COP26

[Dead1]

I've been following the COP26 environmental conference and it has been even a bigger failure than I expected.

Virtually every deal is inconsequential with major players bowing out or like Poland getting massive exemptions.

Eg most of the countries that agreed to phase out coal don't even use a lot of coal in the first place.  The big users never signed up.

Eg deforestation deal - even as this was being announced, major players like Indonesia and Brazl have already effectively opted out by complaining this hinders their development.

Eg big financiers of coal plants agreeing not to fund coal in other countries, but maintaining right to finance coal projects in their own countries (I guess this means setting up offices around the world so everywhere is that bank's home country).

About the only major deal was Europeans agreeing to cut methane (which is actually far more polluting).  Except big methane polluters (India, China., USA) didn't sign up.

A lot of countries including the shitty one I live in (Australia) literally and openly ran interference to stop anything major happening.  Australia's "emission reduction" minister, Angus Taylor, openly said he was going to COP26 to sell fossil fuels like gas.  

 

I think the only way to stop global warming is something that literally destroys human civilisation and preferably without nuclear fallout and slow enough to let us decommission power and chemical plants and other polluters.  Super COVID 22 anyone?

 

I think that movie Children of Men showed the best solution - whole of humanity goes sterile.

 

[AlSymerz]

Eradication of the human race is the only way because neither side has the answers, they think they do but both side can conveniently ignore their own problems and focus primary on the the other side.

 

[NokturnalBoredom]

6 hours ago, Dead1 said:

I think the only way to stop global warming is something that literally destroys human civilisation and preferably without nuclear fallout and slow enough to let us decommission power and chemical plants and other polluters.  Super COVID 22 anyone?

It's not politically correct to call it "global warming" anymore, remember? Now it's called "climate change".

I have bad news for people though: Climates change. Species either adapt to it or they die off and other species rise. The climate has changed a bunch of times in the very long history of the earth, either for warmer or colder. That's what the ice age was: climate change. Climate change is a built in way for the planet to balance itself out when certain species begin to overtake it. So human civilization may come to an end, or it simply may change radically. If humans can't adapt to it, that's their problem. I'll be dead by then so it doesn't matter to me whatsoever if the climate changes and humans are killed off because they failed to adapt. This notion that every life is precious and that we have to keep as many people from dying as possible is the whole reason why society is as much of a fucked up, bad joke as it is. Shit happens. People die off. It's really no big deal to me, because I'm going to die eventually. Hopefully I die before society really becomes a miserable dystopian shithole, it's close now, but nowhere near as bad as it's going to be.

[Dead1]

1 hour ago, NokturnalBoredom said:

It's not politically correct to call it "global warming" anymore, remember? Now it's called "climate change".

I have bad news for people though: Climates change. Species either adapt to it or they die off and other species rise. The climate has changed a bunch of times in the very long history of the earth, either for warmer or colder. That's what the ice age was: climate change. Climate change is a built in way for the planet to balance itself out when certain species begin to overtake it. So human civilization may come to an end, or it simply may change radically. If humans can't adapt to it, that's their problem. I'll be dead by then so it doesn't matter to me whatsoever if the climate changes and humans are killed off because they failed to adapt. This notion that every life is precious and that we have to keep as many people from dying as possible is the whole reason why society is as much of a fucked up, bad joke as it is. Shit happens. People die off. It's really no big deal to me, because I'm going to die eventually. Hopefully I die before society really becomes a miserable dystopian shithole, it's close now, but nowhere near as bad as it's going to be.

 

 

I have never believed every human life is precious.  But this planet is wonderous and it seems horrible to destroy the amazing diversity of creatures just so one parasitic species can keep binging on it.

 

 

I've also got a young daughter and want her life to be as good as mine....though I hope she doesn't have children because I fear for their future.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

A different perspective from 1992, food for thought anyway.

George Carlin - Saving the Planet

 

[AlSymerz]

Carlin also suggested golf courses should be ripped up in favour of housing for the poor, which may not be a bad idea considering we probably have more homeless than golfers. But I think it was him who also suggested rape is funny...if you picture Miss Piggy raping Kermit the Frog. He's had a lot of advice he liked to share.

 

1 hour ago, Dead1 said:

I've also got a young daughter and want her life to be as good as mine....though I hope she doesn't have children because I fear for their future.

I agree with that, we should leave future generations something to live on, however I'm fairly sure today's leaders, both in power and wanting to be in power, have no idea how to achieve that. I'm not even sure scientists do, but it is a goal worth trying to achieve.

