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On 26/10/2017 at 9:02 AM, Tortuga said:

Granted, I have never tried the salt/sugar vibration test on any of my loud speakers while listening to metal, but it would not suprise me one bit if it is...high vibrational. Allmost all types of metal energizes me, inspires me, sets of thoughts in my mind resulting in interesting projects and ideas. Low vibrations on the other hand leaves you mind dumbed in the best of cases...depressed or physicall ill in the worst.

I'm sorry I don't mean to offend but I don't really understand what you're getting at here. I tried Googleing some key phrases (like "low vibrations cause depression") and all I could find was stuff the likes of which can be found on this sight https://raiseyourvibrationtoday.com/. Is this the kinda stuff you were talking about?

Also, what does the salt/sugar test involve?

 

I always find it hard to describe metal, I would start with something like "fast" or "aggressive" but when you include those criteria, doom metal is no longer metal. 

I would say generally, metal music is a form of hard rock music that often is less blues orientated and features loud distorted guitars, but that description is vague enough to include a lot of punk and grunge.

 

Wikipedia characterises metal "Heavy metal is traditionally characterized by loud distorted guitars, emphatic rhythms, dense bass-and-drum sound, and vigorous vocals. Metal subgenres variously emphasize, alter, or omit one or more of these attributes." 

But yet again this can be applied to punk just as easily.

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Granted, I have never tried the salt/sugar vibration test on any of my loud speakers while listening to metal, but it would not suprise me one bit if it is...high vibrational. Allmost all types of metal energizes me, inspires me, sets of thoughts in my mind resulting in interesting projects and ideas. Low vibrations on the other hand leaves you mind dumbed in the best of cases...depressed or physicall ill in the worst. So high vibrations it is!

And then there is the concept that metal is classical music gone electrical: I understand why people say that. I sense the same high vibrations in a lot of classical music, too. But now I am on the brink of getting all philosphical...over and out :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I actually ask myself this all the time. To me metal is the sound of power.  When I hear a big, doom-y power chord played through a massive high gain amp you can feel the electricity coursing through the system.  To me metal also pushes boundaries, though that doesn't always mean being heavier.  You can push boundaries through complexity, musical ability, mixing genres, among other things.  It's a musical style like rnb or rock, and I think it can be summed up as plain old power for the sake of sound.

 

The opening scream at 0:42 embodies the power I'm talking about.  An alternate could be the intro to "My Curse" by Killswitch Engage (also starting at 0:42).

 

 

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On 28/10/2017 at 4:32 AM, ButterLettuss said:

I actually ask myself this all the time. To me metal is the sound of power.  When I hear a big, doom-y power chord played through a massive high gain amp you can feel the electricity coursing through the system.  To me metal also pushes boundaries, though that doesn't always mean being heavier.  You can push boundaries through complexity, musical ability, mixing genres, among other things.  It's a musical style like rnb or rock, and I think it can be summed up as plain old power for the sake of sound.

 

The opening scream at 0:42 embodies the power I'm talking about.  An alternate could be the intro to "My Curse" by Killswitch Engage (also starting at 0:42).

 

 

Well your answer was more philosophical then scientific, not that I blame you as that's the easier means of defining the genre imo. Again though your choice of bands is at odds with the majority of people here and I hate to be that guy but kse and tbdm, along with their scenemates kind of suck.

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Usually my temptation is to say it's uptempo or in the words of absentee member AkselJ "has more notes". Obviously you're then confronted with doom metal. To be honest, my general understanding is that it's just more intense in what it sets out to do. Might be useful to ask people what they don't like about metal, and the answer I'd say is just that it's loud. Sure, you get the more contemplative fiddly kinda guys like Fleurety or Spiral Architect, but even then the quiet aspect is more a trick of production. I do think it comes down to the loudness and pitch, as other people have stated, because the only other genres that are comparable in this regard are probably electronic - i.e., industrial, dubstep or maybe trap. These genres, however, can be immediately distinguished from metal by nature, so that's not a problem.

So then, the difference between metal and rock. I might put it down to the use of palm-muted riffs. It's not like there's no use of palm muting in rock, but it's far more common in most metal music. Doom metal comes up again...well, technically if you speed doom metal up enough it either resembles other metal or perhaps rock, depending on the production. Las Cruces are pretty close to being a rock band even though they're pretty strongly doom.

I do think metal does also tend to go more for the flamboyant and/or oblique than a melody that's memorable by popular standards, so that might be worth taking into account.

