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first wave vs second wave


jammyjude

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So is the point of this thread to discuss whether we like first or second wave black metal more?  If so, I would definitely have to go with second wave, as it encompassed the first real black metal bands.  While the first wave has some good music, none of it is truly black metal, but rather a collection of bands that all contributed sounds, imagery, and themes to the musical movement that would eventually become black metal.  It was not until bands like Mayhem, Burzum, and Emperor came along that the modern conception of black metal was created.

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1 hour ago, Balor said:

So is the point of this thread to discuss whether we like first or second wave black metal more?  If so, I would definitely have to go with second wave, as it encompassed the first real black metal bands.  While the first wave has some good music, none of it is truly black metal, but rather a collection of bands that all contributed sounds, imagery, and themes to the musical movement that would eventually become black metal.  It was not until bands like Mayhem, Burzum, and Emperor came along that the modern conception of black metal was created.

...except that none of that is true. Historical revisionism by the teenagers of the internet age strikes again!

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I'm definitely voting second wave, but only based on my taste for the music rather than any labelling dispute. 

The early material from the likes of Emperor and Satyricon remains for me very special. Not to mention Mayhem, Dissection, Burzum, Darkthrone. Then there are bands like Shining, Drudkh, and Marduk. 

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2 hours ago, Balor said:

Well... then enlighten me.

First wave black metal is black metal, the original black metal, without which there would be no black metal for there to have been a second wave of it. To say that it's not "real" or "true" black metal is a logical fallacy, and the second wave should be evaluated based on the first wave that pioneered the genre and not the other way around. 

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3 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

First wave black metal is black metal, the original black metal, without which there would be no black metal for there to have been a second wave of it. To say that it's not "real" or "true" black metal is a logical fallacy, and the second wave should be evaluated based on the first wave that pioneered the genre and not the other way around. 

While the first wave may have pioneered the genre, the second wave certainly epitomized what is now understood as black metal.  It was during the second wave that tremolo picking, blast beats, screeched vocals, and black metal imagery were all combined together in their most recognizable forms.  If black metal were judged according to the first wave, then the metric would be closer to speed metal.

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3 hours ago, Balor said:

While the first wave may have pioneered the genre, the second wave certainly epitomized what is now understood as black metal.  It was during the second wave that tremolo picking, blast beats, screeched vocals, and black metal imagery were all combined together in their most recognizable forms.  If black metal were judged according to the first wave, then the metric would be closer to speed metal.

Black metal already existed in the 80s. Sure, it was defined moreso thematically but that was the meaning behind attaching the descriptor 'black' to metal. It doesn't matter how it is understood today by the average person because trends come and go and mean nothing if the historical context is ignored or forgotten. It wouldn't surprise me if the common understanding keeps changing slightly, as it has been, to encompass even more outside influences in order to keep the genre sounding new and exciting without simply regurgitating bands of the past. I mean, isn't Deafheaven and Liturgy already considered black metal by newer generations of black metal fans? 

I posted some comments when this issue was brought up in another thread but I don't feel like repeating everything. I think you just need to research the first wave more thoroughly. Listen to Bathory's 1987 album Under the Sign of the Black Mark, one of the foremost utilized black metal templates. The Norwegians didn't really create anything new, rather they sought to deliberately to shift the focus away from the burgeoning, 'trendy' and 'commercial' death metal scene that seemingly embraced clean production and mainstream exposure. They all quit playing death metal and, driven by their echo chamber of elitist attitudes, collectively decided to pay homage to the ugly, raw and 'evil' black metal of the 80s, and for many reasons this led to black metal becoming en vogue. To their credit they did give black metal a new flavour so to speak but the elements were already in existence. 

Even if, for some bias or reason, you don't want to give 80s bands (that encompassed other styles as well) the credit you can look to other bands whom played a style of black metal close enough to the second wave (Norwegian) sound but did so even before the Norwegians. Listen to Ritual by Master's Hammer, released in 1991. There are other examples too but you would probably find it more rewarding if you did the research yourself. Simultaneously to the Norwegian scene, the Greek black metal scene was developing. The Norwegian scene won out above all because it gathered far more media attention and exposure and under its pall of influence the Norwegian bands and their rhetoric were mimicked ad nauseam so that black metal became most synonymous with them.  