[JonoBlade]

5 hours ago, Dead1 said:

I have never believed every human life is precious.  But this planet is wonderous and it seems horrible to destroy the amazing diversity of creatures just so one parasitic species can keep binging on it.

I've also got a young daughter and want her life to be as good as mine....though I hope she doesn't have children because I fear for their future.

This.

I like to think of myself as a sensible misanthrope. Population is the big elephant in the room at all these conferences. There are nearly 8 billion human beings on the planet. A big chunk feel entitled to live any way they want and damn the consequences, a bigger chunk think that they want to be like and aspire to be the other chunk. They keep breeding like rats.

Humans are the best and worst thing to ever happen to planet Earth. Best in the sense that intelligent life gives the universe meaning. Worst in the sense that it cannot prevent its own destruction when its staring it in the face. 

COP26 is just the latest face palm. I don't really follow it because you kind of know its a ship of fools.

In the meantime all you can do is make changes in your own life. Review your food chain, every product you buy, what bank you use, where your pension is invested and who you vote for. There are many things that individuals can do.

 

[NokturnalBoredom]

12 hours ago, Dead1 said:

I have never believed every human life is precious.  But this planet is wonderous and it seems horrible to destroy the amazing diversity of creatures just so one parasitic species can keep binging on it

Oh I'm not saying you're saying this, just that people do. The planet earth is a gorgeous place and when you look at the history of humankind and what we've done, particularly the 20th century (which is the bloodiest century on record, the beginning of nuclear testing and mass car ownership) I feel like the planet would be a lot better off without human beings on it. I'm not a vegan or anything, I eat meat now and then, but the amount of pollution we create and habitat we destroy just to feed people garbage food like the kind I sell at my job, really pains me. It's something I unfortunately think about a lot but I'm so much a part of the system that it is impossible to see beyond it.

 

 

12 hours ago, Dead1 said:

I've also got a young daughter and want her life to be as good as mine....though I hope she doesn't have children because I fear for their future.

I refuse to have children because I saw the writing on the wall fifteen years ago with where the "Global society" was going. My best friend has four, and now wishes sometimes that he hadn't had them because of how shitty their adult lives are going to be. We've talked about this in depth before, because we've been very close friends since 2003 and have seen the way that "Global society" has changed since then. We were actually going to go into the Army together until his mom talked us out of it and said "You guys don't want to go to war for a bunch of rich men, do you?"

[Dead1]

8 hours ago, NokturnalBoredom said:

I refuse to have children because I saw the writing on the wall fifteen years ago with where the "Global society" was going. My best friend has four, and now wishes sometimes that he hadn't had them because of how shitty their adult lives are going to be. We've talked about this in depth before, because we've been very close friends since 2003 and have seen the way that "Global society" has changed since then. We were actually going to go into the Army together until his mom talked us out of it and said "You guys don't want to go to war for a bunch of rich men, do you?"

 

I didn't really want children but my wife gets what my wife wants. 

 

Modern global society is messed up.  I openly despise it.  Nothing is appreciated it and everything is just a near worthless commodity to be consumed without any passion. 

 

 

[NokturnalBoredom]

3 hours ago, Dead1 said:

Nothing is appreciated it and everything is just a near worthless commodity to be consumed without any passion. 

Yeah that's one of the things that I find most alienating & disturbing about modern society. The only point of being alive is to "power the global economy". It's a lot like the Matrix and I usually hate Matrix comparisons but the people in first world nations exist in a completely fake reality where we're essentially kept asleep and function as batteries to power the economy which serves to enrich less than 1/10th of 1% of the world's population.

It's pretty sickening if you actually think about it. But the problem is that we're all so much a part of the system, we exist in it so deeply, that it's impossible to see beyond it.

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:06 PM, Dead1 said:

I've been following the COP26 environmental conference and it has been even a bigger failure than I expected.

Virtually every deal is inconsequential with major players bowing out or like Poland getting massive exemptions.

Eg most of the countries that agreed to phase out coal don't even use a lot of coal in the first place.  The big users never signed up.

Eg deforestation deal - even as this was being announced, major players like Indonesia and Brazl have already effectively opted out by complaining this hinders their development.

Eg big financiers of coal plants agreeing not to fund coal in other countries, but maintaining right to finance coal projects in their own countries (I guess this means setting up offices around the world so everywhere is that bank's home country).

About the only major deal was Europeans agreeing to cut methane (which is actually far more polluting).  Except big methane polluters (India, China., USA) didn't sign up.

