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When metal bands p*ssed off there fans by changing style ???????


blaaacdoommmmfan
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On 7/21/2022 at 11:20 PM, KillaKukumba said:

Imagine that was a thing bands were required to do if they strayed!

Ok so it doesn't happen and good thing too. I can think of a few bands who tried changing the formula for an album before reverting back to type on all subsequent releases. Of course other bands like Mettalica changed there style and never fully went back to it. They've inspired a fair few bands though too change there sound in equally big ways. I've read in a few band interviews that the band thinks if Mettalica can change there sound so can they. 

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On 7/23/2022 at 5:31 AM, Valso said:

If Lindemann returns to the band, yes, I would. I stopped listening to Nigthwish for the same reason - no more Tarya in the band.

An apology would help only if they return to what they were, otherwise it's just words. "We're sorry we disappointed you but we got to greedy for money".

Ok I understand. If cliff Burton returned to Mettalica I'd listen to them again. Just slight issue with return 😉

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51 minutes ago, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

Ok I understand. If Cliff Burton returned to Metallica I'd listen to them again. Just slight issue with return 😉

So you're saying the change in bass players is the reason why Metallica blows now? Really? And if we brought his 60 year old ass back next week it'd make things right again?

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I hate to throw cold water on this resurrection, but in all likelihood Cliff would have hastened 'tallica changing their sound, and I think there's a good chance it would have resulted in something the 'true' fans would have liked even less than AJFA or TBA.

I postulate this: Cliff would have taken them more toward a prog/trad sound than more to the extreme.

Reasoning:

- He had already defined a new genre and produced 3 bona fide classics. It was always going to be hard to come back from MoP without changing things up. How many more thrashterpieces did he have rattling around in his head?

- Highly skilled musician. I am sure the more exposure he got to other world class musicians the more motivation he would have to evolve technically. That usually leads to prog wankery.

- Cliff was not a scenester. He wanted success and stardom no doubt, but on the band's terms and as a result of their music and his skill. They were basically at super stardom when he passed, maybe to the point where he felt he could check the stardom box and go in directions he wanted.

- He wore the 'Canadian tuxedo' with bell bottoms. Bell bottoms in the 80's were prog or jam band waiting to happen.

 

Image result for cliff burton bass

Yeah I know its a Misfits shirt, so maybe he would have gone punk, right? No disrespect to mister Doyle Wolfgang von Frankenstein, but I am not sure Cliff would have been content with three chords and a cloud of angel dust. Plus its hard to imagine a more flaccid scene for a young metal god to be joining than punk in 1986. Sorry- total straw man paragraph just so I could drag punk in the mid-late 80's.

Back to the story, Cliff was going to go more experimental, long form, psychedelic and far-out. He was going to drive all of the metallica faithful crazy with what they thought he should be doing, but he was one of a kind and a free spirit enough to not be constrained. He set thrash on its course and we can all be thankful.This is the fantasy I have, somewhere in an alternate universe he is jamming with Jimi and recording 38 min base solos and he is glorious. Probably the most devastating loss of that era, irreplaceable and one for the ages. Thank you Cliff, RIP!

 

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Huh, it has always been my understanding that James and Lars ruled that band with an iron first and had complete and utter control over the musical direction of the band, especially in the 80's. Kirk and even Cliff were essentially just along for the ride. So even if Cliff had never passed we still could've gotten the same AJFA album, except maybe with more bass....

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1 minute ago, zackflag said:

Huh, it has always been my understanding that James and Lars ruled that band with an iron first and had complete and utter control over the musical direction of the band, especially in the 80's. Kirk and even Cliff were essentially just along for the ride. So even if Cliff had never passed we still could've gotten the same AJFA album, except maybe with more bass....

And it was always my understanding that Cliff wrote or co-wrote all of their best work, and was the accepted as the artistic foundation. Basically I always thought James and Lars ran stuff to the degree that Cliff was cool with, and that he was laid back and needed more assertive personalities to drive and promote the band. I think he was definitely going to be the first one to want to change direction or walk.

But obviously that is lots of conjecture on my part- just the impression from documentaries and accounts from some of the other musicians in that scene at the time.

