first wave vs second wave

[Balor]

4 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

Black metal is Venom, Venom is black metal. At least until At War With Satan, the darker chord progressions and note selections they used paired with their aggression created a dark and black atmosphere, which bands like Bathory, Sodom, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Bulldozer, etc... grabbed onto and pushed in even darker directions. Second wave black metal is black metal because although new elements were introduced, it still retained the black metal sound of the originators, at least early on. Bands like Dark Funeral and Enthroned stripped those elements away entirely, with no connection to the roots of black metal. It's this disconnect due to focus on the second wave Scandinavian scene that seems to mislead people about the true nature of black metal, with many incorrectly assuming that it's these new elements introduced in the second wave that make the music they're hearing "black". When they listen back to the first wave, they don't hear those abundant tremolo riffs and treble heavy production, not shrieking vocals, and want to call it something other than what it is. It seems a simple misunderstanding, but it's a bit ironic that those who zealously cling to thing false interpretation are newer fans who aren't that familiar with the genre, but often aren't open to being educated by more experienced fans. 

So black metal is, in essence, dark and atmospheric sounding metal?

[Vampyrique]

1 hour ago, BlutAusNerd said:

I like the first Dark Funeral album once in a while when the mood strikes me, but I have yet to hear a more repetitious or tiresome black metal band from Sweden. They basically slide the same chords around the fret board to the same drum beat with one dimensional vocals, and somehow people keep buying album after album of essentially the exact same songs. I don't hear much that could link them to the first wave, just the exaggerated and self-parodying elements of the second wave taken to their logical extremes. That's not to say it's not entirely black metal, but I do tend to prefer the pejorative term "norsecore" to describe bands like Dark Funeral and Enthroned because it more closely resembles hyperblasting grindcore than the black metal of old. 

The influences are there but their masturbatory tendencies led them to producing an evermore concentrated formula of that Dark Funeral sound that they had, in their minds, perfected early on. Believe me, I understand the criticism they get. I don't care to delineate too much and label bands with pejoratives, but they do play standard Swedish black metal. And regardless of how unoriginal they may be, you know Dark Funeral when you hear it.

Marduk takes a lot of heat too for 'norsecore' but their catalogue is actually pretty diverse contrary to what their detractors say.

When Dark Funeral mix it up it works well but that's pretty rare. Attera Totus Sanctus was musically more diversified than their other albums but the vocals sounded off. It was as if Caligula was trying to sound like Maniac but with strained vocal cords. And the song/video for My Funeral was excellent and proved that they are capable of writing worthwhile slow and engaging songs but the rest of that album was standard Dark Funeral. 

[BlutAusNerd]

19 hours ago, Vampyrique said:

The influences are there but their masturbatory tendencies led them to producing an evermore concentrated formula of that Dark Funeral sound that they had, in their minds, perfected early on. Believe me, I understand the criticism they get. I don't care to delineate too much and label bands with pejoratives, but they do play standard Swedish black metal. And regardless of how unoriginal they may be, you know Dark Funeral when you hear it.

Marduk takes a lot of heat too for 'norsecore' but their catalogue is actually pretty diverse contrary to what their detractors say.

When Dark Funeral mix it up it works well but that's pretty rare. Attera Totus Sanctus was musically more diversified than their other albums but the vocals sounded off. It was as if Caligula was trying to sound like Maniac but with strained vocal cords. And the song/video for My Funeral was excellent and proved that they are capable of writing worthwhile slow and engaging songs but the rest of that album was standard Dark Funeral. 

Marduk does get unfair heat for that, especially since they really only played in that model during the Legion era. Prior to that, they were pioneering second wave Swedish black metal, which I would call the "standard" sound as opposed to the Dark Funeral sound. Some of those early bands morphed into blasturbatory self-parody, and bands like Dark Funeral, Setherial, and mid-period Marduk still used Swedish melodies, but presented them in a different way without the dynamic and rhythmic range of the more standard Swedish sound. And yes, while Attera had one or two songs that were a bit outside the norm for Dark Funeral, those vocals are fucking awful. Maniac sounds in control when he's in that range, but on tracks like 666 Voices Inside, Magus sounds like a cat getting raped. 

I get the appeal, and I used to like the band a lot more than I do now, but the novelty faded quickly for me. I can still get into the blast + satan formula on the debut once in a while, but it's tiresome to me at this point. For my money, Marduk and Setherial played the sound a lot better when they were going for a similar result, and the former was a great deal better live too. 