 

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6 hours ago, Balor said:

While the first wave may have pioneered the genre, the second wave certainly epitomized what is now understood as black metal.  It was during the second wave that tremolo picking, blast beats, screeched vocals, and black metal imagery were all combined together in their most recognizable forms.  If black metal were judged according to the first wave, then the metric would be closer to speed metal.

Blast beats, tremolo picking, and screechy vocals aren't requirements of black metal, nor are they unique to it. All of these elements can be found in other genres of metal, and black metal can be and is often produced without those elements. Even then, all of those elements were introduced to the genre during the first wave, several years before the Norwegian bands jumped on the black metal bandwagon. Sure, new elements were added by the inception of the second wave, something that is to be expected 10 years after the genre's birth, just as some large changes occurred within every metal genre between its birth and its later evolutionary stages. 

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This old doozy again. There are some pretty compelling arguments presented for the validation of the first wave as true black metal, and I'm convinced. But I do also understand what Balor means. @Balor, have a look at the 'First Wave of the First Wave' thread.  

Regarding my preference for the second wave:

I think what the second wave did in terms of innovation involved the grand scale inculcation of nature worship into the music, which is something that really resonates with me personally. I think the Scandinavian bands of the second wave really stand out in that they took the first wave template and applied it to the natural environment that they saw around them (forests, frost, snow, mountains etc), and when they combined those two elements they struck upon this almost romantic spiritual notion that propels the music beyond the spikes and hellfire of the thrashy first wave.

Of course I'm generalising here, and there will no doubt be a dozen examples of first wave bands doing this too, knowing BlutAusNerd, but I'm sure you all know what I mean. Add to this the norse/viking undertones and you have a pretty special nexus of great things happening in the second wave.  

My favourite black metal albums to this day are fairly well known examples of this nexus of first wave, nature and norse:

Satyricon - 'The Shadowthrone'

Emperor - 'In the Nightside Eclipse'

Darkthrone - 'A Blaze in the Northern Sky'

Burzum - 'Filosofem' 

Ulver - the trilogy

Enslaved - 'Frost' 

Even an album like Immortal's 'Battles in the North' (which is pretty hard to pin down thematically due to the google translate style lyrics based around the fantasy Blashyrkh world or whatever) features the lads standing out on a snow covered mountain and songs about frostbitten kingdoms. As a 15 year old back in 1995 that really got me excited, let me tell you. 

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On 8/22/2017 at 8:47 PM, BlutAusNerd said:

Blast beats, tremolo picking, and screechy vocals aren't requirements of black metal, nor are they unique to it. All of these elements can be found in other genres of metal, and black metal can be and is often produced without those elements. Even then, all of those elements were introduced to the genre during the first wave, several years before the Norwegian bands jumped on the black metal bandwagon. Sure, new elements were added by the inception of the second wave, something that is to be expected 10 years after the genre's birth, just as some large changes occurred within every metal genre between its birth and its later evolutionary stages. 

Since my definition is incorrect, how would you define black metal? (I am honestly asking this question, I am not just trying to prop up my argument that was evidently incorrect.)

 

6 hours ago, Requiem said:

This old doozy again. There are some pretty compelling arguments presented for the validation of the first wave as true black metal, and I'm convinced. But I do also understand what Balor means. @Balor, have a look at the 'First Wave of the First Wave' thread.  

Regarding my preference for the second wave:

I think what the second wave did in terms of innovation involved the grand scale inculcation of nature worship into the music, which is something that really resonates with me personally. I think the Scandinavian bands of the second wave really stand out in that they took the first wave template and applied it to the natural environment that they saw around them (forests, frost, snow, mountains etc), and when they combined those two elements they struck upon this almost romantic spiritual notion that propels the music beyond the spikes and hellfire of the thrashy first wave.

