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Ritualization - Hema Ignis Necros. Blackened DM from France. Digging this one.

A comment on the Weregoat art. They are known for this now and I am not a fan. I don't mind cartoonish violence and some gore when it is purely fantastical. Sexual violence, however, is extremely real and not fun or subversive or whatever they are going for. I am not sure what sexual hang-ups these guys have but they should probably get therapy for it.

"But its just art". Sure, ok. Its shitty, juvenile art. If I draw a picture of a bunch of kids getting shot in a school I guess that's art too, hooray for me. If its tongue in cheek then its poorly done. This kind of shock value schtick is easy, brainless and diminishes any credibility to their music, which I happen to like. Not trying to rant on this all day, but it should be mentioned.

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47 minutes ago, Hungarino said:

Ritualization - Hema Ignis Necros. Blackened DM from France. Digging this one.

A comment on the Weregoat art. They are known for this now and I am not a fan. I don't mind cartoonish violence and some gore when it is purely fantastical. Sexual violence, however, is extremely real and not fun or subversive or whatever they are going for. I am not sure what sexual hang-ups these guys have but they should probably get therapy for it.

"But its just art". Sure, ok. Its shitty, juvenile art. If I draw a picture of a bunch of kids getting shot in a school I guess that's art too, hooray for me. If its tongue in cheek then its poorly done. This kind of shock value schtick is easy, brainless and diminishes any credibility to their music, which I happen to like. Not trying to rant on this all day, but it should be mentioned.

Is a bit over the top. I don't really pay attention to album art (put them right up with lyrics, just don't care), but I have to say I agree that it's a bit much with these guys. Going to the same well every time suggests something a little more problematic. I mean, isn't there anything else you can come up with?

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1 hour ago, Hungarino said:

A comment on the Weregoat art. They are known for this now and I am not a fan. I don't mind cartoonish violence and some gore when it is purely fantastical. Sexual violence, however, is extremely real and not fun or subversive or whatever they are going for. I am not sure what sexual hang-ups these guys have but they should probably get therapy for it.

"But its just art". Sure, ok. Its shitty, juvenile art. If I draw a picture of a bunch of kids getting shot in a school I guess that's art too, hooray for me. If its tongue in cheek then its poorly done. This kind of shock value schtick is easy, brainless and diminishes any credibility to their music, which I happen to like. Not trying to rant on this all day, but it should be mentioned.

So Hungaloonie are you saying you don't mind cartoonish violence and gore when it is 'purely fantastical' but you draw the line when the cartoonish fantastical violence depicts sexual acts between make believe cartoonish characters?

I have never particularly cared for or been interested in the majority of the violence and gore that I've seen depicted in a lot of death metal cover art. I don't find it offensive, it just all seems pretty dumb and unappealing to me. I've never been interested in horror or gore of any kind. The fixation on violence and gore definitely played a part in keeping me away from death metal for so long.

But I don't see how this particular album cover is any different than any of the rest of that crap, or any less fantastical. No one is having any sexual violence perpetrated against them here, and no one is getting their head impaled by a sword. It's just a crude illustration chosen to represent the album title "The Devil's Lust." Extreme metal has always been full of art like this. And it is just art.

 

Best Gore Album Covers In The World (NSFL)

 

Cannibal Corpse Drummer Names Band's Most Disgusting Album Cover

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I mean it is niche I grant you, but not rare unfortunately.  The theme of deranged/half-dead/half or full goat/paranormal beings doing horrible things to women all has one consistent element in that it is males depicted as doing it.  Would it be any better if it the tables were flipped and we had women figures gleefully hacking man parts of prone and/or restrained males?  Not really, it would just be kind of refreshing.  I tend to ignore this type of artwork because although I don't particularly like the concept of females constantly being portrayed as hapless victims it doesn't particularly offend me because it is so juvenile in construct.

At the end of the day there's the choice of whether to listen to it or not let alone support the artist by buying it.  15 year old me was fucking fascinated by Cannibal Corpse album covers but a) I don't need therapy (at least not for that frailty of my psyche) and b) even young, dumb and full of cum Macca needed more justification than a mutilated pair of tits on an album cover for me to part with my sparse cash.

