40 year anniversary of extreme metal

[GoatmasterGeneral]

Even as shitty a band as they were, Venom was more influential to & responsible for the birth of extreme metal than the objectively far superior band Death was. Chuck Schuldiner and Death generally get 99% of the credit for the invention of death metal, even though metal historians like us are well aware there were other bands and musicians in the mid 80's who contributed to building that bridge from thrash to death as well. Venom did what they did all by themselves a few years earlier, there was no precedent in 1980/81 for their rough raw sound. They are the sole originators of black metal, no other band even has a legit claim. The fact that just going by musicianship they suck ass (imho) does not take away from what they accomplished. Musicianship is not the most important quality in a metal band, not even in the top 5 if you ask me. Decades later I personally find Celtic Frost to be the all-around most influential metal band of all time as far as extreme death and black metal are concerned, but Mr. Fischer himself will tell you that when he picked up a guitar and started Hellhammer he was essentially trying to emulate those proper tossers Venom. So when people compare Venom & Death it's not because they have anything at all in common other than both being foundational cornerstones of their respective genres.

[Sheol]

On 12/25/2021 at 12:54 AM, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

I don't agree with what Sheol has said either. I've only really listened to spiritual healing. What an album. Just gets better the more I hear it. I like that record alot as there's just so much going on and variety too. Probably should listen to the other albums too as I like prog so later albums I may like. I've heard people say Chuck was the first to sing the way he did so part of what Sheol said could be right.  

Well I don't equate them when it comes to musical ability, songwriting or image, that would be quite mean to Death haha. But they're in the same category for me with foundational bands I've never taken to.

[zackflag]

Venom were most certainly NOT the sole originators of black metal. Influential? Undeniably, but giving them all the credit is historical revisionism taken to the extreme. Being an influencer isn't necessarily synonymous with being a founder, especially when you consider that 99.9% of Black metal as we know it today sounds nothing like Venom at all. Bathory were equally, if not moreso, as foundational and influential as Venom ever were.

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 12/27/2021 at 1:24 PM, Sheol said:

Well I don't equate them when it comes to musical ability, songwriting or image, that would be quite mean to Death haha. But they're in the same category for me with foundational bands I've never taken to.

Ok fair enough, there music took me a few listens to really take to it.

 Was death metal named after them ? 🤔

On 12/27/2021 at 1:24 PM, Sheol said:

Well I don't equate them when it comes to musical ability, songwriting or image, that would be quite mean to Death haha. But they're in the same category for me with foundational bands I've never taken to.

Ok fair enough, there music took me a few listens to really take to it.

 Was death metal named after them ? 🤔

[GoatmasterGeneral]

On 12/27/2021 at 1:49 PM, zackflag said:

Venom were most certainly NOT the sole originators of black metal. Influential? Undeniably, but giving them all the credit is historical revisionism taken to the extreme. Being an influencer isn't necessarily synonymous with being a founder, especially when you consider that 99.9% of Black metal as we know it today sounds nothing like Venom at all. Bathory were equally, if not moreso, as foundational and influential as Venom ever were.

Bathory just as influential? Arguably, but not quite imho. Foundational and more directly responsible for the 2nd wave template? Undeniably. The better band? To suggest otherwise would be laughable. But coming a few years after Venom, where do you honestly think Mr. Forsberg got the idea for Bathory from? He got it from Venom. Even named his band after one of Venom's "hits" from the 1982 album entitled Black Metal. When Venom hit the scene in 1980 there had never been any music that sounded even remotely like that before. In a world where it's accepted that musical artists borrow from and are inspired by one another and jump on bandwagons Venom, love 'em or hate 'em, were truly original.

And as I've already said I can't stand Venom, I think they fucking suck. I don't have any of their records and I'd be perfectly happy if I never had to listen to them ever again. I might check something of theirs out on the Tube once every decade or so just to refresh my memory on how awful they truly were. But at this point 40 years down the road I could forgo that. Meanwhile I love and respect Bathory, absolutely consider Quothorn to be one of the all time greats. I have several Bathory records and they still get played. I would also put Celtic Frost in that group of eminently influential 80's artists who were largely responsible for the advancement of black metal as well (without actually being black metal themselves.)

But I've got to give credit where credit is due. Venom came first. Not by a few months but by a few years. Formed in 1979, Venom's first demo was April 1980, the same month as Iron Maiden's debut album. Hellhammer formed in 1982, first demo out in 1983. Bathory formed in 1983, first compilation appearance was 2 tracks on "Scandinavian Metal Attack" in 1984. Even as shit as Venom are, and no matter how much we might wish it wasn't so, there would be no CF or Bathory as we know them today without the trail blazed by Venom. Cronos might be little more than a meme to be laughed at these days and afaic it's always been hard to take them seriously, but that doesn't change the fact that Venom were game changers. To dismiss the boys from Newcastle now all these many decades later and try to claim that others who were directly influenced by them were actually the true originators just because we don't like them would be the act of revisionist history. 