Of course I'm generalising here, and there will no doubt be a dozen examples of first wave bands doing this too, knowing BlutAusNerd, but I'm sure you all know what I mean. Add to this the norse/viking undertones and you have a pretty special nexus of great things happening in the second wave.  

My favourite black metal albums to this day are fairly well known examples of this nexus of first wave, nature and norse:

Satyricon - 'The Shadowthrone'

Emperor - 'In the Nightside Eclipse'

Darkthrone - 'A Blaze in the Northern Sky'

Burzum - 'Filosofem' 

Ulver - the trilogy

Enslaved - 'Frost' 

Even an album like Immortal's 'Battles in the North' (which is pretty hard to pin down thematically due to the google translate style lyrics based around the fantasy Blashyrkh world or whatever) features the lads standing out on a snow covered mountain and songs about frostbitten kingdoms. As a 15 year old back in 1995 that really got me excited, let me tell you. 

I will take a look at the thread, thanks.  Good list too.  Is the trilogy by Ulver just their first three albums (like Bergtatt)?

 

On 8/22/2017 at 5:38 PM, Vampyrique said:

Black metal already existed in the 80s. Sure, it was defined moreso thematically but that was the meaning behind attaching the descriptor 'black' to metal. It doesn't matter how it is understood today by the average person because trends come and go and mean nothing if the historical context is ignored or forgotten. It wouldn't surprise me if the common understanding keeps changing slightly, as it has been, to encompass even more outside influences in order to keep the genre sounding new and exciting without simply regurgitating bands of the past. I mean, isn't Deafheaven and Liturgy already considered black metal by newer generations of black metal fans? 

I posted some comments when this issue was brought up in another thread but I don't feel like repeating everything. I think you just need to research the first wave more thoroughly. Listen to Bathory's 1987 album Under the Sign of the Black Mark, one of the foremost utilized black metal templates. The Norwegians didn't really create anything new, rather they sought to deliberately to shift the focus away from the burgeoning, 'trendy' and 'commercial' death metal scene that seemingly embraced clean production and mainstream exposure. They all quit playing death metal and, driven by their echo chamber of elitist attitudes, collectively decided to pay homage to the ugly, raw and 'evil' black metal of the 80s, and for many reasons this led to black metal becoming en vogue. To their credit they did give black metal a new flavour so to speak but the elements were already in existence. 

Even if, for some bias or reason, you don't want to give 80s bands (that encompassed other styles as well) the credit you can look to other bands whom played a style of black metal close enough to the second wave (Norwegian) sound but did so even before the Norwegians. Listen to Ritual by Master's Hammer, released in 1991. There are other examples too but you would probably find it more rewarding if you did the research yourself. Simultaneously to the Norwegian scene, the Greek black metal scene was developing. The Norwegian scene won out above all because it gathered far more media attention and exposure and under its pall of influence the Norwegian bands and their rhetoric were mimicked ad nauseam so that black metal became most synonymous with them.  

 

Thanks for the listening suggestion, I will try to listen to it as soon as possible.

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3 hours ago, Balor said:

 

I will take a look at the thread, thanks.  Good list too.  Is the trilogy by Ulver just their first three albums (like Bergtatt)?

 

Yeah, I was referring to 'Bergtatt', 'Nattens Madrigal' and 'Kveldssanger' as a package of very nature based albums. 

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52 minutes ago, Requiem said:

Yeah, I was referring to 'Bergtatt', 'Nattens Madrigal' and 'Kveldssanger' as a package of very nature based albums. 

I just listened to Bergtatt in its entirety for the first time a few weeks ago.  It is an amazing album, and I credit the opening track (I think that is the one) for getting me into black metal.

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3 hours ago, Balor said:

I just listened to Bergtatt in its entirety for the first time a few weeks ago.  It is an amazing album, and I credit the opening track (I think that is the one) for getting me into black metal.

Each of the three albums I listed is really different in style but they complement each other perfectly. That's why they're sometimes referred to as a trilogy. 

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10 hours ago, Requiem said:

Each of the three albums I listed is really different in style but they complement each other perfectly. That's why they're sometimes referred to as a trilogy. 