20 hours ago, Balor said:

So black metal is, in essence, dark and atmospheric sounding metal?

It's not quite so broad as that, there are a range of specific sounds to it, but yes. It's a combination of songwriting factors that create a black metal atmosphere, which can be done a number of ways, but I hear it most in certain chord progressions, note selections, and riffing patterns. 

[Vampyrique]

3 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

Marduk does get unfair heat for that, especially since they really only played in that model during the Legion era. Prior to that, they were pioneering second wave Swedish black metal, which I would call the "standard" sound as opposed to the Dark Funeral sound. Some of those early bands morphed into blasturbatory self-parody, and bands like Dark Funeral, Setherial, and mid-period Marduk still used Swedish melodies, but presented them in a different way without the dynamic and rhythmic range of the more standard Swedish sound. And yes, while Attera had one or two songs that were a bit outside the norm for Dark Funeral, those vocals are fucking awful. Maniac sounds in control when he's in that range, but on tracks like 666 Voices Inside, Magus sounds like a cat getting raped. 

I get the appeal, and I used to like the band a lot more than I do now, but the novelty faded quickly for me. I can still get into the blast + satan formula on the debut once in a while, but it's tiresome to me at this point. For my money, Marduk and Setherial played the sound a lot better when they were going for a similar result, and the former was a great deal better live too. 

It's not quite so broad as that, there are a range of specific sounds to it, but yes. It's a combination of songwriting factors that create a black metal atmosphere, which can be done a number of ways, but I hear it most in certain chord progressions, note selections, and riffing patterns. 

I tend to group bands like Dissection, Marduk, Dark Funeral, Setherial (etc.) together under a shared banner that typifies the Swedish black metal or black/death metal sound. Sure, they’re different and vary in terms of quality but they aren’t so unlike one another; being a product of location or influence, the similarities are there. It’s just that Dark Funeral and Setherial tend to occupy one extreme end of the spectrum and one that tends to be less favourable to many black metal fans and understandably so.  

With Marduk, I think their best albums are Dark Endless, Those of the Unlight, Rom 5:12 and perhaps Plague Angel. I didn’t mind the villified Panzer Division Marduk because they were a prolific band producing many albums in a short period time and they deliberately pursued the idea of devoting one album to a quick but unalloyed, unrelenting brutal assault. I’m not sure what Dark Funeral’s excuse is with the amount of time between albums. Setherial’s debut is actually pretty good, different from their later stuff.    
 

[BlutAusNerd]

5 hours ago, Vampyrique said:

I tend to group bands like Dissection, Marduk, Dark Funeral, Setherial (etc.) together under a shared banner that typifies the Swedish black metal or black/death metal sound. Sure, they’re different and vary in terms of quality but they aren’t so unlike one another; being a product of location or influence, the similarities are there. It’s just that Dark Funeral and Setherial tend to occupy one extreme end of the spectrum and one that tends to be less favourable to many black metal fans and understandably so.  

With Marduk, I think their best albums are Dark Endless, Those of the Unlight, Rom 5:12 and perhaps Plague Angel. I didn’t mind the villified Panzer Division Marduk because they were a prolific band producing many albums in a short period time and they deliberately pursued the idea of devoting one album to a quick but unalloyed, unrelenting brutal assault. I’m not sure what Dark Funeral’s excuse is with the amount of time between albums. Setherial’s debut is actually pretty good, different from their later stuff.    
 

If you're grouping them by scene and melodic tendencies, then this makes sense. I tend to look more at their riffing style and songwriting tone, which puts bands like Dissection, Mörk Gryning, and Sacramentum in a different category, with bands like Setherial (on their debut at least), Midvinter, and Necrophobic occupying a middle ground between the blasty excesses of Dark Funeral and mid-period Marduk and the more expansive and somewhat epic territory of the melodic bands of the time. To be clear, it's not that the norsecore sound can't be pulled off, as Panzer Division Marduk is pretty decent (a lot better than Heaven Shall Burn anyway), but it faces an uphill battle due to its tedious nature. At least Marduk had the good sense to employ some brevity on that album to help it from overstaying its welcome too much. 

