First Wave of the First Wave?

[BlutAusNerd]

I disagree with the term "first wave black metal." The appropriate term would be "proto-black metal," because the bands that are referred to as the first wave are the bands that influenced the genre and laid out its different elements. But these bands had pretty much nothing to do with each other, and while Bathory did have the basic black metal sound down and Sarcofago were halfway there, bands like Mercyful Fate, Celtic Frost, and Venom sound almost nothing like black metal (and I say that as a huge Celtic Frost fan). I advocate for the term "proto-black metal" because their relationship with black metal almost perfectly mirrors the relationship between punk and "proto-punk" bands like The Stooges, The Velvet Underground, MC5, New York Dolls, etc. - the elements were there, but it took bands like Darkthrone and Mayhem to put them together. 

 

One big issue with the term is that it takes these bands out of their cultural/artistic context. The most obvious victim of this is Venom. The first two Venom albums are awesomely raw and cathartic, but if you see their antics and visuals, they look ridiculous in an almost Spinal Tap-like way. This becomes even more glaring when you compare them to bands like Celtic Frost or Bathory. But doing so is unfair, because those aren't really their contemporaries. Venom came out of Britain at the same time as NWOBHM bands like Saxon, who were visually and theatrically every bit as ridiculous as Venom, if not moreso. Compare Venom to those bands, and they're actually notably less bloated and more raw. 

 

Nonsense. First wave black metal bands are connected by their black metal music, which was the inspiration for the second wave of black metal. You're looking at it backwards, Darkthrone and Mayhem should be measured up to the first wave bands that spawned the sound that they advanced (the former of which uses almost exclusively Celtic Frost and Bathory riffs in their most well known albums), not the other way around. That's not really any different from saying that Death isn't black metal because they don't sound like Cryptopsy, when Cryptopsy is only death metal because Death and others explored it first.

 

Regarding the image of Venom, they're hardly the only black metal band with over-the-top looks and antics. The second wave of black metal has been parodied ad nauseum due to exactly that, so it's safe to say that over-the-top theatrics are part and parcel to the black metal package. As far as looking at their scene for reference, typically I would say that this is a good starting point, but Venom are quite different from the NWOBHM bands whose scene they emerged from, much like Possessed setting themselves apart from the thrash scene despite being a Bay Area band, or Saint Vitus popping up in Southern California amid the hardcore punk boom and being signed to a hardcore punk label. The music is the most crucial identifying factor, and the music of Bathory and Celtic Frost makes them disciples of and contemporaries to Venom, as well as almost every other first wave black metal band. If you look at the whole first wave of black metal, how it evolved, and where the second wave of black metal emerged from it, the lineage is pretty clear.

 

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[Amebix]

48 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

 

Nonsense. First wave black metal bands are connected by their black metal music, which was the inspiration for the second wave of black metal. You're looking at it backwards, Darkthrone and Mayhem should be measured up to the first wave bands that spawned the sound that they advanced (the former of which uses almost exclusively Celtic Frost and Bathory riffs in their most well known albums), not the other way around. That's not really any different from saying that Death isn't black metal because they don't sound like Cryptopsy, when Cryptopsy is only death metal because Death and others explored it first.

 

Regarding the image of Venom, they're hardly the only black metal band with over-the-top looks and antics. The second wave of black metal has been parodied ad nauseum due to exactly that, so it's safe to say that over-the-top theatrics are part and parcel to the black metal package. As far as looking at their scene for reference, typically I would say that this is a good starting point, but Venom are quite different from the NWOBHM bands whose scene they emerged from, much like Possessed setting themselves apart from the thrash scene despite being a Bay Area band, or Saint Vitus popping up in Southern California amid the hardcore punk boom and being signed to a hardcore punk label. The music is the most crucial identifying factor, and the music of Bathory and Celtic Frost makes them disciples of and contemporaries to Venom, as well as almost every other first wave black metal band. If you look at the whole first wave of black metal, how it evolved, and where the second wave of black metal emerged from it, the lineage is pretty clear.

 

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You didn't really respond to my point, which is that the term "proto-black metal" would be more appropriate. Again, while those bands had elements of black metal, it's quite a stretch to say that Celtic Frost or Mercyful Fate are black metal. The difference between calling them black metal and calling Death death metal is that Death actually sounds like death metal. From the instrumentation, to the vocals, to the subject matter, Death were playing death metal. The same cannot be said of Mercyful Fate, Celtic Frost, or Venom. They are better defined as playing something else that influenced black metal. The exception is Bathory, who I do think can justifiably be considered black metal in their own right. 

 

As for who should be compared to who, I strongly disagree with you. It seems obvious to me that the bands that really define the black metal sound are those "second wave" black metal bands, like Darkthrone and Mayhem. They had all the qualities of the genre, including the trebly guitars, the shrieking vocals, the dark lo-fi atmosphere, and the demonic subject matter. If I want to determine whether or not a band is black metal, I compare them to bands like Mayhem, NOT Venom. The only first wave band that is really a good representation of black metal is Bathory. 