A lot of countries including the shitty one I live in (Australia) literally and openly ran interference to stop anything major happening.  Australia's "emission reduction" minister, Angus Taylor, openly said he was going to COP26 to sell fossil fuels like gas.  

 

I think the only way to stop global warming is something that literally destroys human civilisation and preferably without nuclear fallout and slow enough to let us decommission power and chemical plants and other polluters.  Super COVID 22 anyone?

 

I think that movie Children of Men showed the best solution - whole of humanity goes sterile.

 

Dead1 thanks for the low down on what's happened at the cop26. In the UK theres a  saying that the political commentators use a lot. Its the devil's in the detail. certainly seems to be the case here. It's only when you dig bit deeper behind those big deals  when you realise the political people are playing games again. In the UK red diesel has more restrictions on useage. The water company I work for can't power generators with it soon but that's really going to stop climate change 👏👏👏 

 

[AlSymerz]

In this country we couldn't be trusted with just adding dye to fuel and telling people they can't use it for some application. But more to the point the government couldn't live without the massive fuel excise it gets from every vehicle owner. They do subsidise the heavy use industries of diesel and the big players get it cheaper than the road user but the government still takes it's share of taxes because they tax most fuels twice in this country just to make sure they get everyone.

One of my old bosses wanted to run his trucking company off fish and chip oil. He planned on setting up the tanks and still etc in the same depot we loaded food in and out of the trucks. The idea was solid, diesel engines can happily run on fuel made from last nights dinner, but turning it from cooking oil to fuel in a factory where food products were handled and prepared for deliver was a no no according to our health regulations. Instead of renting the vacant factory next door and doing the same thing without the health worries the boss decided it was too costly and pulled the pin on the entire deal.

[Dead1]

1 hour ago, KillaKukumba said:

In this country we couldn't be trusted with just adding dye to fuel and telling people they can't use it for some application. But more to the point the government couldn't live without the massive fuel excise it gets from every vehicle owner. They do subsidise the heavy use industries of diesel and the big players get it cheaper than the road user but the government still takes it's share of taxes because they tax most fuels twice in this country just to make sure they get everyone.

One of my old bosses wanted to run his trucking company off fish and chip oil. He planned on setting up the tanks and still etc in the same depot we loaded food in and out of the trucks. The idea was solid, diesel engines can happily run on fuel made from last nights dinner, but turning it from cooking oil to fuel in a factory where food products were handled and prepared for deliver was a no no according to our health regulations. Instead of renting the vacant factory next door and doing the same thing without the health worries the boss decided it was too costly and pulled the pin on the entire deal.

The existence of trucking at the level it is an environmental problem in itself.

Most environmentally friendly transport is by water - in US they've found some of the older canals are actually more affordable due to fuel price rises.  Obviously for non-perishable non time essential products.

Next is rail which is also far more environmentally friendly than trucks.

Problem is rail requires government infrastructure and governments deliberately stopped investing in rail and preferred to "outsource" to private operators using trucks starting in the 1970s.

After a while the trucking operators like TOLL and Linfox became very powerful and further pushed an anti-rail/anti-sea political agenda.  Thus railyards have been dismantled and often new ports don't have rail access (eg new ports in Melbourne)

Though there's a hidden government subsidy in all trucking operation - construction and maintenance of roads.  And as the trucks got bigger and more damaging, they increase the burden on tax payers.  

Some rail operators have figured this out and rail maintenance and operations have been separated (especially in Europe).

 

There's another considerable social cost to trucks and that's they contribute to road congestion specially here in Tasmania where roads are poor.  It's not uncommon to see B-Doubles driving on tiny rural or urban roads.  In both Launceston and Hobart, poor road networks and planning means heavy trucks rumble through city centres.

 

Meanwhile rail infrastructure has been removed - no more trains in Hobart, they stop at Brighton which is 25 km outside of Hobart.  Hobart yard is being dismantled whilst the rail bridge on the Derwent will be removed and not replaced. 

 

 

Trucking is also important politically - it is said that truck driving is the last "non-specialised" mass employer employer of non-educated males. 

 

 

The intracoastal sea trade has been wiped out.  Eg due to lack of regulation, any ship from Tasmania docking in Melbourne ports pays a huge docking fee.  Indeed at one point over half the cost of shipping something to Singapore was Port of Melbourne docking fees.

Tasmania had to gets its own shipping lines reinstated but it's still terrible costs for ships going to Tasmania.

