Let's talk electronics

[Midi]

In my experience, when electronic influences pop up as a conversation topic, it's not rare to see that they are being held in contempt by metalheads. Personally, I don't see why we should consider electronic music inferior to instrumental music; music has been evolving since its birth and I don't think there's a point in denigrating even the smallest part of that evolution.

What are your thoughts on this matter?
Is electronic music less 'valuable' or ... than instrumental music?
Could you accept electronic influences (beyond synths and drum computers and such) as an integral part of metal?

[RelentlessOblivion]

If those elements add to the music being crafted I see no reason to complain. Too often though such elements are simply a gimmick adding nothing to the music. Of course this isn't isolated to electronica influences - keyboards, folk instruments, etc are also used in often detrimental manners.

[Iceni]

I agree with RO, it's not necessarily an inherent gripe. More likely I'd think it comes from a distaste for electronica as the saveur du jour for lousy pop - and a general evaluation of the industrial metal scene. Most bands in the genre tend to be pretty painfully poppy even if they're reasonably good. Bands like Godflesh, early Fear Factory, OLD, Azure Emote or Thy Catafalque, bands that are metal first and foremost and then electronic, are quite rare to my knowledge.

[FatherAlabaster]

Midi, I disagree with some of your points. I know plenty of metalheads who listen to industrial and other electronic music, and there's been crossover between the two for decades. This covers the spectrum from pop metal to avant-garde, from soothing to abrasive, and ranges from something as simple as background keyboards to something as deep as Ulver's "Themes from the Marriage of Heaven and Hell". Swans used to play with tape loops in the 80s. Ahumado Granujo splices bits of dance music into their grind songs. Samael played live with a drum machine. Cybergrind, industrial black metal, etc etc...

There are so many possibilities with electronics that they're easy to misuse. If they're mixed inappropriately, they can overpower and ruin the texture of live instruments; fake string and vocal patches are usually downright cheesy; and there's a blurry distinction between background use, full integration, and an excessive reliance on prefab sounds and prerecorded parts that damages the integrity and sense of danger/unpredictability that's part of the draw of a live performance. Usually, programmed drums suck live (Havohej was boring as fuck, Thrones would have been better with real drums); but Melt Banana was amazing because of the theatrics of their performance, and because the vocalist was triggering each section by hand. There's no rule that applies all the time. 

Bottom line, integrating electronics successfully is harder than people think. It's up to a band to determine how or whether they work in the context of their music. 

[RelentlessOblivion]

From there it falls on the listener to determine whether the sound being crafted is one they can enjoy.

 

For the record Havohej's music doesn't seem like it would translate well into the live setting to begin with (at least to my ears).

[Midi]

Midi, I disagree with some of your points. I know plenty of metalheads who listen to industrial and other electronic music, and there's been crossover between the two for decades. This covers the spectrum from pop metal to avant-garde, from soothing to abrasive, and ranges from something as simple as background keyboards to something as deep as Ulver's "Themes from the Marriage of Heaven and Hell". Swans used to play with tape loops in the 80s. Ahumado Granujo splices bits of dance music into their grind songs. Samael played live with a drum machine. Cybergrind, industrial black metal, etc etc...

There are so many possibilities with electronics that they're easy to misuse. If they're mixed inappropriately, they can overpower and ruin the texture of live instruments; fake string and vocal patches are usually downright cheesy; and there's a blurry distinction between background use, full integration, and an excessive reliance on prefab sounds and prerecorded parts that damages the integrity and sense of danger/unpredictability that's part of the draw of a live performance. Usually, programmed drums suck live (Havohej was boring as fuck, Thrones would have been better with real drums); but Melt Banana was amazing because of the theatrics of their performance, and because the vocalist was triggering each section by hand. There's no rule that applies all the time. 

Bottom line, integrating electronics successfully is harder than people think. It's up to a band to determine how or whether they work in the context of their music. 

I fail to see where you disagreed to be honest?