 

As for Venom's visual style, yes there are plenty of other black metal bands with a lot of visual flair. The visuals are still one of the defining characteristics of black metal. But what Venom was doing only vaguely resembled how later black metal bands would act, even if it was an obvious influence. The whole presentation makes more sense when you compare them to what other British metal bands of the time were doing. The British bands of the time were the NWOBHM bands. I don't think Venom was really a NWOBHM band, but that was still their cultural landscape, and there is clear visual resemblance between Venom and the NWOBHM bands.

[BlutAusNerd]

48 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:  

Nonsense. First wave black metal bands are connected by their black metal music, which was the inspiration for the second wave of black metal. You're looking at it backwards, Darkthrone and Mayhem should be measured up to the first wave bands that spawned the sound that they advanced (the former of which uses almost exclusively Celtic Frost and Bathory riffs in their most well known albums), not the other way around. That's not really any different from saying that Death isn't black metal because they don't sound like Cryptopsy, when Cryptopsy is only death metal because Death and others explored it first.

 

Regarding the image of Venom, they're hardly the only black metal band with over-the-top looks and antics. The second wave of black metal has been parodied ad nauseum due to exactly that, so it's safe to say that over-the-top theatrics are part and parcel to the black metal package. As far as looking at their scene for reference, typically I would say that this is a good starting point, but Venom are quite different from the NWOBHM bands whose scene they emerged from, much like Possessed setting themselves apart from the thrash scene despite being a Bay Area band, or Saint Vitus popping up in Southern California amid the hardcore punk boom and being signed to a hardcore punk label. The music is the most crucial identifying factor, and the music of Bathory and Celtic Frost makes them disciples of and contemporaries to Venom, as well as almost every other first wave black metal band. If you look at the whole first wave of black metal, how it evolved, and where the second wave of black metal emerged from it, the lineage is pretty clear.

 

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You didn't really respond to my point, which is that the term "proto-black metal" would be more appropriate. Again, while those bands had elements of black metal, it's quite a stretch to say that Celtic Frost or Mercyful Fate are black metal. The difference between calling them black metal and calling Death death metal is that Death actually sounds like death metal. From the instrumentation, to the vocals, to the subject matter, Death were playing death metal. The same cannot be said of Mercyful Fate, Celtic Frost, or Venom. They are better defined as playing something else that influenced black metal. The exception is Bathory, who I do think can justifiably be considered black metal in their own right. 

 

As for who should be compared to who, I strongly disagree with you. It seems obvious to me that the bands that really define the black metal sound are those "second wave" black metal bands, like Darkthrone and Mayhem. They had all the qualities of the genre, including the trebly guitars, the shrieking vocals, the dark lo-fi atmosphere, and the demonic subject matter. If I want to determine whether or not a band is black metal, I compare them to bands like Mayhem, NOT Venom. The only first wave band that is really a good representation of black metal is Bathory. 

 

As for Venom's visual style, yes there are plenty of other black metal bands with a lot of visual flair. The visuals are still one of the defining characteristics of black metal. But what Venom was doing only vaguely resembled how later black metal bands would act, even if it was an obvious influence. The whole presentation makes more sense when you compare them to what other British metal bands of the time were doing. The British bands of the time were the NWOBHM bands. I don't think Venom was really a NWOBHM band, but that was still their cultural landscape, and there is clear visual resemblance between Venom and the NWOBHM bands.

 

I addressed your point about "proto-black metal" with the first word of my response, but perhaps I should have clarified what "nonsense" was directed at. It was proto-black metal in that it created black metal, but the term tends to be used more as you're using it, which is relegating it to a mere influence rather than black metal itself. This is factually and historically inaccurate, which is why the term "first wave black metal" makes more sense, especially when distinguishing the second wave of black metal from it. It's not a stretch at all to say that Celtic Frost and Mercyful Fate are black metal, because they certainly were, which can be verified by the musicians that followed in their footsteps with making second wave black metal. Here's a link to validate my point, a compilation arranged by Fenriz of Darkthrone titled "Fenriz Presents: The Best of Old-School Black Metal". Take a look at the track listing.