 

 

[AlSymerz]

The problem with both rail and sea is that they can't and wont ever be as versatile as trucks. In this country it's partly a government issue because they wont spend on proper infrastructure but the biggest reason is because no matter how much they invest, ships and trains can only reach a small number of places goods need to be.

It's great in the city, whack in a port, whack in a station, move shit all over the place on light rail. But no matter where ships or trains unload in regional areas they need transport from where they unload. Efficiency means hubs not a train pulling up at every town. But even if it did there is still no viable way to get the goods from the station to the shops because it's not like every supermarket, every clothing shop and whatever else will have their own station. It's easy to blame one industry for as many problems as we can but this is the lack of foresight the governments and many environmentalists think with. 

There is nothing wrong with spending on rail and sea but it has to be sensible. It would be far better to realise that just like electric cars will one day be viable throughout regional areas so will electric trucks. There is some impressive work already going on with trucks in this country being able to operate without diesel, the mining industry is using electronic trucks bigger than anything we need on the road and there is so many other tests being conducted it would be stupid to waste such ideas. We need to stop that thought that one industry, in this case heavy transport, is bad and move to the idea that we can and are currently making it better. Build the road infrastructure to allow transport to move today and in the future when transport changes to more sustainable options we'll all benefit.

[JonoBlade]

9 hours ago, NokturnalBoredom said:

It's pretty sickening if you actually think about it. But the problem is that we're all so much a part of the system, we exist in it so deeply, that it's impossible to see beyond it.

Except you do see beyond it, as you have shown. And other regular people do too.

The real trick is somehow not letting awareness ruin your chance at happiness. It's becoming harder and harder for me, but we soldier on, just trying to do the right thing and putting our faith in metal.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

Who's to say who are the "regular" people? For every regular person who can see the big picture there are hundreds more if not thousands who remain oblivious to the macros. Never forget that most people are incredibly uninformed and unconcerned. 

Really just wanted to say that while I understand why electric vehicles are the future, I will mourn the passing of the internal combustion engine. Yes of course I understand that petroleum is technically a finite resource and emissions are bad for the environment and all but god damn gasoline powered cars and trucks were tons of fun to drive. I say "were" because I'm not talking about the piece of shit Honda CRV that takes me to the market these days. I'm just glad I was around back in the late 70's / early 80's and had the chance to drive some of Detroit's finest back in the days when you stomped the gas pedal and were pinned to the seat. Big V-8 hunks of iron are inefficient, wasteful even, yes OK I get it, but man those cars were so much motherfuckin' fun to drive.

And big rigs too, I can't quite imagine what it would be like to drive an electric truck. Soulless like tech death I bet. Something about the very distinctive sound that diesel Caterpillar engine in my old Peterbilt made was very satisfying. Some people call it a whine but it always seemed like more of a whistle to me. Really made you feel like you had some power under you. Although the heavy vibrations when it idled I wouldn't miss. I'm kinda glad I'll be dead & gone before the self-piloted, alternately-fueled vehicles take over and become the norm. 

[FatherAlabaster]

I love the look of some older cars, but I'm here for EVs. There's no reason they couldn't have all the power you could ever want. I'm a big fan of rail-based public transport for local and regional travel but I highly doubt it'll come here in a meaningful way. 

[NokturnalBoredom]

17 hours ago, Dead1 said:

Next is rail which is also far more environmentally friendly than trucks.

I'm all for the return of rail. I've loved trains since I had a vintage Lionel electric train set as a child. Sadly only been on a train twice in my life because I've spent the majority of my life in shithole, FL where the only train is a freightline that occasionally passes through the city south of me. I'd love for there to be monorails and commuter trains in every city, suburb, and rural region in the US and I'd love to be able to take a train everywhere I wanted to go so that I did not have to ever drive again and could just sit and read a book while I waited to get where I was going.

I used to want to have a career on the railroad, but I wasn't smart or physically fit enough for that. Come to think of it, I wasn't smart or physically fit enough for a lot of careers, which is why I just want to be able to support myself with a record store/t-shirt shop.

 

 

3 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Really just wanted to say that while I understand why electric vehicles are the future, I will mourn the passing of the internal combustion engine.