Cool, I will have to try and listen to them in order.  What style do they shift to in the latter two?

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Kveldssanger drops black metal entirely in favour of folkly acoustic-oriented songs. There's only clean vocals and less vocals in general. 

Nattens Madrigal is the exact opposite. This album embraces distortion, harsh vocals and was a deliberate attempt to play pure, straight-forward black metal. 

Bergtatt is easily the best of the trilogy in my view. 

 

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31 minutes ago, Vampyrique said:

Kveldssanger drops black metal entirely in favour of folkly acoustic-oriented songs. There's only clean vocals and less vocals in general. 

Nattens Madrigal is the exact opposite. This album embraces distortion, harsh vocals and was a deliberate attempt to play pure, straight-forward black metal. 

Bergtatt is easily the best of the trilogy in my view. 

 

Cool, thanks.  They all sound interesting.

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5 hours ago, Balor said:

Cool, thanks.  They all sound interesting.

Vampyrique is right about the styles, and 'Bergtatt' probably is the best, but the other two are great in their own way. 'Kveldssanger' isn't a black metal album if we're being strict about it, but it has the vibe for sure and fits perfectly with the other two. 'Nattens Madrigal' is black metal incarnate, with each song being an ode to the wolf. 

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On 8/25/2017 at 1:33 PM, Balor said:

Since my definition is incorrect, how would you define black metal? (I am honestly asking this question, I am not just trying to prop up my argument that was evidently incorrect.)

Black metal is Venom, Venom is black metal. At least until At War With Satan, the darker chord progressions and note selections they used paired with their aggression created a dark and black atmosphere, which bands like Bathory, Sodom, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Bulldozer, etc... grabbed onto and pushed in even darker directions. Second wave black metal is black metal because although new elements were introduced, it still retained the black metal sound of the originators, at least early on. Bands like Dark Funeral and Enthroned stripped those elements away entirely, with no connection to the roots of black metal. It's this disconnect due to focus on the second wave Scandinavian scene that seems to mislead people about the true nature of black metal, with many incorrectly assuming that it's these new elements introduced in the second wave that make the music they're hearing "black". When they listen back to the first wave, they don't hear those abundant tremolo riffs and treble heavy production, not shrieking vocals, and want to call it something other than what it is. It seems a simple misunderstanding, but it's a bit ironic that those who zealously cling to thing false interpretation are newer fans who aren't that familiar with the genre, but often aren't open to being educated by more experienced fans. 

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I don't think it's entirely fair to say that Dark Funeral and Enthroned have no connection to the roots of black metal. In general, Swedish black metal greatly resembles Swedish death metal but it is also infused with first wave black metal influences. Dark Funeral are not just influenced by Swedish bands before them like Dissection, Marduk (etc) but also by Bathory, Sodom, and Mayhem. Dark Funeral are a pretty decent band but very one dimensional. I don't know much about Enthroned beyond their early stuff but I would put them in a similar category. 

 

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2 hours ago, Vampyrique said:

I don't think it's entirely fair to say that Dark Funeral and Enthroned have no connection to the roots of black metal. In general, Swedish black metal greatly resembles Swedish death metal but it is also infused with first wave black metal influences. Dark Funeral are not just influenced by Swedish bands before them like Dissection, Marduk (etc) but also by Bathory, Sodom, and Mayhem. Dark Funeral are a pretty decent band but very one dimensional. I don't know much about Enthroned beyond their early stuff but I would put them in a similar category. 

 

I like the first Dark Funeral album once in a while when the mood strikes me, but I have yet to hear a more repetitious or tiresome black metal band from Sweden. They basically slide the same chords around the fret board to the same drum beat with one dimensional vocals, and somehow people keep buying album after album of essentially the exact same songs. I don't hear much that could link them to the first wave, just the exaggerated and self-parodying elements of the second wave taken to their logical extremes. That's not to say it's not entirely black metal, but I do tend to prefer the pejorative term "norsecore" to describe bands like Dark Funeral and Enthroned because it more closely resembles hyperblasting grindcore than the black metal of old. 

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