 

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/various_artists_f2/fenriz_presents____the_best_of_old_school_black_metal/

 

That's "old-school black metal", not "proto-black metal", and I would say that Fenriz is probably a more reliable authority than you or I. The comparison between Death and Cryptopsy is not any different from what I'm talking about, because the tropes that you cited as being "qualities of the genre" weren't included until later, just as blast-beats, breakdowns, and indecipherable guttural vocals didn't exist in death metal at the dawning of the genre. Death didn't use those elements, but Cryptopsy did, so how does Death sound like death metal? The same way that Mercyful Fate and Celtic Frost sound like black metal. Follow the riffing styles, the song structures, the note selections/scales used, i.e. the true constituents of the genre itself, rather than aesthetics like guitar tone or production. Again, your measuring stick for the genre is a logical fallacy because of this. Again, regarding Venom, remember that the second wave didn't begin until 10 years after the release of Venom's first album. What can change in 10 years, and how far can the genre evolve? Well, the Death and Cryptopsy comparison could be a 9 year spread if you're looking at Scream Bloody Gore vs. None So Vile, the gap from Trouble's Psalm 9 to Thergothon's Stream From the Heavens would be a good 10 year stretch comparison in the doom field, or how about the difference between Kill 'em All and Voivod's Dimension Hatröss, a mere 5 years apart? Well, plenty can change, but if you can look past surface level aesthetics to the songwriting and structure, the lineage is plain to see as I mentioned before. You have to take the whole history of the sound into account, and not where the sound ended up after several evolutions and developments when gauging it.

 

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[Requiem]

23 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

 

I addressed your point about "proto-black metal" with the first word of my response, but perhaps I should have clarified what "nonsense" was directed at. It was proto-black metal in that it created black metal, but the term tends to be used more as you're using it, which is relegating it to a mere influence rather than black metal itself. This is factually and historically inaccurate, which is why the term "first wave black metal" makes more sense, especially when distinguishing the second wave of black metal from it. It's not a stretch at all to say that Celtic Frost and Mercyful Fate are black metal, because they certainly were, which can be verified by the musicians that followed in their footsteps with making second wave black metal. Here's a link to validate my point, a compilation arranged by Fenriz of Darkthrone titled "Fenriz Presents: The Best of Old-School Black Metal". Take a look at the track listing.

 

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/various_artists_f2/fenriz_presents____the_best_of_old_school_black_metal/

 

That's "old-school black metal", not "proto-black metal", and I would say that Fenriz is probably a more reliable authority than you or I. The comparison between Death and Cryptopsy is not any different from what I'm talking about, because the tropes that you cited as being "qualities of the genre" weren't included until later, just as blast-beats, breakdowns, and indecipherable guttural vocals didn't exist in death metal at the dawning of the genre. Death didn't use those elements, but Cryptopsy did, so how does Death sound like death metal? The same way that Mercyful Fate and Celtic Frost sound like black metal. Follow the riffing styles, the song structures, the note selections/scales used, i.e. the true constituents of the genre itself, rather than aesthetics like guitar tone or production. Again, your measuring stick for the genre is a logical fallacy because of this. Again, regarding Venom, remember that the second wave didn't begin until 10 years after the release of Venom's first album. What can change in 10 years, and how far can the genre evolve? Well, the Death and Cryptopsy comparison could be a 9 year spread if you're looking at Scream Bloody Gore vs. None So Vile, the gap from Trouble's Psalm 9 to Thergothon's Stream From the Heavens would be a good 10 year stretch comparison in the doom field, or how about the difference between Kill 'em All and Voivod's Dimension Hatröss, a mere 5 years apart? Well, plenty can change, but if you can look past surface level aesthetics to the songwriting and structure, the lineage is plain to see as I mentioned before. You have to take the whole history of the sound into account, and not where the sound ended up after several evolutions and developments when gauging it.

 

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Your reference to Fenriz's 'Best of Old School Black Metal' caused me to pull it off the shelves and read through the liner notes again to see what the great man says. Fenriz says things like: 

"One can analyse a piece of music and deduct that it is black metal, but black metal is a feeling. And that feeling cannot be analysed". 

on Merciful Fate: "The beauty of black metal in the eighties is that it wasn't one sound. At all.... I instantly felt what I later would come to understand was the black metal feeling". 

on Sodom: "(black metal) was often more about attitude than melody".

These are all pretty nebulous observations that sort of suggest subjectivity rather than any definite sense of genre. He clearly acknowledges that their was no common sound. It was only later, once the second wave started, that people like Fenriz and Euronymous started retrospectively calling these bands "black metal" - it wasn't a unifying term or concept that the bands themselves employed.

Euro and his mates looked around at the 80s metal scene and just picked bands who had an "aura" (that they were now consciously developing and refining - into a genre) and slapped them with the black metal tag.

Of course, many of these bands have black metal elements to their sound, and they're undoubtedly the founding fathers. I take nothing away from these bands, as they're awesome, and I'm sure they even felt some camaraderie between themselves regarding their attitude. But to me they are the prototypical bands of something that would become much more defined and, ultimately, specific: the genre called 'black metal'. 

That's just my feeling anyway. If someone comes up to me and starts talking about Venom and Merciful Fate being black metal, I'll still have a beer with them. 

 

 

[RelentlessOblivion]

I think there is enough in the evolution of black metal that we can comfortably include those first wave bands in the genre. Venom, to Hellhammer, to Celtic Frost, to Bathory, to Tormentor, from there on to Mayhem and Darkthrone, on to Immortal and Inquisition. Obviously I've glossed over some bands here in the interests of time-saving.