Anyway, I listened to Weregoat earlier and my limited research shows me the drummer is also in Mournful Congregation where he is not called Sadoseducer.  His bass playing counterpart in Weregoat "Nocturnal Hellfucker" (how do you fuck hell?) is the live bassist in Incantation apparently.  Not my cup of tea musically as it turns out either.  

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13 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

So Hungaloonie are you saying you don't mind cartoonish violence and gore when it is 'purely fantastical' but you draw the line when the cartoonish fantastical violence depicts sexual acts between make believe cartoonish characters?

Yeah, I'd say that's mostly right. Depictions of zombies eating people don't make me uncomfortable. Rape combined with murder does. Does that indicate some sort of artistic value, that "sometimes art is supposed to be uncomfortable"? Nah, it just means I still have something of a conscience and modicum or decency, as well as some understanding of what such 'art' is really communicating. Call it a personal redline. Everyone has theirs, and if you don't have one that probably means you are something of a psychopath. I am not saying censor it or protest it or what not, I'm just saying when I see rape/murder portrayed my inner voice says "nope, that's fucked up". And I stand by that and honestly think I am right.

I know we have gone down these roads before, so I have to ask, what would make you uncomfortable? Like I said before, is it 'art' to depict little children getting their heads blown off in a class room (or anywhere)? Or is it just cheap shock value schtick. What if those depictions illicit feelings of agitation or arousal in someone who might be inclined to hurt children? Or in this case someone who gravitates toward resentment or even violence against woman? Sadly there is a shocking number of men who have these feelings, repressed or not. And whether or not they act on them, these images exist precisely because sexual violence is 'compelling' to a shocking number of men.

Now at this point I could go down the biological theories on why this is the case, basically that the regions of our brain that signal a mating response and a fighting response are closely related, but that's not the point really. I guess the point is that sexual violence is all too real, and even cartoonish depictions serve to sanction or even encourage it, ever so subtly, and that's not cool, man. There are proven and well known links between violent sexual imagery being an aggravating factor in those who ultimately act out in such a way. By contrast, no amount of horror imagery would illicit someone to say, turn into a zombie and eat people. Or even decide they were Jason Vorhees and head over to Crystal Lake with a machete. It is the combination of sexualized murder that starts to flip those reptilian brain switches, and flirting with that response and calling it art really and truly is taking it too far.

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1 hour ago, navybsn said:

Going to the same well every time suggests something a little more problematic. I mean, isn't there anything else you can come up with?

Does it though? I mean, I find albums that use that kind of art a bit uncomfortable to look at myself, but I can see how the band may look at it as some kind of weird brand imaging thing. I don't think it necessarily says anything about the band themselves as far as them having weird issues with women.

It is an interesting question though. Murder and even torture are also real things. What makes this any more problematic than some band cover with a dude getting strung up on meat hooks or the like?

 

9 minutes ago, Hungarino said:

Like I said before, is it 'art' to depict little children getting their heads blown off in a class room (or anywhere)? Or is it just cheap shock value schtick.

I'd say it depends a lot on the depiction...not little kids obviously, but Pearl Jams "Jeremy" video came very close to this sort of thing

 

14 minutes ago, MacabreEternal said:

Would it be any better if it the tables were flipped and we had women figures gleefully hacking man parts of prone and/or restrained males? 

Venom Prison - Animus cover art...Castrator -  No Victim cover art...no one really batted an eyelash about it

 

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3 minutes ago, SurgicalBrute said:

What makes this any more problematic than some band cover with a dude getting strung up on meat hooks or the like?

That is a valid question, but I would say pathological psychology and brain chemistry points to the combination of sex with the murder that elicits a different and more powerful reaction in men, and that's what makes it problematic. And no, obviously not everyone who sees that imagery goes and rapes and murders, duh. But there is a continuum of stimulus and response, and even minor examples should be acknowledged, and in my opinion discouraged. Just because you can try to awaken the reptilian brain response doesn't mean you should, and it certainly doesn't make you an' artist' for doing so.

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33 minutes ago, Hungarino said:

That is a valid question, but I would say pathological psychology and brain chemistry points to the combination of sex with the murder that elicits a different and more powerful reaction in men, and that's what makes it problematic.

 

And no, obviously not everyone who sees that imagery goes and rapes and murders, duh. But there is a continuum of stimulus and response, and even minor examples should be acknowledged, and in my opinion discouraged. Just because you can try to awaken the reptilian brain response doesn't mean you should, and it certainly doesn't make you an' artist' for doing so.