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On 26/10/2017 at 11:45 AM, deathstorm said:

Metal is music that has lot of aggression  full of great bands  and some of the most  talented guitarist s ever like tommy immoi  jeff loomis  and others  that is my take on metal music 

Oh man, I love Tommy Immoi. He's great. 

I love it how we are getting all these posts about "what is such and such". Alright, I'll give it a shot: 

Metal is heavy guitar-based music of varying tempos and styles that, regardless of its sub-style, presents a relatively high impact aural experience founded in an abnormally high power-to-note quotient in relation to all or most musical components. 

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9 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

Well your answer was more philosophical then scientific, not that I blame you as that's the easier means of defining the genre imo. Again though your choice of bands is at odds with the majority of people here and I hate to be that guy but kse and tbdm, along with their scenemates kind of suck.

Can you define the genre scientifically?  I mean metal encompasses basically any tempo, any time signature and any vocal style, just played loud. Well I mean you're entitled to your opinion, and that's what discussion is all about :)  Can I ask why, in your opinion, do they suck?  TBDM specifically, I am aware of metalcore being considered a suckfest haha

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1 hour ago, ButterLettuss said:

Can you define the genre scientifically?  I mean metal encompasses basically any tempo, any time signature and any vocal style, just played loud. Well I mean you're entitled to your opinion, and that's what discussion is all about :)  Can I ask why, in your opinion, do they suck?  TBDM specifically, I am aware of metalcore being considered a suckfest haha

I agree and it's kind of why I don't feel this thread makes sense when tait asks for answers to be given that way. He is, however, our lord and master so far be it from me to question his divine methods lol.

 

Ok well with regards to TBDM they are, as I have said, a deathcore band with melodic leanings. They are taking some elements of death metal/melodic death metal, watering them down and producing an overly polished and commercially minded sound. By and large the people who like them do so for a short timeframe such as we see with kse and their ilk before moving on to the next fad/otherwise turning their back on heavier music. Far from serving as a gateway many view them as the be all and end all so far as 'metal' is concerned.

 

Also part of the frustration does stem from people confusing genres and deciding kse, bfmv, and tbdm are all melodic death metal when they really aren't.

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1 hour ago, Steve Cowan said:

I don't think it can. In some way, I don't like the idea of boiling creativity down to a formula. That's how you end up with commercial-grade music.

But it must have a definition of some sort.  Otherwise it would not be discernable from other types of music.

4 hours ago, Requiem said:

Oh man, I love Tommy Immoi. He's great. 

I love it how we are getting all these posts about "what is such and such". Alright, I'll give it a shot: 

Metal is heavy guitar-based music of varying tempos and styles that, regardless of its sub-style, presents a relatively high impact aural experience founded in an abnormally high power-to-note quotient in relation to all or most musical components. 

This seems pretty good.

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1 hour ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

Ok well with regards to TBDM they are, as I have said, a deathcore band with melodic leanings. They are taking some elements of death metal/melodic death metal, watering them down and producing an overly polished and commercially minded sound. By and large the people who like them do so for a short timeframe such as we see with kse and their ilk before moving on to the next fad/otherwise turning their back on heavier music. Far from serving as a gateway many view them as the be all and end all so far as 'metal' is concerned.

 

Also part of the frustration does stem from people confusing genres and deciding kse, bfmv, and tbdm are all melodic death metal when they really aren't.

That is fair, however they are themselves a self-proclaimed melodic death metal band, and are listed as such under multiple online sources.  I mean their influences range from necrophaghist to At The Gates.  I would say at this point it's a difference in the tastes of the listener rather than genres itself.  I would argue increased polish makes for a clearer recording which for me is a welcome thing as I enjoy being able to pick up the nuances in instrumentation.  However I know others who prefer absolutely zero production on their albums, and both have their place. I may be the outlier but I have enjoyed Killswitch Engage for over ten years. That being said I would never consider them anything close to death metal.  They are metalcore through and through, as is bfmv.

I agree with you though, subgenre confusion is a point of contention for me as I find people use genres they don't enjoy to dismiss music they don't personally like, not that you are doing that now... but we all know it does happen from time to time :)

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30 minutes ago, ButterLettuss said:

That is fair, however they are themselves a self-proclaimed melodic death metal band, and are listed as such under multiple online sources.  I mean their influences range from necrophaghist to At The Gates.  I would say at this point it's a difference in the tastes of the listener rather than genres itself.  I would argue increased polish makes for a clearer recording which for me is a welcome thing as I enjoy being able to pick up the nuances in instrumentation.  However I know others who prefer absolutely zero production on their albums, and both have their place. I may be the outlier but I have enjoyed Killswitch Engage for over ten years. That being said I would never consider them anything close to death metal.  They are metalcore through and through, as is bfmv.