I'm still out on electric cars because I don't see long distance driving being possible with electric cars due to the time it would take to charge them. I'd prefer to have an electric car, because then I would not have to pay an arm and a leg for gasoline that is purposely being made more expensive to discourage lower income people from driving as much (which is a stupid policy, because these people need to get to work somehow and most suburban areas have jack & shit for public transportation). The fact of the matter is that I will never be able to afford an electric car. I have no credit history and do not earn enough in a year to be able to afford an electric car, so I'm going to be driving ICE vehicles for as long as I can find one. I'm curious to see how motorcycles are going to evolve to electric and whether they will be more viable than electric sedans and coupes. Of course, I'd prefer to not have to own a car at all and save about $1000 a year on insurance and more than that on gasoline and maintenance costs.


 

 

9 hours ago, JonoBlade said:

Except you do see beyond it, as you have shown. And other regular people do too.

Well what I mean by that statement is that I can see, as most people can, that something is horrendously wrong with society, but I can't give you any real prescriptions to change it because I cannot imagine anything working any better than what we currently have now... which might I add, has been failing progressively for about 50 years now. We're in a period of managed decline and the decline is being allowed to happen because of bullshit ideology from elites who want to be able to pat themselves on the back and tell the world that they're such great humanitarians. It's happening entirely for selfish reasons and these elites do not give the slightest fuck about how the managed decline of the West impacts people like me, because fuck people like me I guess.

Eventually though, people are going to have had enough and massive violence is going to break out as a result. We're already starting to see it, but we "ain't seen nothin' yet". You can only push people so far before they eventually start pushing back, and this is why I support common people owning firearms as a check on the power of the 1/10th of 1%, I just think that the masses need to begin using them and holding the elites accountable, as there are way more of us than there are of them and technically, what we say should be what goes but people are too cowardly and preoccupied with their packaged food, reality TV, and their overall comfort to stand up and do what needs to be done in order to have a better future and long-term comfort (Because this comfort is coming to an end for the West and as someone who lives in the West, I am not personally going to let my comfort be taken away & my lifestyle downgraded further without one hell of a battle).

The main problem you have with all of this, is that all most people are capable of doing is looking to the past to try and retread ideas that didn't work the first time around, swearing that "It will work this time!" from communism to liberal democracy, all the "thought leaders" are capable of doing is retreading failed ideas rather than coming up with something new entirely. But what is that "Something New"? I haven't the slightest idea, that shit is above my pay grade. I just want things to be better for me than they are now.

[FatherAlabaster]

5 minutes ago, NokturnalBoredom said:

I'm all for the return of rail. I've loved trains since I had a vintage Lionel electric train set as a child. Sadly only been on a train twice in my life because I've spent the majority of my life in shithole, FL where the only train is a freightline that occasionally passes through the city south of me. I'd love for there to be monorails and commuter trains in every city, suburb, and rural region in the US and I'd love to be able to take a train everywhere I wanted to go so that I did not have to ever drive again and could just sit and read a book while I waited to get where I was going.

I used to want to have a career on the railroad, but I wasn't smart or physically fit enough for that. Come to think of it, I wasn't smart or physically fit enough for a lot of careers, which is why I just want to be able to support myself with a record store/t-shirt shop.

 

 

I'm still out on electric cars because I don't see long distance driving being possible with electric cars due to the time it would take to charge them. I'd prefer to have an electric car, because then I would not have to pay an arm and a leg for gasoline that is purposely being made more expensive to discourage lower income people from driving as much (which is a stupid policy, because these people need to get to work somehow and most suburban areas have jack & shit for public transportation). The fact of the matter is that I will never be able to afford an electric car. I have no credit history and do not earn enough in a year to be able to afford an electric car, so I'm going to be driving ICE vehicles for as long as I can find one. I'm curious to see how motorcycles are going to evolve to electric and whether they will be more viable than electric sedans and coupes. Of course, I'd prefer to not have to own a car at all and save about $1000 a year on insurance and more than that on gasoline and maintenance costs.


 

 

Well what I mean by that statement is that I can see, as most people can, that something is horrendously wrong with society, but I can't give you any real prescriptions to change it because I cannot imagine anything working any better than what we currently have now... which might I add, has been failing progressively for about 50 years now. We're in a period of managed decline and the decline is being allowed to happen because of bullshit ideology from elites who want to be able to pat themselves on the back and tell the world that they're such great humanitarians. It's happening entirely for selfish reasons and these elites do not give the slightest fuck about how the managed decline of the West impacts people like me, because fuck people like me I guess.

