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Balor

What makes a genre?

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How is a new genre of metal formed?  I was thinking that at minimum there should be a handful of bands that are all consciously pursuing a new musical style.  Also, does anyone see the beginnings of new genres (as in distinct genres - like black or death metal -, rather than subgenres of subgenres - like dsbm or war bm -) of metal music now?

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I think it is harder for genres to appear now...and also it is (falsely) easier. I also think certain "new" genres are just repeats of old genres that the new bands are not aware of having been around.

For me, a genre is like the large "Catch-all" category. then there are variations. And sometimes I think we go overboard with the variations...like "technical gore-grind black death metal core"....really? We don't need to get that detailed I think. Like to me, there is really no huge diffeence between Cephalic Carnage, Dillinger Escape Plan and Meshuggah. There are differences for sure, but not enough to have each warrant it's own genre description. Maybe it is me just not wanting to detail it that much...

in my world, these are the main metal genres:

1st wave (Sabbath; Budgie; Deep Purple etc...); NWOBHM; prog-metal; power metal; death metal; black metal; thrash metal; hair metal; doom metal; stoner metal; crap metal (Nu-Metal or Rap metal); soccer mom metal (stuff like you see at Rock on the Range)

I use mostly musical elements to differentiate them like tempo, harmonic style; phrase arrangement; vocal cadence, as well as sound texture, specific guitar/bass  sounds; use of non guitar effects etc. 

I generally don't classify genre by lyrical content

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2 hours ago, xUpTheIronsx said:

I think it is harder for genres to appear now...and also it is (falsely) easier. I also think certain "new" genres are just repeats of old genres that the new bands are not aware of having been around.

I imagine that this is the same for all forms of art.  To create something totally new is extremely difficult, and perhaps even lucky.

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On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 3:53 AM, xUpTheIronsx said:

I think it is harder for genres to appear now...and also it is (falsely) easier. I also think certain "new" genres are just repeats of old genres that the new bands are not aware of having been around.

For me, a genre is like the large "Catch-all" category. then there are variations. And sometimes I think we go overboard with the variations...like "technical gore-grind black death metal core"....really? We don't need to get that detailed I think. Like to me, there is really no huge diffeence between Cephalic Carnage, Dillinger Escape Plan and Meshuggah. There are differences for sure, but not enough to have each warrant it's own genre description. Maybe it is me just not wanting to detail it that much...

in my world, these are the main metal genres:

1st wave (Sabbath; Budgie; Deep Purple etc...); NWOBHM; prog-metal; power metal; death metal; black metal; thrash metal; hair metal; doom metal; stoner metal; crap metal (Nu-Metal or Rap metal); soccer mom metal (stuff like you see at Rock on the Range)

I use mostly musical elements to differentiate them like tempo, harmonic style; phrase arrangement; vocal cadence, as well as sound texture, specific guitar/bass  sounds; use of non guitar effects etc. 

I generally don't classify genre by lyrical content

I think precise subgenres are just an easy way to describe a band as accurately as possible as quickly as possible. For instance rather than saying "this band is a death metal band with lots of time signature changes, interesting song structures and unusual rhythms and melodies" you can just say "tech-death".

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Will, I totally agree. Some people get all upset about "labels," saying things like, "don't label me!" and "don't label my band!" I've always found this to be confusing and somewhat childish. Here's the thing: labels are NOUNS and without nouns we can't communicate. The anti-labeling thing is self contradictory. For example, if one says, "don't label my band," they are contradicting themselves because they themselves are labeling their own band. They put the label, "band," on their band!

Anyway, I enjoy categorizing things, especially music genres, and I find nothing wrong with it. I usually don't classify by lyrical content, but there are some exceptions. Viking metal for example, can only be so through lyrical content, because the sound of the music of vikings has been lost to time. 

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I don't think we're likely to see any "new" genres pop up anymore because everything that already exists already falls under a genre.  Every band we will talk about in this forum (almost) is a metal band.  Everything beyond that is a subgenre.  NWOBHM, Nu-Metal, Death Metal  all fit under the same umbrella.  We see them as different genres because there's a whole lot of deviation between...I don't know... Diamond Head and Cannibal Corpse.  However, using "metal' is a terrible descriptor as it's way too broad.  It's like saying "I live in America".  We create subgenres to map the landscape of the music, and there is no limit to how finite your descriptors can be.  I guess what I'm saying is either everything is a genre, or everything is a subgenre.

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11 hours ago, ButterLettuss said:

I guess what I'm saying is either everything is a genre, or everything is a subgenre.

But ain´t that always the case until a new one emerges? I don´t think anyone predicted there would ever be metal music in the 60´s. :D Who knows, maybe (relating to other topic here) in the future algorithm based AI generated music will become a thing (I don´t think so, but predicting these things in the longer run are near impossible). :D 

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I think what defines a genre is the common musical techniques and direction of bands crafting that sound. For example you can hear the elements tying Mayhem, Darkthrone, Burzum, Necromantia, and Rotting Christ together as black metal.

 

As for new genres emerging I'm not sure. I think these days bands are content to simply blur the genre lines. For example Grave Miasma contain elements of death metal, avant-garde, and even a little jazz at times.

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There are two forms of innovation, innovation from within, and innovation from without. From without is easy, you just mix genres. Like when black metal bands started mixing in some folk, that's innovation from without. Innovation  from within is much harder, it means you remain within the limits of a genre, but find something new to do within those limits, or creating something entirely new, and not just mixing things that already existed. While mixing genres can be fun and interesting, I'm more interested in innovation from within.