[BlutAusNerd]

 

My interpretation of those words is fairly different. The unifying concept seems to be that the central quality of black metal is a feeling/atmosphere. That feeling is conjured by the music, and you can "analyse a piece of music and deduct that it is black metal", but "the beauty of black metal... is that it wasn't one sound". I omitted the 80's part of the quote because the same has been true of black metal since its inception, as with most genres of music. The feeling is what unifies the genre, but there are several ways to conjure that feeling, which explains how black metal has always been such a broad genre with a wide array of sounds on display. This is not to say that it is a lyrical theme as has been suggested elsewhere, rather that bands like Mercyful Fate, Mayhem, Blut Aus Nord, Celtic Frost, Emperor, etc... all reach the same goal by taking different paths, even if it is a different side of that goal when they arrive at it from another direction. I don't feel that his comments suggest subjectivity in the genre at all, but rather told of the genre's diversity from its creation in a time when it had reached a bit of a creative nadir (the comp is from 2004 IIRC).

 

 

As far as the "Euronymous and his mates" bit with cherry picking bands that they felt fit, I think that's giving them entirely too much credit. Let us not forget that, outside of the first wave black metal of Deathcrush, the first Norwegian black metal album didn't drop until A Blaze In the Northern Sky in 1992. Many second wave scenes had formed concurrently to the Norwegian scene, and in some cases, released albums ahead of them. The Scandinavian scenes were the ones to deviate the farthest from the roots of black metal initially, with the early scenes from Greece, France, the US, Japan, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, Italy, etc... all bearing a great deal more resemblance to the black metal of old, showing a more fluid transition from the first wave to the second. This is not to say that the early Norwegian second wave was lacking in first wave material, but people don't seem to notice because of the production values, and because many of those bands abandoned those roots quickly to expand on elements that were mostly introduced in the second wave. Seeing the rest of the picture is typically quite illuminating, and even though I've had this argument several times over the years, it has only become more clear to me as I've continued to fill in the gaps in the progression of the genre.

 

 

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[Ecthelion]

16 hours ago, Requiem said:

 

Your reference to Fenriz's 'Best of Old School Black Metal' caused me to pull it off the shelves and read through the liner notes again to see what the great man says. Fenriz says things like: 

"One can analyse a piece of music and deduct that it is black metal, but black metal is a feeling. And that feeling cannot be analysed". 

on Merciful Fate: "The beauty of black metal in the eighties is that it wasn't one sound. At all.... I instantly felt what I later would come to understand was the black metal feeling". 

on Sodom: "(black metal) was often more about attitude than melody".

These are all pretty nebulous observations that sort of suggest subjectivity rather than any definite sense of genre. He clearly acknowledges that their was no common sound. It was only later, once the second wave started, that people like Fenriz and Euronymous started retrospectively calling these bands "black metal" - it wasn't a unifying term or concept that the bands themselves employed.

Euro and his mates looked around at the 80s metal scene and just picked bands who had an "aura" (that they were now consciously developing and refining - into a genre) and slapped them with the black metal tag.

Of course, many of these bands have black metal elements to their sound, and they're undoubtedly the founding fathers. I take nothing away from these bands, as they're awesome, and I'm sure they even felt some camaraderie between themselves regarding their attitude. But to me they are the prototypical bands of something that would become much more defined and, ultimately, specific: the genre called 'black metal'. 

That's just my feeling anyway. If someone comes up to me and starts talking about Venom and Merciful Fate being black metal, I'll still have a beer with them. 

That could really be stated about black metal as whole, honestly. It's a bit more defined with the second wave but still rather nebulous.

[BlutAusNerd]

Again, it's not nebulous so much as varied. The same could be said for death metal and other genres though, and you can reach the feeling by using a wide variety of sounds, tempos, techniques etc...

 

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[salmonellapancake]

On 7/20/2017 at 4:23 PM, BlutAusNerd said:

 

I addressed your point about "proto-black metal" with the first word of my response, but perhaps I should have clarified what "nonsense" was directed at. It was proto-black metal in that it created black metal, but the term tends to be used more as you're using it, which is relegating it to a mere influence rather than black metal itself. This is factually and historically inaccurate, which is why the term "first wave black metal" makes more sense, especially when distinguishing the second wave of black metal from it. It's not a stretch at all to say that Celtic Frost and Mercyful Fate are black metal, because they certainly were, which can be verified by the musicians that followed in their footsteps with making second wave black metal. Here's a link to validate my point, a compilation arranged by Fenriz of Darkthrone titled "Fenriz Presents: The Best of Old-School Black Metal". Take a look at the track listing.