Eventually though, people are going to have had enough and massive violence is going to break out as a result. We're already starting to see it, but we "ain't seen nothin' yet". You can only push people so far before they eventually start pushing back, and this is why I support common people owning firearms as a check on the power of the 1/10th of 1%, I just think that the masses need to begin using them and holding the elites accountable, as there are way more of us than there are of them and technically, what we say should be what goes but people are too cowardly and preoccupied with their packaged food, reality TV, and their overall comfort to stand up and do what needs to be done in order to have a better future and long-term comfort (Because this comfort is coming to an end for the West and as someone who lives in the West, I am not personally going to let my comfort be taken away & my lifestyle downgraded further without one hell of a battle).

The main problem you have with all of this, is that all most people are capable of doing is looking to the past to try and retread ideas that didn't work the first time around, swearing that "It will work this time!" from communism to liberal democracy, all the "thought leaders" are capable of doing is retreading failed ideas rather than coming up with something new entirely. But what is that "Something New"? I haven't the slightest idea, that shit is above my pay grade. I just want things to be better for me than they are now.

Using this thread as a springboard into talking about how the "common people" need to start using firearms against the elite is a prime example of what we don't want on the board. Seems like every issue these days is one or two posts away from calls for violence. Keep that shit off the forum.

A violent popular uprising certainly wouldn't help solve climate issues in any case. Have a look at how scarred some other places around the world have been by violent uprisings before you go thinking about pushing for one here. Climate is a job for governments. It sucks that they're mostly toothless and we're on track to a pretty shitty future for human habitability, but governments are going to have to be the ones taking the big steps. Blaming everything on "elites" is an oversimplification and I don't think it leads in a productive direction. Saying you don't like the track the world is on because of how our society has been pushed into overconsumption and then in the same paragraph saying you'd take up arms to defend your creature comforts is a hell of a contradiction. I like this thread. Let's keep it on track.

[NokturnalBoredom]

3 hours ago, FatherAlabaster said:

Saying you don't like the track the world is on because of how our society has been pushed into overconsumption and then in the same paragraph saying you'd take up arms to defend your creature comforts is a hell of a contradiction. I like this thread. Let's keep it on track.

I never said that I was going to take up arms, because I don't believe that anything involving me and violence is going to work in the long run. One person doing one thing or one thing happening in one nation isn't going to do anyone any good in the truly global scheme of things. I also did not call for violence, calling for violence is me saying "Yeah you need to start killing people". What I stated, albeit not very clearly, was that as things get worse, violence is going to break out as a result and that I personally don't care if it does because at that point there are going to be more people who believe in violence at that point in time than there will be people like me who think that we need to take the Gandhi & MLK route. Desperate people are going to do desperate things. Scared people hurt people, and a lot of people are scared by the direction the world is heading in with regard to the environmental issues.

But I hate to be the one to burst your bubble and point out that sometimes, shows of force are necessary for people to get what they want. When and if that day comes, it's not my problem and has nothing to do with me. I'm not trying to organize it, I'm just pointing out the obvious & calling it as I see it, I'm not going to get your forum shut down by the anti-free speech brigade (who actually exist to keep people from organizing mass movements against the power structure). Furthermore, the very fact that people are willing to let the power structure shut them down for wrongspeak and thoughtcrime speaks to the very problem I'm talking about and the reason why I feel compelled to "call it as I see it". The power structure only gets away with what the average person allows them to get away with, because there are more average people than there are "powerful" ones. This is the core of the message that individuals like Greta Thunberg (who I do not really care for, but that's irrelevant) are trying to make people realize: we allow people to do this shit to the planet when we could just as easily face them down and stop them from doing so by sheer factor of numbers alone. Their private armies might kill a few of us, painting them as the "bad guys" in the process, but they cannot kill all of us... after all the need us to buy their products and power their precious "economies". With enough people, we could walk right into Exxon's boardrooms and force them to pay the judgment that they lost against the indigenous communities of Ecuador for pollution (just an example). Figure it this way, the average security guard has a handgun and two magazines. Against 100,000 people that's not going to make a difference: that crowd could easily overwhelm, disarm, and place them under arrest and then head for the boardroom to place the executives under arrest.

Believe it or not, I've read a lot about the topics we're discussing here and followed it closely for a while. I actually follow it less closely now because the reality of the situation is too goddamn depressing most of the time because people are simply not motivated enough to force (there's that naughty word again) a systemic change. It goes back to what I said about "everyone being so much a part of the system that it is impossible to see beyond it". We cannot imagine a world that does not utilize petroleum at the moment because there are no electric jets, no viable way for the majority of people to transition to an electric vehicle or mass transportation-- the infrastructure and availability of the means simply isn't there yet, despite the demand existing.