[FatherAlabaster]

In my experience, when electronic influences pop up as a conversation topic, it's not rare to see that they are being held in contempt by metalheads. Personally, I don't see why we should consider electronic music inferior to instrumental music; music has been evolving since its birth and I don't think there's a point in denigrating even the smallest part of that evolution.

This whole thing here. You say it's "not rare" that electronics are "held in contempt" by "metalheads". That implies that most people who enjoy metal are opposed to electronic influences across the board. That's not true, and saying it the way that you did ignores the very wide range of successful experiments in various subgenres over the past thirty years or so. There are some metal purists who don't enjoy electronics on principle, but the same could be said of any genre. 

[Midi]

This whole thing here. You say it's "not rare" that electronics are "held in contempt" by "metalheads". That implies that most people who enjoy metal are opposed to electronic influences across the board. That's not true, and saying it the way that you did ignores the very wide range of successful experiments in various subgenres over the past thirty years or so. There are some metal purists who don't enjoy electronics on principle, but the same could be said of any genre. 

I mentioned this was purely based on my experience, which suggest this concerns the metalheads in my direct environment. I don't think I denied the fact there were loads of succesful examples of the integration of electronics in metal either.

[FatherAlabaster]

Then you should hang out with different metalheads.  You imply a cultural bias against electronic music and a sharp distinction between "electronic" and "instrumental" music; at best, those are oversimplifications. Nearly everyone I know would evaluate any particular album on its individual merit. I know a lot of musicians who are opposed to the kind of studio fakery that lets people record parts they can't pull off live, but I don't know anyone who denigrates electronic music. 

[Midi]

Then you should hang out with different metalheads.  You imply a cultural bias against electronic music and a sharp distinction between "electronic" and "instrumental" music; at best, those are oversimplifications. Nearly everyone I know would evaluate any particular album on its individual merit. I know a lot of musicians who are opposed to the kind of studio fakery that lets people record parts they can't pull off live, but I don't know anyone who denigrates electronic music. 

I'd like to apologize if it seems as if I tried to say an entire (sub)culture automatically discriminates a particular musical influence. I can assure you I didn't start this topic with the wrong intentions; My absence from this forum hasn't exactly benefited my English, which is still my least developed language (a weak excuse, I know, but not less true). How would you have posed the question so that it would have been more clear, if I may ask? 

[Avaline]

It just so happens, only yesterday ive seen a topic on a fb metalhead group, where people were arguing how "techno" and "rave" parties suck and so on. : D id say that a lot of "old school" metalheads mind mixing electro with metal. Based on no research at all - id say most of these people are strict heavy and thrash listeners. : ) the "true" metalheads heh..or the younger ones that barely just got in to the genre. Based on my experience. I think this type of oppositon is what Midi is referring to.

I personally love it if a band can mix electro so it just merges with other instruments and doesnt particularly stand out (unless its a genre thing). But i dont like cheesy keyboards everywhere. It should be incorporated through the whole song (as a part of the industrial electro genre, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kllqMOLE5JE) or just added for a bit of melody, like in melodic death (where its not supposed to stand out). But then again i dont mind electronics. I dont like techno, house and stuff like that, thats way too soft for me, but i do like hardcore.

[MacabreEternal]

As a listener of darkwave, retro-electro etc I don't mind the notion of electronics in metal as long as it is done well and done not just to be different.  I also am partial to a noise/power electronics record every now and again.  Anything by Nordvargr or Cauldhame normally pleases me muchly.  Zero Tolerance magazine normally do a whole section each issue about industrial/power electronic/dark ambient releases/artists alongside the more traditional metal coverage associated within its pages.

Edited July 30, 2015 by MacabreEternal

[Black Milk]

I dont often find myself digging much metal that uses electronic elements, but I do enjoy certain deposits of electronic music. Namely artists like Excision and Datsik, who use ultra low bass and synths with dark atmospheres in a manner that IMO falls pretty well between the heaviness of metal and the catchiness of rap, which are the two genres I primarily listen to. 

I can think of a few cool instances where bands like Berzerker and Ministry used some electronic breaks, long as its done tastefully I can fucks with it, but as FA already said its really easy to misuse techniques while crossing genres