I would agree that Marduk peaked with Those of the Unlight. The Af Grav fronted era was Marduk at their most dynamic and interesting, and also their most atmospheric and dark since the Legion era comes off as cheesy much of the time. I would also say that they rebounded big time when he was replaced by Mortuus, as his vocals are much more varied and personal, and they mixed some actual riffs back into their formula along with their blazing speed. I don't have Rom 5:12, but I saw them on that tour, and they were devastating. Plague Angel is the only newer album that I have from them, and it kicks ass. 

[Vampyrique]

On 8/28/2017 at 6:56 PM, BlutAusNerd said:

If you're grouping them by scene and melodic tendencies, then this makes sense. I tend to look more at their riffing style and songwriting tone, which puts bands like Dissection, Mörk Gryning, and Sacramentum in a different category, with bands like Setherial (on their debut at least), Midvinter, and Necrophobic occupying a middle ground between the blasty excesses of Dark Funeral and mid-period Marduk and the more expansive and somewhat epic territory of the melodic bands of the time. To be clear, it's not that the norsecore sound can't be pulled off, as Panzer Division Marduk is pretty decent (a lot better than Heaven Shall Burn anyway), but it faces an uphill battle due to its tedious nature. At least Marduk had the good sense to employ some brevity on that album to help it from overstaying its welcome too much. 

I would agree that Marduk peaked with Those of the Unlight. The Af Grav fronted era was Marduk at their most dynamic and interesting, and also their most atmospheric and dark since the Legion era comes off as cheesy much of the time. I would also say that they rebounded big time when he was replaced by Mortuus, as his vocals are much more varied and personal, and they mixed some actual riffs back into their formula along with their blazing speed. I don't have Rom 5:12, but I saw them on that tour, and they were devastating. Plague Angel is the only newer album that I have from them, and it kicks ass. 

I suppose I don't differentiate on a level as specific as you do, likely because I'm not a musician. I tend to group bands together on a general impression that I get which can include many things like riffs and songwriting but also vocal technique, atmosphere, speed and aggression, melodicism, production (etc) and the level of commonalities that may exist between the bands. For example, as you know the Swedish sound differs greatly from the Norwegian sound. In general Swedish black metal has cleaner production, is more aggressive and/or melodic, borrows a lot musically from (Swedish) death metal, has less atmosphere and less outside influences like folk and so on. I'm sure you can agree that when you listen to a band you can tell if they're Swedish simply based on their overall style even if you do not know their origin. 

I agree with you about Marduk's trajectory. Those of the Unlight is certainly an interesting album with lots of variety and atmosphere. Unfortunately, I thought Opus Nocturne was a weak follow-up. Nevertheless, I do generally like Marduk's entire catalogue (some obviously more than others) and the line-up changes and different directions they went in make for an interesting journey.   

I recommend you check out Rom 5:12. It could be my favourite but at the very least, it really is one of their best. It sounds like the same band that did Plague Angel but on Rom 5:12 Marduk is operating at a slower pace if you can believe it. Some people may find it boring but when it came out I found it incredibly refreshing and this really re-ignited my interest in the band. They also brought some feeling and atmosphere in, at times, a rather death-ridden funereal form.  

 

[Requiem]

I don't know. Albums like 'Plague Angel' and 'Rom 5:12' are pretty cool, but I also find them a little - not boring exactly - but not quite as engaging as some of their other works. People praise Mortuus to the heavens and I understand why, because he's pretty authentic, but I find the overly serious approach the band seems to be taking as a bit limited. I also actually find some of the guitar melodies to be fairly underwhelming on both of those albums and I'm not sure Morgan is fully inspired. Same with 'Wormwood' a little bit. It's like Morgan suddenly decided to be more extreme and hard than the next band for some reason and got a bit monochromatic at the same time. I can't say I listen to those albums much at all these days. 

I own most of the Marduk albums and my favourite album of theirs is 'World Funeral' and I'll explain why. Firstly, I love Legion's voice, unlike apparently everyone else. His growls and howls just do it for me. Also, the variety of songs on this album keeps everything really fresh. There's life amidst the death. But there's also a darkness running through this that appeals to me sort of in the same way that 'Reinkaos' by Dissection does. The albums are very different of course, but I find something that speaks to me in both of those albums that a lot of other people dismiss. On 'World Funeral' tracks like 'Bleached Bones' and the other slow songs just nail it for me. I'm like, "Fuck yes, this is it!" The melodies and production are just Requiem made. 

