're so spoiled for choice these days that there are plenty of bands on each side, either doing what they're told & sticking to the plan, or being more adventurous & experimental. Forward thinking as I've heard it described. So that's a win for music lovers in general I suppose.

As far as the black metal live shows, I haven't experienced anything like what you've described, sweets gobbler. No church burnings, no animal blood or sacrifice, no violence, beatings, rape or torture, no Satanic rituals, I've just seen black metal bands that have taken the stage and played their music. Not saying some of this stuff might not happen some where some time, it just hasn't ever happened anywhere I've ever been. Haven't had the privilege of seeing an abundance of live black metal because a lot of these bands I'm into don't tour for various reasons. But I've been fortunate enough to have seen more than a handful and things have always been cool.

Believe it or not many of us black metal hounds are in it just for the music and tend to eschew much of the silly accoutrements and nonsense that can often be associated with the genre by casuals and the rock press. I'm sure there are musicians from other genres that are bad people or who have done bad things too. I find it kind of annoying that the actions of a few scumbags have tainted the sub-genre for 3 decades now and I imagine they will be tainting it for many decades to come. So many people can't look past that shit and aren't willing to even listen to the music. I've run across so many mainstream metal fans who seem to like a little something from all different metal sub-genres except for black. Their loss I say.

My best friend got attacked after a rap concert some years back. He was walking home when he got attacked by some rap fans. The intervention of others saved serious damage and possibly his life. After that I always try to do some research to the concerts I'm going to. If I'm in doubt I don't go. It's probably bit silly because I agree with you. There's bad people who listen to every genre of music.  So I'd say I was probably treating black metal fans a bit harshly. Painting all with the same brush is not right.its the same when people assume all heavy metal fans are this one stereotype when there not. Obviously there's a few in that mould but even there not as black and white as what people assume.  Thanks though for the amazing response. Spot on dude at explaining your thinking👍 your right about black metal. It's other people's loss for not  listening to it. Maybe it's just too extreme for most people.  I'm the extreme one in my family so of course I like black metal somewhat.   And my wife thinks I waste too much time on this forum. But what an interesting discussion that's taking place😁 

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I've only been to a couple black metal specific metal shows and they were probably the least sketchy/dangerous metal shows I've been to. Mostly just people standing around with their arms folded, no moshing, very little headbanging. I'm sure plenty of the people there were anti-social, edgy weirdos but as long as you just don't talk to them they're relatively harmless.

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One night after a Morbid Angel gig a mate and I ended up in an Aboriginal Community house.We still don't remember it how it happened but we were maggoted and trying to walk home along the beach it was only about an 8k walk but we'd run out of money for a taxi. Along the way there was an old 4 storey house that the government let the local Aboriginal community live in, it was the kind of place where there was always lights on, more than likely a party going on and always music. For some reason we just walked up to the door, a couple of long haired country hicks, pissed off their heads. This was nearly 30 year ago where although they lived in our cities the many Aboriginals didn't get along great with the white fella and many white fellas still resented them for getting so many government hand outs.

Apparently we told them we liked their music and wanted to come in and for some strange reason they let us in. We spent the next four or five hours drinking their booze, smoking their weed and having a rawkus old time with these guys, it was brilliant, not quite Morbid Angel but it was still great. When we eventually got out of the place and lobbed at the mates Aunty's place where we were supposed to be sleeping everyone was shocked, not just that the Aboriginal folk let us in but actually let us out the following morning. It was a great night!

Not sure how that fits in with rules given that we were metal heads, there was no metal music and we were white fellas in a black community drinking booze and smoking weed. But shit if those are the rules what a crappy world we live in :P

 

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12 hours ago, zackflag said:

I've only been to a couple black metal specific metal shows and they were probably the least sketchy/dangerous metal shows I've been to. Mostly just people standing around with their arms folded, no moshing, very little headbanging. I'm sure plenty of the people there were anti-social, edgy weirdos but as long as you just don't talk to them they're relatively harmless.

I have never once felt unsafe at a metal gig (or any gig really) in my life. Heshers get a bad rap. Some of the nicest, friendliest, chill people I've ever run across. As my pops used to say, just show people respect no matter where you are and you'll be fine. Works great except in the most extreme instances where you are really in the wrong place. I've been in some fairly sketch places in my time and found the majority of people to be kind and friendly if you approach them with respect and politeness.

I would add - don't try to be someone you are not. I've found that metalheads really do like to share and educate newbs that show real appreciation for the music and an eagerness to learn. Poseurs and try-hards, not so much.

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I got sucker punched pretty bad at a Queensryche show when I was 14. My friends had already left so I was by myself, just singing along with the last tune, and I felt something cold on the side of my face and then I realized I was on the ground, and then everything started to hurt. Big stadium show, just some rednecks blowing off steam I suppose. I blamed myself for a long time, but when I got older I saw it for what it was - assholes beating up a kid for fun. Not at all what I would call a "violent" show, but that's the worst I ever got hurt at a concert.