That's because we've been socialized over who knows how long into the view point that as a society we should protect women, and that's fine, but it's a socialization issue. In reality, the slaughter of any innocent human life is problematic, and I don't really think you (in the general sense) can make an argument about one depiction being worse than another that goes beyond a simple "this bothers me more on a personal level", and have it hold up to any real scrutiny.

As for this part of your comment...that's an absolutely massive slippery slope you're standing on. We've seen time and time again, in various art forms that their is no direct causation between art and real world violence (I'll also add, there seems to be some evidence that it isn't a direct cause of misogyny either). That being said, there is some acknowledged indication that it can create a temporary increase in aggression within the brain, but this increase is no different than what you would see in an athlete during a competition. So if we're following this idea that even minor examples should be discouraged...that doesn't stop at pictures you don't like. That goes for your music, your TV, your books, your lyrics, your movies, etc. That's a point of view I can't get behind  

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1 hour ago, Hungarino said:

Yeah, I'd say that's mostly right. Depictions of zombies eating people don't make me uncomfortable. Rape combined with murder does. Does that indicate some sort of artistic value, that "sometimes art is supposed to be uncomfortable"? Nah, it just means I still have something of a conscience and modicum or decency, as well as some understanding of what such 'art' is really communicating. Call it a personal redline. Everyone has theirs, and if you don't have one that probably means you are something of a psychopath. I am not saying censor it or protest it or what not, I'm just saying when I see rape/murder portrayed my inner voice says "nope, that's fucked up". And I stand by that and honestly think I am right.

I know we have gone down these roads before, so I have to ask, what would make you uncomfortable? Like I said before, is it 'art' to depict little children getting their heads blown off in a class room (or anywhere)? Or is it just cheap shock value schtick. What if those depictions illicit feelings of agitation or arousal in someone who might be inclined to hurt children? Or in this case someone who gravitates toward resentment or even violence against woman? Sadly there is a shocking number of men who have these feelings, repressed or not. And whether or not they act on them, these images exist precisely because sexual violence is 'compelling' to a shocking number of men.

Now at this point I could go down the biological theories on why this is the case, basically that the regions of our brain that signal a mating response and a fighting response are closely related, but that's not the point really. I guess the point is that sexual violence is all too real, and even cartoonish depictions serve to sanction or even encourage it, ever so subtly, and that's not cool, man. There are proven and well known links between violent sexual imagery being an aggravating factor in those who ultimately act out in such a way. By contrast, no amount of horror imagery would illicit someone to say, turn into a zombie and eat people. Or even decide they were Jason Vorhees and head over to Crystal Lake with a machete. It is the combination of sexualized murder that starts to flip those reptilian brain switches, and flirting with that response and calling it art really and truly is taking it too far.

"no amount of horror imagery would illicit someone to say, turn into a zombie and eat people. Or even decide they were Jason Vorhees and head over to Crystal Lake with a machete."

But how can you be so sure? I asked my 8 year old son yesterday what he wanted to be when he grows up and he thought for a second and replied "a murder killer." And he gets mad at me every year when I refuse to spend $70 to buy him a rubber Michael Meyers mask with lifelike hair at the Halloween store. I did get him the white Jason Vorhees hockey mask which he marked up and the $12 plastic machete, although to my knowledge he hasn't chopped anyone up with it yet. Where he gets this shit from I don't know as I don't partake in horror films and I have no interest in anything of that nature. Other 8 year olds are into K-pop, he's into a Korean zombie apocalypse series called All of Us Are Dead. 

Idk man, I guess because crudely illustrated depictions of sexualized violence & murder don't flip my reptilian switches, I tend to assume that most normal people (like you and me and I'll assume everyone else on the board here) who find sexual violence abhorrent won't be having their switches flipped either. I believe most of us can view these types of images in the context of juvenile art intended to shock. I'm not shocked or titillated by this stuff, and it doesn't really disturb me because I don't take it too seriously or pay that much attention to it. While in real life, acts of sexual violence far tamer than the one Weregoat chose for their album cover would absolutely disgust and enrage me.