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On 12/10/2017 at 6:07 AM, Parker said:

There are two forms of innovation, innovation from within, and innovation from without. From without is easy, you just mix genres. Like when black metal bands started mixing in some folk, that's innovation from without. Innovation  from within is much harder, it means you remain within the limits of a genre, but find something new to do within those limits, or creating something entirely new, and not just mixing things that already existed. While mixing genres can be fun and interesting, I'm more interested in innovation from within.

Interesting point.

I think that innovation from within a genre just represents the creative power of the artist.  I would imagine, however, that to innovate within a genre, you also might shed some portions of it.  Thus, you might end up redefining the genre to fit your own music, or creating something completely new.  Perhaps that is where new genres all come from.

On 12/8/2017 at 11:57 AM, ButterLettuss said:

I don't think we're likely to see any "new" genres pop up anymore because everything that already exists already falls under a genre.

However, that's only true until something new does not fit nicely into an existing category.  The next big innovation could be right around the corner...

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2 hours ago, Balor said:

However, that's only true until something new does not fit nicely into an existing category.  The next big innovation could be right around the corner...

Agreed, there will be new genres, we can't guess them.

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Another way a genre forms  sometimes they can by accidentally where some bands  combine a different sound with interesting lyrics. For example Rings of Saturn and Averisons crown are called alien core. Cause it’s deathcore with lyrics about aliens and outer space like that bands called there style a different genre as well 

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3 minutes ago, deathstorm said:

Another way a genre forms  sometimes they can by accidentally where some bands  combine a different sound with interesting lyrics. For example Rings of Saturn and Averisons crown are called alien core. Cause it’s deathcore with lyrics about aliens and outer space like that bands called there style a different genre as well 

This is true, because lyrics are sometimes the defining feature of a genre, like the Misfits (greatest band on earth BTW) invented horror punk.

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59 minutes ago, Natassja7 said:

Speaking of which..pissed cos I can't find my Earth AD cassette. Bastard.

Do you actually still have a cassette player? That's pretty cool. I have a record player. Earth A.D. is a fun album, but not really some of their best out put but I have never heard anything like it. Yeah it's hardcore, but there just something really different about it. Back in the day I actually bought this cassette about seven times because I would see it in a discount bin and think, "the Misfits shouldn't be in a discount bin," and buy it.

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4 minutes ago, Parker said:

Do you actually still have a cassette player? That's pretty cool. I have a record player. Earth A.D. is a fun album, but not really some of their best out put but I have never heard anything like it. Yeah it's hardcore, but there just something really different about it. Back in the day I actually bought this cassette about seven times because I would see it in a discount bin and think, "the Misfits shouldn't be in a discount bin," and buy it.

Yes in fact I have two. shock horror lol.

Misfits should never be in a discount bin. Ever.

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On 12/8/2017 at 6:13 AM, Will said:

I think precise subgenres are just an easy way to describe a band as accurately as possible as quickly as possible. For instance rather than saying "this band is a death metal band with lots of time signature changes, interesting song structures and unusual rhythms and melodies" you can just say "tech-death".

Oh yeah...I agree. and i tink this is the main area where sub genres take hold

On 12/8/2017 at 9:33 AM, Parker said:

Will, I totally agree. Some people get all upset about "labels," saying things like, "don't label me!" and "don't label my band!" I've always found this to be confusing and somewhat childish. Here's the thing: labels are NOUNS and without nouns we can't communicate. The anti-labeling thing is self contradictory. For example, if one says, "don't label my band," they are contradicting themselves because they themselves are labeling their own band. They put the label, "band," on their band!

Anyway, I enjoy categorizing things, especially music genres, and I find nothing wrong with it. I usually don't classify by lyrical content, but there are some exceptions. Viking metal for example, can only be so through lyrical content, because the sound of the music of vikings has been lost to time. 

I also have always been in the camp that does not mind labels. it is natural for humans to categorize things. 

sooo many of my friends in bands hate "being labeled"...they think it is an insult. I feel the opposite. When someone says, "man you guys sound like the best of DRI and Pantera", I am flattered. I am proud to say that I play in a "Crossover/thrash/punk band" Also, in my experiences, I  feel that most of the people who "hate being labeled", are that way because they are not doing anything that is truly original, but can't deal with it. I get this from so many guys in bands who just sound like mainstream schlock....but they want to feel like they are groundbreaking

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12 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

No, because genres of music are genres of music, not genres of lyrics.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk
 

But certain lyrical themes do tend to coincide with specific genres of music.

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6 hours ago, Balor said:

But certain lyrical themes do tend to coincide with specific genres of music.

I have always thought this about the different mince/grind/gore/splatter core stuff....the music is really all the same. I think the words definitely separate...well...the bands at least. Musically, it is all the same to me...this is probably one case where the words are definitely more defining of the divisions...

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I have always thought this about the different mince/grind/gore/splatter core stuff....the music is really all the same. I think the words definitely separate...well...the bands at least. Musically, it is all the same to me...this is probably one case where the words are definitely more defining of the divisions...
It's probably hard for those not familiar with grindcore to discern, but goregrind does have a different sound than standard grindcore. I don't think I've ever heard "mince" or "splatter" assigned as genres, just as tags that bands use, like Impaled Nazarene calling themselves "nuclear cyber sex metal" for fun rather than trying to create a new genre.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

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5 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

It's probably hard for those not familiar with grindcore to discern, but goregrind does have a different sound than standard grindcore. I don't think I've ever heard "mince" or "splatter" assigned as genres, just as tags that bands use, like Impaled Nazarene calling themselves "nuclear cyber sex metal" for fun rather than trying to create a new genre.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk
 

yeah, i can see that....and I have also hear Impaled Nazerene called NSBM as well...

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