But as I previously stated, the climate is going to change either way. It's changed many times before people began pumping greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere. Like Carlin stated in that clip: the planet is fine, the people are fucked. The worst environmental disaster that ever took place, something that never happened on this planet before, hasn't done a whole lot besides make the area uninhabitable for humans. The wildlife is still doing fine, plants are still growing. The earth will shake us off like a bad case of fleas and keep right on going. We'll be just another failed mutation in a long line of failed mutations.

[FatherAlabaster]

2 hours ago, NokturnalBoredom said:

this is why I support common people owning firearms as a check on the power of the 1/10th of 1%, I just think that the masses need to begin using them and holding the elites accountable

 

2 hours ago, NokturnalBoredom said:

I am not personally going to let my comfort be taken away & my lifestyle downgraded further without one hell of a battle).

 

24 minutes ago, NokturnalBoredom said:

But I hate to be the one to burst your bubble and point out that sometimes, shows of force are necessary for people to get what they want.

 

13 minutes ago, NokturnalBoredom said:

I never said that I was going to take up arms, because I don't believe that anything involving me and violence is going to work in the long run. One person doing one thing or one thing happening in one nation isn't going to do anyone any good in the truly global scheme of things. I also did not call for violence, calling for violence is me saying "Yeah you need to start killing people".

Honestly, look at the contradictions in your own words here, instead of trying to win an argument. While you're at it, look up the history of shows of force and violent backlash here in the USA, if the current plights of other countries mired in civil war or under the thumbs of repressive regimes that came to power in response to violent unrest aren't compelling. Look at what actually motivated them. It's pretty ugly. But don't keep going with this here. I have zero patience for it and I've asked you to chill with the political bullshit a few times already. For fucks sake, you were the one that came in all hot about how much you hated talking about it. I'm not worried about the forum getting shut down, I'm just annoyed that you aren't getting the picture. Go post more about Burzum. Check out this Polish band Furia if you haven't, their first couple albums are great. Stop stirring the fucking pot. 

 

53 minutes ago, NokturnalBoredom said:

The wildlife is still doing fine, plants are still growing.

We're in the middle of a mass extinction. The wildlife is not doing fine. We're torching the fucking place. I take your point that life in general will adapt and the world was fine before we came along and life will probably exist afterwards, but we're taking way too many other species down with us. Environment is a lot more than just climate. 

[AlSymerz]

5 hours ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Who's to say who are the "regular" people? For every regular person who can see the big picture there are hundreds more if not thousands who remain oblivious to the macros. Never forget that most people are incredibly uninformed and unconcerned. 

Really just wanted to say that while I understand why electric vehicles are the future, I will mourn the passing of the internal combustion engine. Yes of course I understand that petroleum is technically a finite resource and emissions are bad for the environment and all but god damn gasoline powered cars and trucks were tons of fun to drive. I say "were" because I'm not talking about the piece of shit Honda CRV that takes me to the market these days. I'm just glad I was around back in the late 70's / early 80's and had the chance to drive some of Detroit's finest back in the days when you stomped the gas pedal and were pinned to the seat. Big V-8 hunks of iron are inefficient, wasteful even, yes OK I get it, but man those cars were so much motherfuckin' fun to drive.

And big rigs too, I can't quite imagine what it would be like to drive an electric truck. Soulless like tech death I bet. Something about the very distinctive sound that diesel Caterpillar engine in my old Peterbilt made was very satisfying. Some people call it a whine but it always seemed like more of a whistle to me. Really made you feel like you had some power under you. Although the heavy vibrations when it idled I wouldn't miss. I'm kinda glad I'll be dead & gone before the self-piloted, alternately-fueled vehicles take over and become the norm. 

I'm with you on the thought of losing the internal combustion engine. It will be sad to see the end of muscle cars, there are so few on the road here now and if you really want to buy one they are bloody expensive. I don't know what the future holds for these sorts of vehicles but how sad would it be if the world just stopped making fuel for these things and collectors, who are the only ones that would have them, could only store their collection in shed and not actually use them.

The sound of a thumping V8, the sound of a thumping diesel it's all part of the enjoyment of driving. Sure with an electric vehicle I'll be able to hear my music playing, but damn a well tuned engine is music!!

 

[MacabreEternal]

[Thatguy]

I said to myself when this topic opened up -'This will end in tears.'

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

So you're saying you don't think it's time for a little Coup D'Etat? 