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5 minutes ago, Hungarino said:

And it was always my understanding that Cliff wrote or co-wrote all of their best work, and was the accepted as the artistic foundation. Basically I always thought James and Lars ran stuff to the degree that Cliff was cool with, and that he was laid back and needed more assertive personalities to drive and promote the band. I think he was definitely going to be the first one to want to change direction or walk.

But obviously that is lots of conjecture on my part- just the impression from documentaries and accounts from some of the other musicians in that scene at the time.

Just checked what the Metallica MA page had to say on this as I was genuinely curious. Turns out Cliff had songwriting credits on roughly 8 songs total from those first 3 albums, 4 of them being on Ride The Lightning, and only one on Kill em All (Anesthesia). That's more than I would've guessed, so there's seems to be some truth to what your saying here.

Hetfield on the other hand has writing credits for the entirety of their first three albums, which I guess only makes sense, guitar players are usually the ones writing all the music.

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35 minutes ago, zackflag said:

Just checked what the Metallica MA page had to say on this as I was genuinely curious. Turns out Cliff had songwriting credits on roughly 8 songs total from those first 3 albums, 4 of them being on Ride The Lightning, and only one on Kill em All (Anesthesia). That's more than I would've guessed, so there's seems to be some truth to what your saying here.

Hetfield on the other hand has writing credits for the entirety of their first three albums, which I guess only makes sense, guitar players are usually the ones writing all the music.

James is the man, but I can't say I am crazy about the type of personality he morphed into over the years. Lemmy and Wolverine are the only dudes from this or last century that should have been allowed to rock the mutton chops stache'.

And I'll throw in the side note that Dave Mustaine also contributed far more artistically than Metallica faithful ever wanted to give him credit for. Some of their protracted battles were specifically about song-writing credit. But this is stuff that's been beaten to death so I won't continue it here, other than to say MEGADETH RULEZZ!!!

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1 hour ago, Hungarino said:

And it was always my understanding that Cliff wrote or co-wrote all of their best work, and was the accepted as the artistic foundation. Basically I always thought James and Lars ran stuff to the degree that Cliff was cool with, and that he was laid back and needed more assertive personalities to drive and promote the band. I think he was definitely going to be the first one to want to change direction or walk.

 

1 hour ago, Hungarino said:

I hate to throw cold water on this resurrection, but in all likelihood Cliff would have hastened 'tallica changing their sound, and I think there's a good chance it would have resulted in something the 'true' fans would have liked even less than AJFA or TBA.

I postulate this: Cliff would have taken them more toward a prog/trad sound than more to the extreme.

Reasoning:

- He had already defined a new genre and produced 3 bona fide classics. It was always going to be hard to come back from MoP without changing things up. How many more thrashterpieces did he have rattling around in his head?

- Highly skilled musician. I am sure the more exposure he got to other world class musicians the more motivation he would have to evolve technically. That usually leads to prog wankery.

- Cliff was not a scenester. He wanted success and stardom no doubt, but on the band's terms and as a result of their music and his skill. They were basically at super stardom when he passed, maybe to the point where he felt he could check the stardom box and go in directions he wanted.

- He wore the 'Canadian tuxedo' with bell bottoms. Bell bottoms in the 80's were prog or jam band waiting to happen.

Yeah I know its a Misfits shirt, so maybe he would have gone punk, right? No disrespect to mister Doyle Wolfgang von Frankenstein, but I am not sure Cliff would have been content with three chords and a cloud of angel dust. Plus its hard to imagine a more flaccid scene for a young metal god to be joining than punk in 1986. Sorry- total straw man paragraph just so I could drag punk in the mid-late 80's.

Back to the story, Cliff was going to go more experimental, long form, psychedelic and far-out. He was going to drive all of the metallica faithful crazy with what they thought he should be doing, but he was one of a kind and a free spirit enough to not be constrained. He set thrash on its course and we can all be thankful. This is the fantasy I have, somewhere in an alternate universe he is jamming with Jimi and recording 38 min base solos and he is glorious. Probably the most devastating loss of that era, irreplaceable and one for the ages. Thank you Cliff, RIP!