 

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/various_artists_f2/fenriz_presents____the_best_of_old_school_black_metal/

 

That's "old-school black metal", not "proto-black metal", and I would say that Fenriz is probably a more reliable authority than you or I. The comparison between Death and Cryptopsy is not any different from what I'm talking about, because the tropes that you cited as being "qualities of the genre" weren't included until later, just as blast-beats, breakdowns, and indecipherable guttural vocals didn't exist in death metal at the dawning of the genre. Death didn't use those elements, but Cryptopsy did, so how does Death sound like death metal? The same way that Mercyful Fate and Celtic Frost sound like black metal. Follow the riffing styles, the song structures, the note selections/scales used, i.e. the true constituents of the genre itself, rather than aesthetics like guitar tone or production. Again, your measuring stick for the genre is a logical fallacy because of this. Again, regarding Venom, remember that the second wave didn't begin until 10 years after the release of Venom's first album. What can change in 10 years, and how far can the genre evolve? Well, the Death and Cryptopsy comparison could be a 9 year spread if you're looking at Scream Bloody Gore vs. None So Vile, the gap from Trouble's Psalm 9 to Thergothon's Stream From the Heavens would be a good 10 year stretch comparison in the doom field, or how about the difference between Kill 'em All and Voivod's Dimension Hatröss, a mere 5 years apart? Well, plenty can change, but if you can look past surface level aesthetics to the songwriting and structure, the lineage is plain to see as I mentioned before. You have to take the whole history of the sound into account, and not where the sound ended up after several evolutions and developments when gauging it.

 

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Thank you for citing the Fenriz Old School Black Metal compilation. Not only do I love it, but it is also a reliable, objective resource which shows what Black Metal truly is. That and this video of Fenriz are what I use to understand the foundations and constituents of Black Metal:

 

16 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

 

My interpretation of those words is fairly different. The unifying concept seems to be that the central quality of black metal is a feeling/atmosphere. That feeling is conjured by the music, and you can "analyse a piece of music and deduct that it is black metal", but "the beauty of black metal... is that it wasn't one sound". I omitted the 80's part of the quote because the same has been true of black metal since its inception, as with most genres of music. The feeling is what unifies the genre, but there are several ways to conjure that feeling, which explains how black metal has always been such a broad genre with a wide array of sounds on display. This is not to say that it is a lyrical theme as has been suggested elsewhere, rather that bands like Mercyful Fate, Mayhem, Blut Aus Nord, Celtic Frost, Emperor, etc... all reach the same goal by taking different paths, even if it is a different side of that goal when they arrive at it from another direction. I don't feel that his comments suggest subjectivity in the genre at all, but rather told of the genre's diversity from its creation in a time when it had reached a bit of a creative nadir (the comp is from 2004 IIRC).

 

 

 

 

As far as the "Euronymous and his mates" bit with cherry picking bands that they felt fit, I think that's giving them entirely too much credit. Let us not forget that, outside of the first wave black metal of Deathcrush, the first Norwegian black metal album didn't drop until A Blaze In the Northern Sky in 1992. Many second wave scenes had formed concurrently to the Norwegian scene, and in some cases, released albums ahead of them. The Scandinavian scenes were the ones to deviate the farthest from the roots of black metal initially, with the early scenes from Greece, France, the US, Japan, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, Italy, etc... all bearing a great deal more resemblance to the black metal of old, showing a more fluid transition from the first wave to the second. This is not to say that the early Norwegian second wave was lacking in first wave material, but people don't seem to notice because of the production values, and because many of those bands abandoned those roots quickly to expand on elements that were mostly introduced in the second wave. Seeing the rest of the picture is typically quite illuminating, and even though I've had this argument several times over the years, it has only become more clear to me as I've continued to fill in the gaps in the progression of the genre.

 

 

 

 

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I couldn't agree more with that last point about the other second wave scenes which were ahead of Norway. Root and Master's Hammer are a couple of my favorite examples of that.

[Requiem]

2 hours ago, salmonellapancake said:

Thank you for citing the Fenriz Old School Black Metal compilation. Not only do I love it, but it is also a reliable, objective resource which shows what Black Metal truly is. That and this video of Fenriz are what I use to understand the foundations and constituents of Black Metal:

 

I couldn't agree more with that last point about the other second wave scenes which were ahead of Norway. Root and Master's Hammer are a couple of my favorite examples of that.

I see Slayer written up on that board. Great black metal band, Slayer....

Also, I wasn't claiming that the Norwegian scene was the first of the second wave to appear - I was suggesting that when it came to calling things 'black metal', the naming took place by people in the 90s looking back at the 80s. I don't really care who it was who did the naming, but I'm trying to point out that no one was calling the first wave bands "black metal" in the sense that we know the name now. I think BAN misinterpreted what I was trying to say on this, and I was going to let it go, but I see Salmonella is now running with it. This doesn't mean that bands weren't black metal, but it was a minor point in my post that I wanted to clarify.

Black metal (any era!) is varied, and that's definitely to its credit. Even taking the Norwegian bands, look how different Burzum, Darkthrone, Satyricon, Emperor and Mayhem all were from each other. Just amazing. 