[zackflag]

2 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

To dismiss the boys from Newcastle now all these many decades later and try to claim that others who were directly influenced by them were actually the true originators just because we don't like them would be the act of revisionist history. 

Well I'm not trying to say who the true originator of black metal actually is because I don't believe the true originator of the genre was a singular band, but rather.... several.

Humor me for a second and consider this: If Venom didn't have an album called "Black Metal", would they still be considered the originators of black metal? Like, say the music on that album was exactly the same in every way except for the album title, are they still the first black metal band? I think the conversation on Venom, first-wave black metal and who the first ever black metal band truly was would be very different if it weren't for the fact that Venom's 1982 milestone was titled just that. The line between Venom being the originator and merely an influencer of the genre is a very thin one and it seems to hinge on the fact that Venom had an album called "black metal" and thus coined the term.

Many people would probably still consider Venom to be the founders of the genre were this the case and perhaps you are one them, which is fair. I'd put them in the "influencer" category myself and I don't think this diminishes their legacy in any way but for my money, there isn't quite enough actual blackened sounding metal in Venom's music to warrant giving them the title of "sole creators" of the genre, as influential as they may be. Hell, Metal Archives has them labeled as "NWOBHM/Black/Speed Metal", which I'd consider more appropriate.

The reason I give Bathory a little more credit is because, as you said yourself, they were more foundational in establishing the 2nd wave template (along with Celtic Frost). And if we're being realistic, the second wave sound has, by and large, gone on to define what most people know and think of as "black metal" for the better part of three decades. I am generalizing a bit, I'll admit, but there's no denying that second wave bm takes up a huge part of the musical zeitgeist of the genre. Meanwhile Venom's particular brand of black metal, if you wanna call it that, has largely been bred out of the genre for many years now, save for a small resurgence of first-wave traditionalist bands.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

I listen to an awful lot of 2nd wave style black metal, by far more of it than any other single metal sub-genre, and quite possibly as much or more of it than all the other metal sub-genres I listen to combined. It's not necessarily my most favorite sub-genre, but it just seems like there's more of it being made that I come across that strikes me as being really good than any single other thing so I go with it. But just because the 2nd wave sound dominates the black metal scene now as it has for the last 30 years that doesn't mean that it's the only kind of black metal there is floating around out there, or that it's the only form of black metal that matters.

I've had more than a few people try to tell me over the years that only bands playing in the 2nd wave style truly count as black metal and I have to strongly disagree with that. There is still the first wave to be accounted for, and not just the 80's bands but plenty of newer bands that have chosen to go more in that direction. There aren't nearly as many of them out there as there are 2nd wavers, but when I find the good ones they can often really hit the spot for me in a way that most 2nd wavers can't. And then there is the Blasphemy school of black metal, bestial or war metal or whatever you want to call it as well. Then you have the whole orthodox/dissonant wing of the black metal mansion, the DSO wing if you will which I'm really not into. There are the Liturgy/Krallice type bands which have staked their own (disputed) claims on the outskirts of the black metal territories as well, but I'd rather not get into that whole debate now. There's progressive black, depressive black, atmo-black and folk/pagan black and then don't forget you also have black/death, much of which can often lean more towards death metal, but a fair ammount of it can be considered to fall more under the black metal umbrella as well. So I really can't get aligned with the mistaken belief that to be considered black metal everything has to sound exactly the fucking same like Darkthrone or Mayhem or Immortal. That's only one facet, albeit the largest and highest profile one, but just one facet of the amazing jewel we call black metal.

So for the purposes of our friendly little debate, what I'm getting at is that it really doesn't matter that Venom doesn't sound exactly like all of our favorite 2nd wave bands, for three main reasons. (three, unless I can think of some more) First is that so many of the original 2nd wave bands in question don't sound all that much alike to begin with. The second is as I've just said black metal, like basically any sub-genre, doesn't all have to sound exactly the same. There can be some variation. If a band deviates too far from the commonly accepted template a new sub-genre might need to be coined, but that kind of pedantry is for each listener to decide for themselves I suppose. I know it tends to confuse people when bands in a given sub-genre don't all sound exactly alike, but that's not my problem it's theirs. In this case of black metal specifically what I'm saying is that there are many more elements and qualities and prerequisites that combine to define a band as black metal that are more important than just tremolos. Black metal needs to sound in some way evil, harsh and rough. Sonically or lyrically or visually or all three. There is some ugliness and nastiness required (either pseudo-serious or completely tongue in cheek) and this is more intrinsic to black metal than the tremolos. If we can't agree on that point at least, then I'm probably wasting my breath. 