 

Of course we'll never know what might have been but as the artistic foundation and the best musician in the band, it's likely that if Cliff had been able to continue on with them past 1986, whatever they came up with next after they were done with pure thrash would have probably at least been good. Or certainly better than it turned out to be without him. James & Lars ran the band because they were more driven personalities than Cliff or Kirk, but clearly they took Cliff's artistic input to their songwriting and gave him leeway for bass solos and stuff. They knew what they had in Cliff and knew they were a much better band with him. 

It's my opinion that in the 90's people just wouldn't stop bitching about them changing direction away from thrash more because the newer material wasn't good than because it wasn't thrash. I suspect that if the 90's material had been good, even assuming that it would still have been a major direction shift away from thrash, many true fans would have been willing to go along for that ride. Some quality music might have gone a long way to hush the naysayers. There can be life for a band beyond thash.

As it happened they just ended up trading in a lot of their old fans for millions of new fans, and clearly their newer fans fucking love what they do. Indeed since the Black album they can basically do no wrong as kings of the mainstream metal world, so it really doesn't matter who's on bass anymore or what sub-genre they're playing or even if they can write any quality music. They're way past all of that trivial bullshit. They seem pretty happy with how things have turned out too. For some dudes who really aren't the best songwriters and a singer who's lost most of what vocal ability he had a couple of decades ago, they really have done alright for themselves.

Cliff wouldn't even recognize them now though. I can imagine him shedding a tear or two if they could resurrect poor 24 year old Cliff and have him listen to all the albumns they've done without him since 1988.

 

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10 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

Well their two new songs are definitely better than I thought they were going to be!

 

Its basically a regurgitation of his best stuff over the past like 4 albums. He has zero new ideas, but can still crank out the riffs and shreddage, so just take my damn money already. I doubt even he understands what the hell he is singing about anymore...some sort of quasi-militaristic apocalypse I think, but its not clear if he is for or against.

He's a crazy old bastard but still the legend.

Oh and does anyone born before 1997 understand wtf this is promoting? What the fuck is web3 ecosystem? I thought we were still on web1. What is a generative collection? What is discord hahaha

"Introducing Megadeth’s CYBER ARMY 3.0, a web3 ecosystem dedicated to Megadeth fans and collectors. The first collection, RATTLEHEADS, is coming soon and will feature a generative collection of Vic Rattleheads highlighting nearly 40 years of iconic themes & imagery. The Whitelist begins NOW. Join our official Discord for access: http://discord.gg/megadeth"

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10 minutes ago, Hungarino said:

Its basically a regurgitation of his best stuff over the past like 4 albums. He has zero new ideas, but can still crank out the riffs and shreddage, so just take my damn money already. I doubt even he understands what the hell he is singing about anymore...some sort of quasi-militaristic apocalypse I think, but its not clear if he is for or against.

He's a crazy old bastard but still the legend.

Oh and does anyone born before 1997 understand wtf this is promoting? What the fuck is web3 ecosystem? I thought we were still on web1. What is a generative collection? What is discord hahaha

"Introducing Megadeth’s CYBER ARMY 3.0, a web3 ecosystem dedicated to Megadeth fans and collectors. The first collection, RATTLEHEADS, is coming soon and will feature a generative collection of Vic Rattleheads highlighting nearly 40 years of iconic themes & imagery. The Whitelist begins NOW. Join our official Discord for access: http://discord.gg/megadeth"

Yeah there is the riffs and almost blatant rip offs of his own work in those songs but I still reckon these songs are better than anything else from the last few albums.

The web 3 stuff is like his venture into NFT's...a total waste of fucking time for most of his fans. He's (it might actually be Justis Mustaine as he is head of Megadeth Inc these days), trying to get the CyberArmy something exclusive. Gone are the day a membership fee was enough. Now he wants blockchain technologies and token based purchases. It's basically trying to make the those who want to be part of an elite group more elite.

I'm kind of surprised he's pushing blockchain and NFT's like he is given that several artists like Ozzy got screwed over by the system not that long ago.

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6 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

Yeah there is the riffs and almost blatant rip offs of his own work in those songs but I still reckon these songs are better than anything else from the last few albums.