 

 

[BlutAusNerd]

People certainly were calling bands black metal in the 80's, to the point that the Bay Area thrash band Forbidden Evil changed their name to Forbidden because they didn't want people to think that they were a black metal band. It's not as though the label was retroactively applied, at least not in most cases, but most metal fans of the time thought of black metal as a joke and largely disregarded it. This was due in part to the antics/over-the-top imagery of some of the bands, the cheesy satanic lyrics, and the admittedly sloppy playing of most of the bands that developed the genre. If it was being retroactively applied, then it's remarkable that all of these bands from scenes around the world all happened to get the same idea at roughly the same time and identified themselves as a genre based on the "unrelated sounds" of their ancestors.

 

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Also, regarding Slayer, Show No Mercy and Hell Awaits are a lot closer to Melissa and Obsessed By Cruelty than Ride the Lightning and Spreading the Disease. They were still pretty thrashy before becoming fully thrash on Reign in Blood, but there was definitely a lot of black metal happening in their sound early on.

 

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[salmonellapancake]

6 hours ago, Requiem said:

I see Slayer written up on that board. Great black metal band, Slayer....

Also, I wasn't claiming that the Norwegian scene was the first of the second wave to appear - I was suggesting that when it came to calling things 'black metal', the naming took place by people in the 90s looking back at the 80s. I don't really care who it was who did the naming, but I'm trying to point out that no one was calling the first wave bands "black metal" in the sense that we know the name now. I think BAN misinterpreted what I was trying to say on this, and I was going to let it go, but I see Salmonella is now running with it. This doesn't mean that bands weren't black metal, but it was a minor point in my post that I wanted to clarify.

Black metal (any era!) is varied, and that's definitely to its credit. Even taking the Norwegian bands, look how different Burzum, Darkthrone, Satyricon, Emperor and Mayhem all were from each other. Just amazing. 

 

 

Well yeah, Slayer's first two albums influnced just about every Extreme Metal band out there to some extent. And in their early days, they had some face paint, spikes, and the works. They were very much Black Metal at the start.

And even in the early Sodom song "Blasphemer", there was a line "Black Metal is the game I play", so it seems like they knew very well that they were making Black Metal music as early as '85. Not to be contentious, though, just giving my perspective.

[Requiem]

2 hours ago, salmonellapancake said:

Well yeah, Slayer's first two albums influnced just about every Extreme Metal band out there to some extent. And in their early days, they had some face paint, spikes, and the works. They were very much Black Metal at the start.

And even in the early Sodom song "Blasphemer", there was a line "Black Metal is the game I play", so it seems like they knew very well that they were making Black Metal music as early as '85. Not to be contentious, though, just giving my perspective.

There was also some random British band who had an album called 'Black Metal' I think. Not sure about that though...

I do actually want to expand my first wave collection a bit. It's very Bathory/Celtic Frost/Venom heavy at the moment. Tormentor, for instance, are amazing but I've only got them on compilations. Same with early Destruction and Sodom. I think they'd sit nicely in the 'proto-black metal' section of my CD collection.

 

[RelentlessOblivion]

4 hours ago, Requiem said:

There was also some random British band who had an album called 'Black Metal' I think. Not sure about that though...

I do actually want to expand my first wave collection a bit. It's very Bathory/Celtic Frost/Venom heavy at the moment. Tormentor, for instance, are amazing but I've only got them on compilations. Same with early Destruction and Sodom. I think they'd sit nicely in the 'first wave black metal' section of my CD collection.

 

Fixed that for you, you're welcome.

 

As has been pointed out there is an obvious lineage, an evolution of the black metal genre, which can be charted out. Early Bathory owing quite a lot to Venom and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost. Mercyful Fate bringing more melody to the fore which no doubt impacted on Tormentor later. The first Mayhem release pretty much being a Bathory clone. Just some examples. Obviously we then have Darkthrone furthering the ideas of Tormentor and Bathory, Ulver merging elements of Bathory's later BM albums and some of the viking metal ideas (albeit in more of a folk metal application). Rotting Christ taking some cues from the more melodic Mercyful Fate in crafting their own wonderful brand of BM. The first wave of black metal is called that because there is a link.

 

Ignoring or precluding them from that history would be akin to declaring Black Sabbath and Deep Purple proto-heavy metal for not featuring twin lead guitars, melodic riffs, and soaring vocals. In that example we still hear the progression of sound from Sabbath to Priest to Maiden.