The other main reason is that when genres evolve and morph into other new sub-genres, as sub-genres will sometimes do, there will always be bands that get caught in-between as it were. New sub-genres aren't created overnight, it's a transition. Bands we think of as highly influential originators that have pushed the envelope too far to be considered by some to still be solidly part of the old familiar sub-genre, but at a time when the newly created sub-genre hasn't got enough participants to be clearly defined yet. Venom is one of those bands. I know things are somewhat different nowadays than they were back in the early 80's when things were moving at such a rapid pace that at times it almost seemed like there were new metal sub-genres being created every month. The early/mid 80's was an exciting time to be a young metalhead. The majority of the metal sub-genres we know and love and take for granted today were all created back during the 1980's.

All the 1st wave 80's black metal bands sound different to us than their 90's 2nd wave counterparts, which is why the term 2nd wave was coined in the first place. The first wavers still retained some similarities to their peers and to the older bands that had influenced them, but they all pushed the envelope far enough to set themselves apart from everything that had come before, so much so that many of us believed we needed a new name for what they were doing. But obviously we had no way to know what black metal would ultimately become back in the early 80's. But still bands like Venom, Hellhammer, Celtic Frost, Bathory, Sarcofago, Bulldozer, early Sodom and yes even Mercyful Fate are considered the 1st wave of black metal for a reason. They were the in-betweeners, bands that still had one foot in what had come before while they were clearly doing something very different and pushing the boundaries.

So my point isn't that Venom = Darkthrone/Mayhem. I can obviously hear the difference. You wanna call them part of the nwobhm or blackened speed metal or something I have no problem with that, because they were all of those things. My point is that neither the 1st or 2nd waves of black metal were created in a vacuum. All these bands were formed by metalheads that were influenced by other bands that had come before them as well as being influenced by the other bands evolving all around them in their own generation of bands. You can't get from point A to point E without going through points B, C and D. You can't get from Chuck Berry or the Beatles or Zeppelin straight to Darkthrone or even straight to Metallica without going through some other stops on the way first. Stops like Sabbath, Priest, Maiden, Motorhead, Discharge, Venom, Slayer, Celtic Frost, Bathory, and Mercyful Fate. And as far as the evolution specifically of black metal goes (which is where my musical history interest lies) Venom was the band that made that major policy shift needed to come up with the rough evil sound that had never been so much as dreamed of before then. Hellhammer/CF and Bathory were instrumental to the creation of black metal too, but they were bandwagon hoppers following Venom's lead.

It's really not just because they had a song called Black Metal. That song/album title might have influenced the eventual name of the sub-genre we now know as black metal, but black metal as a concept would still exist even if we would have ended up calling it something else. Now I would say you could probably get from the Beatles to black metal without going through every single other band I named above. You could probably skip one or two or three of them and still make your way there, except for Venom. Without Venom there simply is no black metal. If Venom had never formed would someone else have come along and taken heavy metal in that rough evil direction? Probably, a wee bit later maybe but almost certainly. But that would just be speculation, and there's no sense debating what could have been, in our current dimensional reality it happened to be Venom that filled that role. 

And it's the same deal with death metal, there were in-between bands that served to bridge the gap from thrash to death. The earliest death metal bands from 1989 generally sound a lot thrashier than what we typically think of as the quintessential death metal sound of today. One could say that there would be no death metal without bands like Slayer & Possessed, even though Slayer & Possessed themselves were thrash metal bands. But thrash metal bands whose sub-genre status gets debated frequently because they were the in-betweeners needed to get from point A to point D(eath). 

 

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 12/7/2021 at 2:48 PM, GoatmasterGeneral said:

You know it's funny I never liked Venom. I remember 40 years ago hearing on the tv news about how they were this big sensation in the UK and how they were Satanic and Evil and all the kids were queuing up to go see their shows. I remember hearing little snippets of their music on the actual nightly news programs, but only for a few brief seconds. Intrigued, I grabbed their album with the goat head on it at the used record store one day for like $2 at a time when it was still a new release. There were several copies available, seems a bunch of people had traded theirs back in already. I got it home and put it on and my friend and I just laughed 'cause it was just so fucking bad, sounded like they were out of tune. The next time I went to the record store I traded it back in myself.