The web 3 stuff is like his venture into NFT's...a total waste of fucking time for most of his fans. He's (it might actually be Justis Mustaine as he is head of Megadeth Inc these days), trying to get the CyberArmy something exclusive. Gone are the day a membership fee was enough. Now he wants blockchain technologies and token based purchases. It's basically trying to make the those who want to be part of an elite group more elite.

I'm kind of surprised he's pushing blockchain and NFT's like he is given that several artists like Ozzy got screwed over by the system not that long ago.

Goodness I don't know how we ever got by before. I remember being pissed to pay $11 for a cassette then being pissed again if it didn't have lyrics and extra photos. That was about the extent of merch.

Oh shit I literally had this idea just now. Set up a bunch of cameras backstage and then sell VR access. Basically fans pay to look around and be a 'fly on the wall'. Really no limit to how many people you could sell it to, just have to pay for the cameras and set up the system and access. Then pay extra for up close unique views of the live show. But let me guess some bands already do this?

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I'm actually surprised someone hasn't thought of that. Although having seen Dave back stage 30 years ago on the RIP tour I can almost guarantee he wont be the one giving a VR tour of his back stage.

I remember once being a member of Megadeth Arizona (forum and website), back in the mid to late 90's, but from memory it was as early as maybe 03 or 04 that Megadeth started charging people to use their forum. I understand upkeep on servers and for bands they need to hire admin staff etc but Megadave was one of the first I remember to charge people for the privilege of taking on their forum. Shit just went south from there and bands now charge for all sorts of shit.

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On 7/24/2022 at 11:03 PM, KillaKukumba said:

Talk to Wendy Dio, she might be able to manage Cliff's return

Thanks for advice I think Simon Atan would be the man/fallen angel  to help. 😉 Slight Downside is I'd have to sell my soul to him. But at least cliff would return to Mettalica. 😆

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On 7/25/2022 at 2:05 AM, zackflag said:

Huh, it has always been my understanding that James and Lars ruled that band with an iron first and had complete and utter control over the musical direction of the band, especially in the 80's. Kirk and even Cliff were essentially just along for the ride. So even if Cliff had never passed we still could've gotten the same AJFA album, except maybe with more bass....

Hello again Zackflag. The power tool/colorado avs fan dude😉 from all the interviews and documentaries I've watched about Mettalica I can say your right to a large extent that Lars and James h did mostly everything. However cliff was said to have a say if the song was suitably finished. Apparently he'd make them refine songs and improve them if they were not up to his high standards which lead to excellent music as far as I'm concerned. They don't listen to many but in cliff they listened. They respected his increased knowledge of music theory and his passion for complex melodies. I've no doubt if he'd survived that Mettalica would be making much better music than they are today. Also what kind of music would Mettalica be making if cliff lived? I'm guessing it would be other genres mixed with metal. 

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On 7/25/2022 at 1:00 AM, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

Ok I understand. If cliff Burton returned to Mettalica I'd listen to them again. Just slight issue with return 😉

As for Metallica, there's only one way they could make me their fan - if Hettfield leaves the band bc he can't sing. :D

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On 8/4/2022 at 12:55 PM, Valso said:

As for Metallica, there's only one way they could make me their fan - if Hettfield leaves the band bc he can't sing. :D

Bit harsh on papa het. I preferred his old style singing on those classic first few albums. He had more energy in his vocals then. He's bit too croony for my liking these days but he's good singer. I think musically there not as interesting as they've been since cliff died. That's my main problem with them

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2 hours ago, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

Bit harsh on papa het. I preferred his old style singing on those classic first few albums. He had more energy in his vocals then. He's bit too croony for my liking these days but he's good singer. I think musically there not as interesting as they've been since cliff died. That's my main problem with them

No Sweets, pull yer head out. He's a great guitar player, but a really shitty singer. I happen to be a rather terrible singer myself, and it takes one to know one. Your hound's a better singer than Jaymz.

Years ago in the 80's they flirted with the idea of hiring a dedicated singer to relieve him of his vocal duties. But then they figured people already knew him as the voice of the band, and adding another band member would mean they'd have to give the new guy a share diluting their own shares so the idea was nixed. But if they had known back then how bad his voice would one day get, maybe they would have taken that idea more seriously. 

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