 

 

 

As far as climate change is concerned though....I think "mass extinction" while it may be technically accurate by definition, is probably a bit alarmist. (there have been several mass extinctions that have taken place millions of years before humans showed up and industrialized the world) But yes, even though the flowers do continue to bloom each spring and my grass continues to grow and the deer and bears and groundhogs and squirrels continue to wander through my yard nibbling at plant life, clearly the 7.75 billion human inhabitants of earth have been having a detrimental impact on the natural environment in a myriad of ways. Don't think there's really any rational, logical argument about that. But while I do believe George Carlin was mostly right when he said the planet will be fine it's the people who'll be fucked, that's really not the point.

I might be getting pretty old myself, and I accept that my time left on this rock is shrinking by the day. But as an inhabitant of this planet with children & grandchildren I do have a vested interest in what their lives will be like in the decades to come. I'll use this analogy: let's say the average middle class person in the west might earn between 1 and 5 million dollars/euros/pounds/whatever over the course of their working lifetimes and most of us will have no choice but to find a way to make that last at least somewhere close to the end of our lives. Meanwhile how many rock stars, actors and pro athletes who've earned possibly anywhere from tens of millions up to $100 million or more over their 10 or 15 year careers will then find themselves broke as a joke within 10 years after the easy money stops coming? While the rest of us all look at them and wonder how could so-and-so manage to burn through $100 Million in just 5 years?!?

It's living for today vs looking ahead to tomorrow and planning for the future. Spenders vs savers. Living within your means vs consuming as much as possible on maxxed-out credit. Seems like it's practically become the norm these days in our disposable, consumptionist western culture for most people to be self-absorbed, selfish consumers who don't give a fuck about anyone or anything else besides their own immediate desires and concerns. Many people (at least here in the states anyway) also don't seem to think that any rules should apply to themselves, rules are only for everyone else to follow. The very concepts of saving a little something for a rainy day and having concern for your fellow (wo)man have become lost on not all of us fortunately, but certainly the majority of the 21st century denizens of the 1st world.

I suppose that's partly because most of us have never lived through truly life changing catastrophes like the great depression 90 years ago; partly because 21st century TV and social media perpetuate the modern consumer culture as something to be aspired to and make people feel like they have to keep up with the Joneses; and party because real wages have shrunk so much over the last 50 years that for increasing numbers of hand-to-mouthers, saving for the future is simply not possible even if they would otherwise be so inclined. So fuck it, let's spend it while we've got it. Can't take it with you, right? Nothing left at the end of the month for retirement planning 'cause they're barely making rent and getting food on the table as it is, at least not after they've filled their SUV's with gas, paid for their 5G smart phones, tablets and inernet service, Netflix & Hulu, music & video games and $200 sneakers, yet another tattoo and botox & fake tits and what have you. Because even what I'd consider to be relatively poor people here in the west look at all that discretionary spending type shit as essential now. Parting with your smart phone polls as less desirable than parting with a finger or two. Meanwhile more people than not here in the US don't have enough savings to cover an unexpected $400 emergency. So putting aside a little something for the future has become basically just a 1st world upper middle class thing anymore.

It's the same way when it comes to being environmentally conscious and actively caring for the environment. This really seems to be a concern mainly of the relatively wealthy. And when I say wealthy I'm talking about let's say the top 10% of the world who have a net worth of at least $93,170. But even if your total net worth is only a measly $4,210 that still puts you in the top 50% worldwide. I think a lot of middle class 1st worlders (myself as well as most of us here on the forum I'm assuming) tend to forget how good we actually have it relatively speaking, and we just don't realize how many people there are in the world who are actually living below what most of us would consider to be the abject poverty level. 

I think it's unrealistic to expect most people who are quite literally just barley scraping by in life to have the capacity to worry too much about their carbon footprints or their impact on the future of our environment. And the same goes even for entire countries that might feel like they're just barely scraping by as well. Until the wealth gap and chronically shrinking wages are addressed in a meaningful way and living conditions around the world improve drastically I just don't see enough of the world's population caring about the environment enough to make it a priority in their lives or having that environmental concern catch on widely enough to make much of a difference. And I don't think I'm being a nihilist here, just a realist. Now I'm not saying anyone should stop recycling & conserving, not saying we shouldn't all strive to waste & pollute less and to lessen our destructive impact on the various habitats and ecosystems of the world. I'm just saying maybe we should temper our expectations for the environmentalist movement in the near and even the not so near future. Because it's going to be a very long and arduous battle and it looks to be all uphill.