I agree with you though, subgenre confusion is a point of contention for me as I find people use genres they don't enjoy to dismiss music they don't personally like, not that you are doing that now... but we all know it does happen from time to time :)

As I said in the intro thread of yours influence doesn't inform genre and the confusion of genre is not strictly reserved for casual fans. For example Metallum does list Venom as a heavy metal band primarily and not a black metal band primarily. Calling yourself something does not make you that thing. I.e bands calling themselves battle metal are not because it isn't a thing. Anyway this is stemming into an entirely different conversation.

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7 minutes ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

As I said in the intro thread of yours influence doesn't inform genre and the confusion of genre is not strictly reserved for casual fans. For example Metallum does list Venom as a heavy metal band primarily and not a black metal band primarily. Calling yourself something does not make you that thing. I.e bands calling themselves battle metal are not because it isn't a thing. Anyway this is stemming into an entirely different conversation.

Indeed it is.  Thank you for having the discussion though!  Conversations like these are why I'm here in the first place, and I hope you didn't take offence to anything I said.

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None at all, so many of us here have similar taste in music and with the community being mostly the same for four or five years now most opinions have been fully fleshed out. Having these conversations actually keeps things fresh. Plus it's much more interesting then a hilarious argument from a year or so back sparked by someone declaring black metal was not a thing and every black metal band was either a thrash band, a heavy metal band, or a death metal band.

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4 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

I agree and it's kind of why I don't feel this thread makes sense when tait asks for answers to be given that way. He is, however, our lord and master so far be it from me to question his divine methods lol.

 

Ok well with regards to TBDM they are, as I have said, a deathcore band with melodic leanings. They are taking some elements of death metal/melodic death metal, watering them down and producing an overly polished and commercially minded sound. By and large the people who like them do so for a short timeframe such as we see with kse and their ilk before moving on to the next fad/otherwise turning their back on heavier music. Far from serving as a gateway many view them as the be all and end all so far as 'metal' is concerned.

 

Also part of the frustration does stem from people confusing genres and deciding kse, bfmv, and tbdm are all melodic death metal when they really aren't.

I’m not sure these are compelling reasons to say that this guy’s favourite music sucks, which I see you have done in more than one thread now.

I’m not really a fan either but I saw The Black Dahlia Murder live and they were awesome. I can definitely see how people would love them, and the huge and dedicated crowd clearly had a genuine love for them when I was there. I don’t know if they’ve all turned their back on metal since, but I doubt it.

I seem to recall that you were unsure what TBDM even stood for a day or two ago and now you’re making grand proclamations about their music and their fans. 

I’m happy to see some fresh fans of bands like TBDM and Killswitch. Hopefully it generates some discussion outside the ‘Now playing’ thread.

 

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3 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

None at all, so many of us here have similar taste in music and with the community being mostly the same for four or five years now most opinions have been fully fleshed out. Having these conversations actually keeps things fresh. Plus it's much more interesting then a hilarious argument from a year or so back sparked by someone declaring black metal was not a thing and every black metal band was either a thrash band, a heavy metal band, or a death metal band.

I am glad you find these conversations as refreshing as I do :)  Okay that is actually really funny.  That's like saying SUVs don't exist, just trucks and cars.

47 minutes ago, Requiem said:

I’m not sure these are compelling reasons to say that this guy’s favourite music sucks, which I see you have done in more than one thread now.

I’m not really a fan either but I saw The Black Dahlia Murder live and they were awesome. I can definitely see how people would love them, and the huge and dedicated crowd clearly had a genuine love for them when I was there. I don’t know if they’ve all turned their back on metal since, but I doubt it.

I seem to recall that you were unsure what TBDM even stood for a day or two ago and now you’re making grand proclamations about their music and their fans. 

I’m happy to see some fresh fans of bands like TBDM and Killswitch. Hopefully it generates some discussion outside the ‘Now playing’ thread.

 

I appreciate that!  I'm glad you enjoyed the show when you saw them,  I find seeing any competent band live makes them a lot more appealing, even if they aren't your thing.

My friends are sick of me talking to them about music 24/7, so discussion is what I am after!

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On 27/10/2017 at 1:09 PM, Will said:

I'm sorry I don't mean to offend but I don't really understand what you're getting at here. I tried Googleing some key phrases (like "low vibrations cause depression") and all I could find was stuff the likes of which can be found on this sight https://raiseyourvibrationtoday.com/. Is this the kinda stuff you were talking about?