I would guess (although I have no data whatsoever to back this assumption up) that most men who do commit acts of sexual violence and who are sexually aroused by the act of murder in real life have probably not been directly inspired by extreme metal album cover art. Can't say for sure that's true, but I'd be willing to bet money the percentage is pretty small. I think it's just a mental defect that some people have and thankfully most of us don't. I think most people have had some dark, or even sick thoughts on occasion but the overwhelming majority of us would never act on them nor would we even want to. Some thoughts are just thoughts. I just can't take that leap with you to believe that cartoonish depictions of sexual violence serve to sanction or even encourage it. I really think it's just bad art.

I think the reason almost all sexual violence is perpetrated against women by men and not the other way around is fairly obvious given the nature of human libidos and the mechanics and processes involved in the human act of sex. Overall it seems that virtually all serial rapist/murderers have been men and I don't see this changing. But that doesn't mean all men have these types of fantasies and are a danger to society. Not even the ones who choose to listem to Cannibal and Weregoat.

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42 minutes ago, SurgicalBrute said:

don't really think you (in the general sense) can make an argument about one depiction being worse than another that goes beyond a simple "this bothers me more on a personal level", and have it hold up to any real scrutiny

My argument is not only "this bothers me on a personal level" it is more "this bothers me on a personal level because I understand that its not merely a matter of personal feelings, but a matter of brain chemistry and a proven link between sex/murder imagery that, yes, does make it different." Don't blame me I didn't wire the human brain this way.

The male brain combined with sex drive is basically a ticking time bomb of violence. It inevitably will go off and mostly in some random and unpredictable situations, but we certainly shouldn't try to set more trip-wires.

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22 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

All of Us Are Dead

This is a great show. Except the kids went days without food or water, apparently. My only real knock on the show. I love Korean horror. If you want to be deeply disturbed watch 'The Wailing'. Its about the devil \M/

 

25 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

I just can't take that leap with you to believe that cartoonish depictions of sexual violence serve to sanction or even encourage it.

I don't disagree and not saying we should ban it, maybe call it out for what it is. Ultimately people are conditioned to understand human behavior in terms of ideas and socialization and morality and personal choice and simply disregard that probably 99% of our impulses are dictated by 3 billion years of evolution and natural selection. I am mostly of the opinion the stings of society that control our behavior are pretty tenuous. Not so sure about free-will even in light of this.

I hold humans' ability to collectively manage ourselves in very low esteem. At the same time I do appreciate art and free expression and all that. But some of this is dangerous.

35 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

switches flipped either. I believe most of us can view these types of images in the context of juvenile art intended to shock. I'm not shocked or titillated by this stuff

I am guilty of mixed metaphors here - maybe seeing an image doesn't 'flip the switch' all at once, but continuously consuming and normalizing these ideas and images, for some who are predisposed to act out, can and does serve as an aggravating factor on the path to really bad behavior. You see this, I believe, in child-porn leading to abuse (ugh..really didn't want to go there either).

Maybe we should call it a wrap. I don't think you or Surge are way off base or anything. Hopefully you see a little where I am coming from.

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14 minutes ago, Hungarino said:

My argument is not only "this bothers me on a personal level" it is more "this bothers me on a personal level because I understand that its not merely a matter of personal feelings, but a matter of brain chemistry and a proven link between sex/murder imagery that, yes, does make it different." Don't blame me I didn't wire the human brain this way.

The male brain combined with sex drive is basically a ticking time bomb of violence. It inevitably will go off and mostly in some random and unpredictable situations, but we certainly shouldn't try to set more trip-wires.

So you believe that man, even in a day and age of relative civility, is completely incapable of overcoming his baser instincts? So what's your take on the various studies done towards video games, movies, and television that have repeatedly shown there is no direct causation between viewing violent art and becoming violent?

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9 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

I'm not a huge fan of those types of covers, but I can ignore them just as I can ignore anything else I don't like. However ^ comment seems to suggest that at some point in time it's 'inevitable' that all males will go off in an uncontrolled fit of violent fuelled sex. I'm not sure I agree with that.

Says the cucumber avatar 😄

I mean, not for every individual, but overall it is definitely a constant feature of the human animal. One could make the argument that the human male sex drive is the most destructive force in the living world, if you equate our ongoing conquest of the planet as an expression of sexual aggression and competition.