But the thing is they did basically start what has become known as extreme metal almost single handedly, (Motorhead had a hand in it too) even though they could barely even play their instruments back then. So while I still can't even listen to Venom themselves, I pretty much worship every band that they've directly influenced. 80's bands like Celtic Frost and Bathory and Blasphemy that came right out and said they were inspired by Venom and now also the plethora of more recent "goat metal" and black metal bands that all trace their roots directly back to Venom and the first wave of black metal.

So all hail Venom and the 40th anniversary of extreme, black and Satanic metal. I'd wish for another 40 years of Satanic filth but I won't be around to hear it in 40 more years.

We don't agree on much but I don't get venom at all either. I won't say they duck because there held in very high esteem by alot of fans.i don't like it and I just avoid it. It never sounded good to me and devoid of anything I like. I'm not a fan of the riffs, production, the hooks, the singing. None of it.  I will leave it for others to enjoy. 

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 12/7/2021 at 10:15 AM, Dead1 said:

40 years ago Venom pretty much invented extreme metal with the release of Welcome To Hell.  Not even Motorhead or Iron Maiden compared to this album in terms of extremity, bombast and shock.  It literally kicks off the ultimate Cold War arms race as to who can be the most extreme band on the planet. 

 

Thrash, death, black and grind can all trace important roots to this album.

 

https://youtu.be/dVFBDE6Ms8w

 

After listening to you tube studio recordings I was not impressed. Maybe it was a rubbish upload.

Changed my mind. After hearing welcome to hell live. I was blown away how amazing it is. To my ears Mettalica definitely were inspired by this for there kill em all album. Yeah alot of metal bands are fans of venom and cite them as an influence. I can see why. Although the clothes are bit weird for me at least.  There extreme I will give them that. Music is metal as hell to me at least. Venom is very appropriate name. ⚔️🥊⚡💪🔥

 

On 12/7/2021 at 10:15 AM, Dead1 said:

 

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 12/7/2021 at 11:55 PM, Dead1 said:

Metallica guys were often spotted in Venom t-shirts.

 

 

 

 

Like most pioneering albums, Welcome To Hell was certainly not perfect.  But then if you think about it even first Black Sabbath album drops the ball on the second half (mainly an extended jam cause they had no material), Possessed (Seven Churches) , Napalm Death (Scum) or Carcass with the shit sounding Reeks of Putrefaction.

 

Personally I enjoy Welcome To Hell.  It's got some great tracks - "In League With Satan," "Live Like An Angel," "Poison," "One Thousand Days in Sodom," "Welcome To Hell," "Angel Dust" and "Poison."

 

I am a fan of Venom though including some of their later 1980s and early 1990s material such as Prime Evil.  I also enjoyed From The Very Depths though was disappointed my CD wouldn't play a lot of the time and got rid of it.

Dead thanks for sharing these. Lars is still wearing venom shirts. There's a recent shot of him in one in metal hammer. If only they'd do venom style songs again 

There was an article in metal hammer 🔨 magazine. Mettalica toured with venom on there first European tour if memory serves me right. Venom got Mettalica to stop the post show dressing room smash-ups. I was surprised venom were so well behaved

Out of interest have you been to a venom gig?

 

[AlSymerz]

There is another Venom video from the early to mid 80's with Slayer and Exodus (Combat Tour from memory) where Venom were not so well behaved if the talkie bit's between the videos are to be believed.

 

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 12/8/2021 at 3:41 AM, Balor said:

I have only began to listen to Venom this year, but I like a lot of it.  "Don't Burn the Witch" and "Seven Gates of Hell" are current favorites.

Balor how are you. 

Venom I did not like initially. It sounded like motorhead music and I was expecting more. However after more plays and especially after watching there live stuff on YouTube. Got to say it's very very good. I reckon it takes metal on to a new level of extreme definitely and it definitely sounds fantastic when it works. 

 Nightmare I liked,welcome to hell of course, I love bloodlust track so thrashy and intense.  Have you got a favourite venom era or album. 

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

@blaaacdoommmmfan did you ever listen to the Tony Dolan era albums of Venom and Venom Inc - Ave? Those are some of my favourite albums to listen to.

[Balor]

On 3/8/2022 at 3:22 PM, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

Balor how are you. 

Venom I did not like initially. It sounded like motorhead music and I was expecting more. However after more plays and especially after watching there live stuff on YouTube. Got to say it's very very good. I reckon it takes metal on to a new level of extreme definitely and it definitely sounds fantastic when it works. 

 Nightmare I liked,welcome to hell of course, I love bloodlust track so thrashy and intense.  Have you got a favourite venom era or album. 