I also really love 'Panzer Division Marduk'. That's a fun little record and no mistake. Their new one is really good too, 'Frontschwein'. I'd take any of these albums over 'Plague Angel' and 'Rom 5:12'. 

[Balor]

10 hours ago, Requiem said:

I don't know. Albums like 'Plague Angel' and 'Rom 5:12' are pretty cool, but I also find them a little - not boring exactly - but not quite as engaging as some of their other works. People praise Mortuus to the heavens and I understand why, because he's pretty authentic, but I find the overly serious approach the band seems to be taking as a bit limited. I also actually find some of the guitar melodies to be fairly underwhelming on both of those albums and I'm not sure Morgan is fully inspired. Same with 'Wormwood' a little bit. It's like Morgan suddenly decided to be more extreme and hard than the next band for some reason and got a bit monochromatic at the same time. I can't say I listen to those albums much at all these days. 

I own most of the Marduk albums and my favourite album of theirs is 'World Funeral' and I'll explain why. Firstly, I love Legion's voice, unlike apparently everyone else. His growls and howls just do it for me. Also, the variety of songs on this album keeps everything really fresh. There's life amidst the death. But there's also a darkness running through this that appeals to me sort of in the same way that 'Reinkaos' by Dissection does. The albums are very different of course, but I find something that speaks to me in both of those albums that a lot of other people dismiss. On 'World Funeral' tracks like 'Bleached Bones' and the other slow songs just nail it for me. I'm like, "Fuck yes, this is it!" The melodies and production are just Requiem made. 

I also really love 'Panzer Division Marduk'. That's a fun little record and no mistake. Their new one is really good too, 'Frontschwein'. I'd take any of these albums over 'Plague Angel' and 'Rom 5:12'. 

"World Funeral" was very good, and I agree with you that the slow songs were cool.  I especially liked "To the Death's Head True."

[BlutAusNerd]

On 9/1/2017 at 10:39 PM, Requiem said:

I don't know. Albums like 'Plague Angel' and 'Rom 5:12' are pretty cool, but I also find them a little - not boring exactly - but not quite as engaging as some of their other works. People praise Mortuus to the heavens and I understand why, because he's pretty authentic, but I find the overly serious approach the band seems to be taking as a bit limited. I also actually find some of the guitar melodies to be fairly underwhelming on both of those albums and I'm not sure Morgan is fully inspired. Same with 'Wormwood' a little bit. It's like Morgan suddenly decided to be more extreme and hard than the next band for some reason and got a bit monochromatic at the same time. I can't say I listen to those albums much at all these days. 

I own most of the Marduk albums and my favourite album of theirs is 'World Funeral' and I'll explain why. Firstly, I love Legion's voice, unlike apparently everyone else. His growls and howls just do it for me. Also, the variety of songs on this album keeps everything really fresh. There's life amidst the death. But there's also a darkness running through this that appeals to me sort of in the same way that 'Reinkaos' by Dissection does. The albums are very different of course, but I find something that speaks to me in both of those albums that a lot of other people dismiss. On 'World Funeral' tracks like 'Bleached Bones' and the other slow songs just nail it for me. I'm like, "Fuck yes, this is it!" The melodies and production are just Requiem made. 

I also really love 'Panzer Division Marduk'. That's a fun little record and no mistake. Their new one is really good too, 'Frontschwein'. I'd take any of these albums over 'Plague Angel' and 'Rom 5:12'. 

The Mortuus albums are "monochromatic"? They're a whole lot more varied than the likes of Heaven Shall Burn or Panzer Division Marduk to my ears. World Funeral might be a bit more varied, but only by comparison to the rest of the Legion era. Even then, they did have the occasional slow song during that time, like the last track on Heaven Shall Burn, which happens to be the best song on that album IMO. Plague Angel doesn't wildly vary from this formula, but the hyperspeed riffs sound a lot more engaging to me, and the wild and feral vocals of Mortuus electrify the songs in a way that Legion never could. I can't say that I hate him outright, I just have to wonder why both him and Marduk thought it was a good idea to basically use one tone, one tempo, one riffing style, one drumbeat, etc... throughout several albums. Legion sounded pretty good on Ophthalamia's Via Dolorosa, proving that he does have some range, he just failed to use it when he joined Marduk, just as the band seemed to forget about using different kinds of songs on their albums after Opus Nocturne.