Sorry, I lied one more note on the art: Notice that the female subjects in these pictures are usually rendered with more realism and detail, while the perpetrators are either cartoonish, masked, or crudely drawn. They are also not usually alone. This is not by accident. The female is meant to be the focal point, the object (hence the term of objectification), while the male(s) are anonymous or generalized. This allows individual men to detach themselves from the act, depersonalize themselves from their urges, and shield any feelings guilt or remorse behind anonymity. This kind of shit really is insidious.

Ok, sorry, I am done now. Before Dead wakes up and this really spirals out of control 

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23 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

I'm not a huge fan of those types of covers, but I can ignore them just as I can ignore anything else I don't like. However ^ comment seems to suggest that at some point in time it's 'inevitable' that all males will go off in an uncontrolled fit of violent fuelled sex. I'm not sure I agree with that.

This...particularly when studies into this have continually shown our behavior isn't determined solely by the content we view

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Just now, SurgicalBrute said:

So you believe that man, even in a day and age of relative civility, is completely incapable of overcoming his baser instincts? 

On the whole any population can only control or constrain violent impulses to a certain degree, over a certain time period. How its expressed may also vary - (war, political strife). In the end its like trying to grip one of those squishy stress relief balls - you squeeze one side but it will inevitably come out between your fingers somewhere.

We are definitely better at controlling it now than at previous times in history, but its still there, right under the surface. The minute controls begin to fail we are back to being savages.

4 minutes ago, SurgicalBrute said:

behavior isn't determined solely by the content we view

I never said that, and not many people would say its solely ever the cause. And with violent content there doesn't seem to be any correlation at all between consumption and action. BUT and this is my point here, its about the combination of sex and violence where things turn ugly. That's why they don't market sexually violent video games. Rape is hardly ever actually depicted in shows and movies (compared to violence which is ubiquitous). Its because it elicits a different response in the viewer than violence alone. It makes sense too. Violence itself is only an behavioral means to an end, take what you want, defend yourself, establish dominance, etc. Sex and reproduction is that end, the fundamental necessity to reproduce that is driven by 3 billion years of evolution. 

Ok, back to work. Sorry for hijacking the thread guys. Good discussions never bother me.

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2 minutes ago, Hungarino said:

On the whole any population can only control or constrain violent impulses to a certain degree, over a certain time period. How its expressed may also vary - (war, political strife). In the end its like trying to grip one of those squishy stress relief balls - you squeeze one side but it will inevitably come out between your fingers somewhere.

We are definitely better at controlling it now than at previous times in history, but its still there, right under the surface. The minute controls begin to fail we are back to being savages.

Okay, for the record, I personally think that's a oversimplification for why violence exists, but for arguments sake, let's say that's true. Man is inherently violent, and we will enact that violence in some way at some point. There's still no evidence to suggest violent art enables this behavior. Everything we've ever studied on the subject says the exact opposite. So what exactly are we meant to be calling out regarding art? If anything, the ability to express these feelings in art, and the ability to engage with these feelings while viewing art, probably serves as a safe way to reduce those impulses...acting as a pressure release

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16 minutes ago, SurgicalBrute said:

Okay, for the record, I personally think that's a oversimplification for why violence exists, but for arguments sake, let's say that's true. Man is inherently violent, and we will enact that violence in some way at some point. There's still no evidence to suggest violent art enables this behavior. Everything we've ever studied on the subject says the exact opposite. So what exactly are we meant to be calling out regarding art? If anything, the ability to express these feelings in art, and the ability to engage with these feelings while viewing art, probably serves as a safe way to reduce those impulses...acting as a pressure release

Violent art, sure. I can't say I'm not a fan (of some). But sexually violent is its own thing.

 

Anyway, agree to disagree on the degree to which sexually violent imagery may influence any given individual's behavior.

Back on topic:

Diabolic Oath  - Aischrolatreia. Black/Death, USA. Remember when just being into Satan was all the controversy we could handle? The good old days :)

 

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Suggesting they are oceanic lifeforms come in sub genres is why we don't need music sub genres.

And I'm a shark but I also happen to like shark fin soup so I'm also part cannibal because I ate my own fin. Which also means I'm dead because sharks can't survive without a fin, therefore you are talking to the dead....and you think I have strange ideas!
 

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