Also, what does the salt/sugar test involve?

 

I always find it hard to describe metal, I would start with something like "fast" or "aggressive" but when you include those criteria, doom metal is no longer metal. 

I would say generally, metal music is a form of hard rock music that often is less blues orientated and features loud distorted guitars, but that description is vague enough to include a lot of punk and grunge.

 

Wikipedia characterises metal "Heavy metal is traditionally characterized by loud distorted guitars, emphatic rhythms, dense bass-and-drum sound, and vigorous vocals. Metal subgenres variously emphasize, alter, or omit one or more of these attributes." 

But yet again this can be applied to punk just as easily.

The link gives a hint, but only a hint...it seems a bit too hippy smug for me mentioned it any further.

But as for the sugar/salt test:

Take one big loudspeaker, and stand it one one of it sides...sprinkle some table salt or sugar on the surface. Turn up the bass and see what happens...repeat with the treble. What you will see is sound/vibrations...and yes, all sound is vibrations...going visual!

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2 hours ago, Tortuga said:

The link gives a hint, but only a hint...it seems a bit too hippy smug for me mentioned it any further.

But as for the sugar/salt test:

Take one big loudspeaker, and stand it one one of it sides...sprinkle some table salt or sugar on the surface. Turn up the bass and see what happens...repeat with the treble. What you will see is sound/vibrations...and yes, all sound is vibrations...going visual!

Thanks for the explanation, I was guessing it might be something like that. 

Is it the vibrations of the salt (likely caused by the frequency of the sound waves) you're looking at or the bouncing of the salt (likely caused by the sudden changes in sound wave amplitude)?

Wouldn't that test show the salt or sugar vibrating more with a continuous high note then any kind of music? 

And wouldn't it show the salt bouncing more with a loud repetitive (straight rhythm) pattern desined to bounce the salt as soon as it returns from its last bounce (would need to be altered with amplitude)?

Would this suggest that one of these sounds is better for you than music?

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On 7/11/2017 at 9:47 PM, Will said:

Thanks for the explanation, I was guessing it might be something like that. 

Is it the vibrations of the salt (likely caused by the frequency of the sound waves) you're looking at or the bouncing of the salt (likely caused by the sudden changes in sound wave amplitude)?

Wouldn't that test show the salt or sugar vibrating more with a continuous high note then any kind of music? 

And wouldn't it show the salt bouncing more with a loud repetitive (straight rhythm) pattern desined to bounce the salt as soon as it returns from its last bounce (would need to be altered with amplitude)?

Would this suggest that one of these sounds is better for you than music?

No, I believe it is the vibrations of the sound which makes the patterns. Here is a link to a Youtube vid (sorry cannot embed the vid):

Vibration test

I think that listening to a single vibration would become extremely boring in the long run, no matter how high it is *lol* It is however proven that listening to heavy metal makes you less prone to stress, depressions, and anxiety...sounds healthy enough to me :D

 

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1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

No, I believe it is the vibrations of the sound which makes the patterns. Here is a link to a Youtube vid (sorry cannot embed the vid):

Vibration test

Oh, you're putting a plate on the speaker, finding resonance, and observing the Chladni figures,  I thought you were just putting salt on the cone and watching it bounce around. I'm pretty sure this would work considerably better with continuous singular notes (as seen in the video) rather than music of changing pitch as the changing pitch would change the position of the nodes quickly and not allow the salt to settle in them.

 

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

It is however proven that listening to heavy metal makes you less prone to stress, depressions, and anxiety...sounds healthy enough to me :D

I couldn't find much conclusive proof of this but...

It's less good at relieving stress than self-selected music or classical music (although, in our case, metal would be our self-selected music, so it'll work just fine for us) https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10484-007-9043-9

"the use of music for vicarious release was inversely related to suicidal risk for girls" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1010492128537?LI=true -a relation for one gender, that's something but not really proof of cause and effect.

"Studies have found a relationship between various genres of music and antisocial behaviours, vulnerability to suicide, and drug use. However, studies reject that music is a causal factor and suggest that music preference is more indicative of emotional vulnerability." http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10398560701879589

"The findings indicate that extreme music did not make angry participants angrier; rather, it appeared to match their physiological arousal and result in an increase in positive emotions. Listening to extreme music may represent a healthy way of processing anger for these listeners" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4439552/

So, it is good for you if you're a fan.

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