[BlutAusNerd]

@ Requiem (since the quote function isn't working on Tapatalk)

 

Yep, there was that British band who birthed the genre and then gave it a name, who were they again? [emoji41]

 

I have a ton of first wave black metal suggestions if you are looking to expand that area of your collection, I guess I just assumed that you weren't really into the sound based on the black metal that you typically discuss. Early Sodom, Destruction, and Kreator are all great, and all of them became great thrash bands too. They weren't the only Germans involved either, the band Poison (the good one [emoji12]) was pretty great, and the first albums from Iron Angel and Running Wild both had some blackened fervor among their speed metal stylings. The Italian band Bulldozer is excellent Venom worship, as is the American band NME, though the latter were quite raw and sloppy. The South American scene is rife with entries in the field, like the first Sepultura album and EP, Vulcano's Bloody Vengeance, Sextrash's Sexual Carnage, and of course, the mighty Sarcófago. Their album The Laws of Scourge is more of a death/thrash album, and a fairly technical one at that, but INRI and Rotting are sick black metal. Tormentor is essential first wave listening IMO, Attila is of course a beast, and the music is stunning. Clearly the source of the folk derived melodies are accelerated tremolo picking that the second wave would employ, Anno Domini is way ahead of its time. Flames of Hell from Iceland was a newer discovery for me, but a killer and unique one, merging influences from the likes of Venom, Bathory, Celtic Frost, Sodom, etc..., but in a very unique and unexpected way. Morbid from Sweden should be much better known, considering it's the first band of Dead from Mayhem and Uffe Cederlund/LG Petrov from Nihilist/Entombed, but for some reason seem to be lost in the pages of history for many. Other Swedish luminaries from the first wave (aside from Bathory, of course) would be Mefisto, Treblinka (not an NSBM band despite the name, rather the precursor band to Tiamat), and Grotesque (black/death metal precursor band to At the Gates with the famous artist Necrolord and Shamaatae of Arckanum in the lineup). Australia's Slaughter Lord and Sadistik Exekution could also enter the conversation, even though Sadistik Exekution is more death metal than black metal, and Slaughter Lord was kind of a black/death/thrash hybrid. There's also Baphomet (the one from Utah) and Profanatica from the US, and droves of others that I'm either forgetting or unfamiliar with. Hopefully this helps, and let me know if you come up with any others in your search as well, I'm always on the lookout for good old black metal.

 

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[deathstorm]

 I got a question does the term blacken death metal combined  the elements  black metal with death metal  or it's just death metal with black metal lyrics 

[SenedeSwaere]

31 minutes ago, deathstorm said:

 I got a question does the term blacken death metal combined  the elements  black metal with death metal  or it's just death metal with black metal lyrics 

The former.

[deathstorm]

37 minutes ago, SenedeSwaere said:

The former.

Needs more definition thanks 

[SenedeSwaere]

Well, Blackened Death Metal (or Black/Death Metal) is just a blend of both genres, it doesn't matter which one is more prominent. Death Metal with "Black Metal" lyrics would still simply be Death Metal – just as Black Metal with other lyrics than you would typically expect is still Black Metal. There are BM bands with lyrics about philosophy, astrophysics, fantasy literature, gore themes, mental disorders... hell, there's even a band that sings about sewers. While some genres have a pool of lyrical themes you typically associate with it, the genre doesn't change because a band decides to sing about something that is untypical for that genre (unless you want to be super specific).

There are exceptions, of course, like that useless NSBM genre (National Socialist Black Metal). But political bands are a different topic. Unless the lyrical themes are (like in the case of NSBM) something drastic that is the main aspect for the sub-genre for one reason or the other, the music itself is still what defines the genre.

[deathstorm]

13 minutes ago, SenedeSwaere said:

Well, Blackened Death Metal (or Black/Death Metal) is just a blend of both genres, it doesn't matter which one is more prominent. Death Metal with "Black Metal" lyrics would still simply be Death Metal – just as Black Metal with other lyrics than you would typically expect is still Black Metal. There are BM bands with lyrics about philosophy, astrophysics, fantasy literature, gore themes, mental disorders... hell, there's even a band that sings about sewers. While some genres have a pool of lyrical themes you typically associate with it, the genre doesn't change because a band decides to sing about something that is untypical for that genre (unless you want to be super specific).

There are exceptions, of course, like that useless NSBM genre (National Socialist Black Metal). But political bands are a different topic. Unless the lyrical themes are (like in the case of NSBM) something drastic that is the main aspect for the sub-genre for one reason or the other, the music itself is still what defines the genre.

Thanks for the  information  swede

 

[BlutAusNerd]

NSBM is a kind of raw, primitive, and often punky black metal sometimes mixed with RAC, though the label is often applied to any black metal band with xenophobic lyrics. This is an important distinction to make, since lyrics don't dictate genre, sound does. Similarly, not just any band with depressive lyrics would be DSBM, DSBM denotes a kind of playing and different melodic palette than standard black metal.

 

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[SenedeSwaere]

17 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

NSBM is a kind of raw, primitive, and often punky black metal sometimes mixed with RAC, though the label is often applied to any black metal band with xenophobic lyrics. This is an important distinction to make, since lyrics don't dictate genre, sound does. Similarly, not just any band with depressive lyrics would be DSBM, DSBM denotes a kind of playing and different melodic palette than standard black metal.