Doing alright, thanks!  More active on some other forums now, but I still pop in every once in a while.  You?

It was sort of like that with Venom for me too.  When I was first getting into black metal, none of the first wave stuff really clicked with me.  But then, just like you, I happened to watch some Venom live videos and loved what I heard.  I haven't spend much time with the album material, though.

[Megatokyo]

On 12/7/2021 at 9:48 AM, GoatmasterGeneral said:

You know it's funny I never liked Venom. I remember 40 years ago hearing on the tv news about how they were this big sensation in the UK and how they were Satanic and Evil and all the kids were queuing up to go see their shows. I remember hearing little snippets of their music on the actual nightly news programs, but only for a few brief seconds. Intrigued, I grabbed their album with the goat head on it at the used record store one day for like $2 at a time when it was still a new release. There were several copies available, seems a bunch of people had traded theirs back in already. I got it home and put it on and my friend and I just laughed 'cause it was just so fucking bad, sounded like they were out of tune. The next time I went to the record store I traded it back in myself.

Venom are good entertainers, but terrible performers. Their early live shows sound like complete ass.

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 3/9/2022 at 1:38 AM, H34VYM3T4LD4V3 said:

@blaaacdoommmmfan did you ever listen to the Tony Dolan era albums of Venom and Venom Inc - Ave? Those are some of my favourite albums to listen to.

Not heard these. Will need to check them out. 👍

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 3/10/2022 at 4:55 AM, Balor said:

Doing alright, thanks!  More active on some other forums now, but I still pop in every once in a while.  You?

It was sort of like that with Venom for me too.  When I was first getting into black metal, none of the first wave stuff really clicked with me.  But then, just like you, I happened to watch some Venom live videos and loved what I heard.  I haven't spend much time with the album material, though.

Cool that your keeping busy even if on other forums. I'm doing ok really. Obviously the Ukraine situation is bit of an unknown and being in UK how will that affect me. Hopefully I won't be called up. Paintball is one thing. War is another. 

Yeah it's amazing how it can just click. I played bloodlust live to the mechanic at work who is a keen musician. It was too full on for him. He also discounted the motorhead comparison which I mentioned as theres a similarity to my ears at least.As he said they had more of a tune to there music whilst venom were just more extreme in approach. Good to hear from you

 

 

 

 

 

[Balor]

3 hours ago, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

Cool that your keeping busy even if on other forums. I'm doing ok really. Obviously the Ukraine situation is bit of an unknown and being in UK how will that affect me. Hopefully I won't be called up. Paintball is one thing. War is another. 

Yeah it's amazing how it can just click. I played bloodlust live to the mechanic at work who is a keen musician. It was too full on for him. He also discounted the motorhead comparison which I mentioned as theres a similarity to my ears at least.As he said they had more of a tune to there music whilst venom were just more extreme in approach. Good to hear from you

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that is in the back of my head too.  I can plan my year as much as I want, but I still had to sign up for selective service!

[H34VYM3T4LD4V3]

15 hours ago, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

Not heard these. Will need to check them out. 👍

They are definitely worth your time, Prime Evil, Temples of Ice, and The Wastelands are all very underrated in my opinion although Prime Evil is pretty popular. And Venom Inc. (Mantas the Guitarist from Venom and Tony Dolan the replacement singer on those 3 mentioned venom albums, and Abaddon the original drummer.) released “Avé” a great album!! Like venom prime evil era but on steroids.

and Venom Inc are supposed to be releasing a new album this year! So i’m looking forward to that (War Machine on drums instead now though.)

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:54 PM, H34VYM3T4LD4V3 said:

They are definitely worth your time, Prime Evil, Temples of Ice, and The Wastelands are all very underrated in my opinion although Prime Evil is pretty popular. And Venom Inc. (Mantas the Guitarist from Venom and Tony Dolan the replacement singer on those 3 mentioned venom albums, and Abaddon the original drummer.) released “Avé” a great album!! Like venom prime evil era but on steroids.

and Venom Inc are supposed to be releasing a new album this year! So i’m looking forward to that (War Machine on drums instead now though.)

Good to hear from you heavy metal d,

Venoms names are very metal I reckon. War machine, demolition man, war maniac and er Jesus Christ otherwise known as Clive 😁

The Tony Dolan stuff is well put together from what I heard but I'd say it's better constructed and less rough around the edges. I still prefer the early live stuff.

I reckon theyd be good live. Have you seen them live

 

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

I've liked listening to welcome to hell and black metal more than I thought I would. I can hear other bands they influenced too like slayer. Apparently Kerry was big fan of first two records and was so pleased when they toured with venom  early in there career