In my later teens there were a few shows where people would come just to stir shit up, the kind of guys who would sneak spiked bracelets in and wrap them around their fists in the pit. When I was living in NYC in the early 2000s a lot of the basement shows turned violent because of the "dancing crews" - basically morons doing martial arts moves on anyone who happened to be standing nearby, throwing chairs, punching holes in walls, etc. There were also some bruisers who would occasionally turn up just to push people around. One time we had to clear out because someone apparently pulled a knife on one of those guys when they got sick of his shit.

Every single case of violence I've ever seen at a show was because of some very small number of assholes who came looking for a fight. Stay away from the assholes.

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When we were doing gigs licensed venues were always the biggest problems. Of course it was a double edged sword since licensed venues were also the biggest pay cheques because in licensed venues bands not only got a taking of the door but they also got paid a percentage for the alcohol sold. But not every licensed venue was a problem, and it wasn't just metal that suffered. It's easy to suggest alcohol or drugs causes a lot of problems at gigs but as Father A says it's a small number of arseholes that cause the problems, and that problem is often exaggerated when alcohol and drugs are involved.

In fact if there is one rule for metal it's a rule written by the media that says they will report badly about any small amount of violence, or problems at a metal gig and blow it out of proportion where they can, but will ignore the same trouble as much as they can when it's the latest pop artist or band related.

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On 4/4/2022 at 3:48 PM, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

Balor knows all😉good to hear from you. Ok didn't know that about the un named black metal kvlt musician embarrassing themselves years later. I still embarrass myself  but at least I don't advocate burning buildings down.  When one of the members of emperor apologized for the church burnings they once supported. I decided to get some of  there albums which I've liked. I would have got them alot earlier but that stuff put me off. I remember reading articles from 1990s and thinking not for me.  Politics and music for me don't mix. 

 

Indeed, my knowledge is boundless!  haha

Yeah, it was other drama that I will not bring here.  The situation was pretty much a guy from the mid 1990s underground turning up after a few decades of nothing and then starting to argue with the few people that still talk about his music (for no reason).  Not just "embarrassing" kvlt posturing, but actual stupidity/immaturity from someone who had received longstanding respect in some circles.

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On 4/4/2022 at 7:20 AM, Dead1 said:

 

 

 

Sure there's rules on how they're meant to sound.

I mean if I said following song is thrash metal, am I right or wrong?

 

 

 

It's actually not restricting, rather than categorisation.

If something has growled vocals, distorted guitars, insane drums with lots of blast beats it's most likely death metal or grind core.

 

If it's a clean pretty vocalist singing over catchy dance rhythms, then it's certainly not death metal or grindcore is it?  It's pop of some sort.

 

It doesn't mean the pop guy can't exist and needs to be banished to a gulag in Siberia.  It just means he's not playing death metal or grind core whilst the death/grindcore band isn't a radio friendly pop act.

 

Your right if there's no elements of metal in the music it's not metal.absoloutely.  Surely New metal sub genres can include other music in them as long as they mix it with a healthy amount of typical metal sections.  

 

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2 hours ago, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

Your right if there's no elements of metal in the music it's not metal.absoloutely.  Surely New metal sub genres can include other music in them as long as they mix it with a healthy amount of typical metal sections.  

 

Well of course.  My point is more about categorisation. 

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On 4/7/2022 at 5:10 PM, Balor said:

Indeed, my knowledge is boundless!  haha

Yeah, it was other drama that I will not bring here.  The situation was pretty much a guy from the mid 1990s underground turning up after a few decades of nothing and then starting to argue with the few people that still talk about his music (for no reason).  Not just "embarrassing" kvlt posturing, but actual stupidity/immaturity from someone who had received longstanding respect in some circles.

Balor you've boudless knowledge, you know it😉

That's disappointing that said musician was arguing with fans discussing his work. Especially all the stupid and immature comments,  definitely a case of liking there music but being disappointed by there personality. My uncle used to write Hollywood scripts and he liked the money but not working with the stars. Well he disliked working with most of them☺️

 

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Metal has specialized status stats, they are considered very important in the game. Metal can be restricted by rules and certain conditions in special events. Metal can be obtained through normal playing, but if the event restricts you, you may refer to Quests or Events for more information about how to get it. The Anti-Metal Phenomenon is a phenomenon where a person of the Metal elemental type becomes ill or even dies because of their own Metal energy. Death caused by (promo link removed) is almost always instant and leaves little evidence behind. 😐

 

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20 minutes ago, RogerDavid said:

Metal has specialized status stats, they are considered very important in the game. Metal can be restricted by rules and certain conditions in special events. Metal can be obtained through normal playing, but if the event restricts you, you may refer to Quests or Events for more information about how to get it. The Anti-Metal Phenomenon is a phenomenon where a person of the Metal elemental type becomes ill or even dies because of their own Metal energy. Death caused by   <unrelated link removed> is almost always instant and leaves little evidence behind. 😐

 

Metal doesn't need to be restricted by rules but the first rule of business is don't make the business you own or work for look stupid, and you've failed that.

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