 

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Unfortunately the label NSBM is way too often applied to any Black Metal band that plays in Germany, even to those that have absolutely nothing to do with these ideologies. There are actually a whole lot of people who simply try to cancel underground BM concerts just because they can.

[deathstorm]

30 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

NSBM is a kind of raw, primitive, and often punky black metal sometimes mixed with RAC, though the label is often applied to any black metal band with xenophobic lyrics. This is an important distinction to make, since lyrics don't dictate genre, sound does. Similarly, not just any band with depressive lyrics would be DSBM, DSBM denotes a kind of playing and different melodic palette than standard black metal.

 

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Thanks ban for explaining that

[Requiem]

18 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

@ Requiem (since the quote function isn't working on Tapatalk)

 

Yep, there was that British band who birthed the genre and then gave it a name, who were they again?

 

I have a ton of first wave black metal suggestions if you are looking to expand that area of your collection, I guess I just assumed that you weren't really into the sound based on the black metal that you typically discuss. Early Sodom, Destruction, and Kreator are all great, and all of them became great thrash bands too. They weren't the only Germans involved either, the band Poison (the good one ) was pretty great, and the first albums from Iron Angel and Running Wild both had some blackened fervor among their speed metal stylings. The Italian band Bulldozer is excellent Venom worship, as is the American band NME, though the latter were quite raw and sloppy. The South American scene is rife with entries in the field, like the first Sepultura album and EP, Vulcano's Bloody Vengeance, Sextrash's Sexual Carnage, and of course, the mighty Sarcófago. Their album The Laws of Scourge is more of a death/thrash album, and a fairly technical one at that, but INRI and Rotting are sick black metal. Tormentor is essential first wave listening IMO, Attila is of course a beast, and the music is stunning. Clearly the source of the folk derived melodies are accelerated tremolo picking that the second wave would employ, Anno Domini is way ahead of its time. Flames of Hell from Iceland was a newer discovery for me, but a killer and unique one, merging influences from the likes of Venom, Bathory, Celtic Frost, Sodom, etc..., but in a very unique and unexpected way. Morbid from Sweden should be much better known, considering it's the first band of Dead from Mayhem and Uffe Cederlund/LG Petrov from Nihilist/Entombed, but for some reason seem to be lost in the pages of history for many. Other Swedish luminaries from the first wave (aside from Bathory, of course) would be Mefisto, Treblinka (not an NSBM band despite the name, rather the precursor band to Tiamat), and Grotesque (black/death metal precursor band to At the Gates with the famous artist Necrolord and Shamaatae of Arckanum in the lineup). Australia's Slaughter Lord and Sadistik Exekution could also enter the conversation, even though Sadistik Exekution is more death metal than black metal, and Slaughter Lord was kind of a black/death/thrash hybrid. There's also Baphomet (the one from Utah) and Profanatica from the US, and droves of others that I'm either forgetting or unfamiliar with. Hopefully this helps, and let me know if you come up with any others in your search as well, I'm always on the lookout for good old black metal.

 

 

Paragraphing function not working either?

Let's see now. Apart from Celtic Frost, Bathory and Venom, I own Morbid's 'December Moon' that Dead made, and I've got the Fenriz compilation with a lot of those bands. I think that's about it for me when it comes to ownership of first wave material.

I'm really interested in purchasing 'INRI' by Sarcofogo, the Tormentor album ('Elizabeth Bathory' is one amazing song. Dissection did a cover of it - which I have - but it's nowhere near as good as the original) as well as early Destruction and Sodom as I mentioned. I'm familiar with Sad Ex and don't care much for them - at least I didn't back in the day. 

I've heard a lot of this stuff over the years and it's never really done a great deal for me, but if I'm in the right mood it's great. I'll definitely forever be a second wave poser though.

20 hours ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

Fixed that for you, you're welcome.

 

As has been pointed out there is an obvious lineage, an evolution of the black metal genre, which can be charted out. Early Bathory owing quite a lot to Venom and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost. Mercyful Fate bringing more melody to the fore which no doubt impacted on Tormentor later. The first Mayhem release pretty much being a Bathory clone. Just some examples. Obviously we then have Darkthrone furthering the ideas of Tormentor and Bathory, Ulver merging elements of Bathory's later BM albums and some of the viking metal ideas (albeit in more of a folk metal application). Rotting Christ taking some cues from the more melodic Mercyful Fate in crafting their own wonderful brand of BM. The first wave of black metal is called that because there is a link.

 

Ignoring or precluding them from that history would be akin to declaring Black Sabbath and Deep Purple proto-heavy metal for not featuring twin lead guitars, melodic riffs, and soaring vocals. In that example we still hear the progression of sound from Sabbath to Priest to Maiden.

Calm down, no one's redacting these bands from history, and we're all familiar with the history of black metal. I did get a chuckle from your cunning re-editing, however

[RelentlessOblivion]

But isn't it diminishing their significance by calling them proto-bm? It is much like people who insist bands such as Deep Purple are proto-metal downplaying their significance and influence.